Reserves questions

[Squirrelloid]

Okay, the main rulebook says that you can place no more than half your units into reserves, round up.

 

RESOLVED (1) Do independent characters join units before or after calculating this? Ie, is the IC a separate unit for the purposes of figuring how many units you can place into reserves or not? (Nevermind, this is clearly answered, see 2a for where my real confusion is)

 

RESOLVED (2) If, having designated certain units as being in reserve in accordance with the rules, can you then place a unit that was in the 'not in reserves' portion of your army into a transport which is compelled to start in reserves (ie, a flyer like the Stormraven?). Or if you want to place a unit in such a transport, does it not count as a unit that could be deployed for the purposes of determining how many total units you can place in reserves? Ie, in what order do you assign units to transports and calculate the number of units you can place in reserve?

 

DISPUTED (2a) Similarly, if ICs count as separate units, what happens if you join an IC to a unit that is in reserves if it could not also be in reserves. (ie, if you only have 2 non-compulsory reserve units, an IC and a squad, letting you place one of those units in reserves, what happens when you join the IC to that unit?) What happens if you have 3 units, including the IC, and nominate the other two units to be held in reserves, then join the IC to a unit in a drop pod or similar?

 

RESOLVED (3) Do you make the decision to combat squad units before or after choosing units to place in reserve?

 

DISPUTED (4) My codex's rules for Terminator Armor state that "They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules". Does this mean that I can place units in terminator armor into reserves even when the normal reserve rules would require some of them to deploy, since they can *always* start in reserves?

 

RESOLVED (4a) How does this work if i have Terminator and non-Terminator units which count towards determining how many can start in reserves? Can I assign the terminators to the deploy group and then withhold them in reserves as per the armor rules? Ie, if i have 1 non-terminator and 2 terminator armored units that could deploy, can i place the non-terminator unit in reserves, and then elect to withhold the terminators as per their armor rules?

 

Basically, the order of operations in which things get divvied up between reserves and deployed isn't very clear. Is there a single well-defined procedure, or do you get to choose the order in which these things are decided, and can thus manipulate it to your advantage?

 

EDIT: noting status of various questions, to avoid unnecessary duplication

[Fibonacci]

If you need some order of opperations to get the units in reserves you are probably doing something wrong.

 

That said ...

(2) IC and squad = 1 unit.  If you have 2 troops and an IC you can have 2 trooops in reserve, IC deployed; troop and IC in reserves seperatly, second troops deployed; or troop and IC joined in resrves, second troop deployed. 

 

(3) combat squad before going into reserves

 

(4) No.  They may start in reserves even in missions that do now allow reserves (depricated rule since all missions allow reserves now) but they still count towards the 50% limit.  "May always" <> "Must"

[Dam13n]

All references are on BRB Page 124:

 

(2) - You calculate the number of units you have first - including Independent Characters and Non-dedicated Transports.  Excluding units that must be placed in reserve (drop pods for example)  If a unit has a Dedicated Transport, they are treated as a single unit for these purposes.  50% of these available units (rounding up) may be placed into reserves.

 

- eg a Captain, a Tactical Squad in Drop Pod, a Tactical Squad in Rhino, a Sternguard Squad and a Land Raider equals 5 units, 1 of which must be in reserve (Drop Pod, whether the squad is in it or not) leaving 4 units. Therefore 2 additional units can be kept in reserve (eg. the Sternguard Squad in the Land Raider - counting as 2 units).

 

In your example, the Storm Raven would be excluded from the 50% however the unit placed inside wouldn't, because the Storm Raven isn't a Dedicated Transport.

 

(2a) - you can only allocate an Independent Character in reserves to a Unit in reserves.  Because both the Character and Unit must both be in reserves in order to join up.

 

(3) - Combat Squadding occurs immediately before deployment and reserves are calculated during deployment- so they will count as 2 units for the purposes of calculating reserves.

 

(4) - They may always start in reserve - emphasis "may" - they still count towards the 50% limit because it's not a mandatory form of deployment, unlike drop pods and flyers.

 

(4a) - In your example you have 3 units - therefore 2 of them may be placed in reserve - your choice which.  You may not place all 3 in reserves (see 4 above)

 

It is quite clear IMO - Determine number of units (excluding those that have to start in reserve) - Determine 50% - Attach Characters/Units/Transports

 

eg - I have 9 units plus 2 flyers - I therefore can place 5 units in reserve (in addition to the 2 flyers) - I can then attach units (say, a Captain, Sternguard Squad and Land Raider (total 3 of my 5 units)) - once all reserves have been declared and allocated I can move onto the next part of the deployment procedure.

 

Hope this is clear.

[Squirrelloid]

If you need some order of opperations to get the units in reserves you are probably doing something wrong.

 

That said ...

(2) IC and squad = 1 unit.  If you have 2 troops and an IC you can have 2 trooops in reserve, IC deployed; troop and IC in reserves seperatly, second troops deployed; or troop and IC joined in resrves, second troop deployed. 

 

That's actually patently false.  The main rulebook says "Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not" (p124, Preparing Reserves).  So ICs always count as a unit for the purposes of determining how many you may hold in reserves, regardless of which squad they end up joining.  Which is why I said that was explicitly answered.

 

(3) combat squad before going into reserves

 

Is there a source for this?  (It's obviously not in my 5th edition codex, and it's not in the main rulebook).

 

(4) No.  They may start in reserves even in missions that do now allow reserves (depricated rule since all missions allow reserves now) but they still count towards the 50% limit.  "May always" <> "Must"

 

May always means you can always choose to put them into reserves.  So while I agree they count as a squad that could be deployed, for the purposes of working out how many can be held in reserves, I disagree that you can be compelled to place them.  If you can be compelled to place them, then you can't "always" start them in reserves.  (ie, if your only deployable squads are 2 squads of terminators, "may always" must mean you may choose to keep both of them in reserves, even though your normal reserve total is 1).

 

If they meant 'may start in reserves even when reserves aren't allowed', they could have said that.  "May always" is a much broader statement.

 

----------------

 

I suppose the answer to a lot of my questions has to do with the fact that you're generating a number of units which can be held in reserves, and so there's only compulsory deployment if there are units left to deploy *after* ICs join units.  But that doesn't answer the terminator question, and it doesn't answer the question of how placing units in transports which are compelled into reserves affects things.

[Squirrelloid]

All references are on BRB Page 124:

 

(2) - You calculate the number of units you have first - including Independent Characters and Non-dedicated Transports.  Excluding units that must be placed in reserve (drop pods for example)  If a unit has a Dedicated Transport, they are treated as a single unit for these purposes.  50% of these available units (rounding up) may be placed into reserves.

 

- eg a Captain, a Tactical Squad in Drop Pod, a Tactical Squad in Rhino, a Sternguard Squad and a Land Raider equals 5 units, 1 of which must be in reserve (Drop Pod, whether the squad is in it or not) leaving 4 units. Therefore 2 additional units can be kept in reserve (eg. the Sternguard Squad in the Land Raider - counting as 2 units).

 

In your example, the Storm Raven would be excluded from the 50% however the unit placed inside wouldn't, because the Storm Raven isn't a Dedicated Transport.

 

With you so far.

 

(2a) - you can only allocate an Independent Character in reserves to a Unit in reserves.  Because both the Character and Unit must both be in reserves in order to join up.

 

Based on what?  p39 disagrees - it doesn't put any restrictions on which units the IC can join.

 

In your interpretation, if you have an entire army arriving by drop pod, you can't have more than a single independent character, because some of them wouldn't be able to join units in reserves and thus can't join squads in drop pods?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

(3) - Combat Squadding occurs immediately before deployment and reserves are calculated during deployment- so they will count as 2 units for the purposes of calculating reserves.

 

Edit: misread, nevermind, that's in accord.  Okay, so you combat squad first.

 

(4) - They may always start in reserve - emphasis "may" - they still count towards the 50% limit because it's not a mandatory form of deployment, unlike drop pods and flyers.

 

I respectively disagree.  Emphasis always.  'May' means its your choice, 'always' means you can always make it.  They aren't compelled to start in reserves, but they may always be put there at your option.

 

(I do agree they count as a non-compulsory reserve choice, so they do count to that total, but i disagree they can be compelled to deploy).

[Dam13n]

The "may always" is an artifact left from previous editions where it would say that "no units could be placed in reserve" in the description of certain missions.  It doesn't over-rule the 50% limit.

 

Quoting the DA FAQ:

 

Q: Do units deploying via the Deathwing Assault special rule count
toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves at the
start of a battle? (p44)
A: Yes.

 

Now the Deathwing assault is the method employed by the Deathwing to arrive from Reserves.  They are Terminators, and have the exact same description (may always...) in their codex as codex SM.  Therefore if they count towards the 50%, so do Terminators from Codex SM (or any other codex for that matter).  I suspect the only reason GW haven't specifically FAQed the Terminators is because they consider it obvious.

 

Edit:  Now you are saying that they count towards the total, yet are exempt from it at the same time??  The rules seem pretty clear, "you may place up to 50% of your units (rounding up) into reserves...".  If you allocate a unit of Terminators to arrive via deep strike, they count towards that 50%, once that 50% has been used up, the remaining units must be deployed normally, whether they are Terminators or not.

 

- - - - - -

 

Edit - bottom of page 124 left column - "First he must specify if any of his Independent Characters in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together"  A unit cannot arrive from reserves unless it's in reserves to start with.

[Squirrelloid]

The "may always" is an artifact left from previous editions where it would say that "no units could be placed in reserve" in the description of certain missions. It doesn't over-rule the 50% limit.

 

Quoting the DA FAQ:

 

Q: Do units deploying via the Deathwing Assault special rule count

toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves at the

start of a battle? (p44)

A: Yes.

 

Now the Deathwing assault is the method employed by the Deathwing to arrive from Reserves. They are Terminators, and have the exact same description (may always...) in their codex as codex SM. Therefore if they count towards the 50%, so do Terminators from Codex SM (or any other codex for that matter). I suspect the only reason GW haven't specifically FAQed the Terminators is because they consider it obvious.

 

- - - - - -

 

Edit - bottom of page 124 left column - "First he must specify if any of his Independent Characters in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together" A unit cannot arrive from reserves unless it's in reserves to start with.

 

 

That just means you can't assign terminators to the 'deploy' group to get non-terminators out of deploying and then say 'haha, just kidding' and withhold the terminators anyway, which answers one question.

 

But it doesn't actually compel Terminators to deploy if you have more terminators than the 50% threshhold.  They could exceed the 50%, because they may always be held in reserves.  But they do 'fill it up' so other units can't be held in reserves if you do that.  (ie, nothing in that errata compels them to deploy, it just compels them to count against the units you're holding in reserves).

 

Edit: That text is necessary because otherwise you never have to specify the unit joined status of an IC in reserves or not.  Because you specify that *when you deploy* the IC.  So, if you were deploying the IC, you'd say 'He's joining unit X in reserves'.  But if he's already held in reserves, you'd never have to make that declaration - that rule compels you to decide whether he's attached and which squad then instead of when he deploys.

[Fibonacci]

I respectively disagree.  Emphasis always.  'May' means its your choice, 'always' means you can always make it.  They aren't compelled to start in reserves, but they may always be put there at your option.

 

(I do agree they count as a non-compulsory reserve choice, so they do count to that total, but i disagree they can be compelled to deploy).

Why bother asking if you are not going to accept the answer?

[Squirrelloid]

 

I respectively disagree.  Emphasis always.  'May' means its your choice, 'always' means you can always make it.  They aren't compelled to start in reserves, but they may always be put there at your option.

 

(I do agree they count as a non-compulsory reserve choice, so they do count to that total, but i disagree they can be compelled to deploy).

Why bother asking if you are not going to accept the answer?

 

Because it started as a list of things that weren't obvious, and then i re-read relevant text?

 

Because I'm willing to be wrong, but you'd have to find something which contravened the wargear text?  Maybe I'm not aware of a particular piece of errata, or maybe I missed a redefinition of Terminator Armor in the main rulebook that rewrites the codex definition.  There's always teh possibility there is relevant text I'm not aware of.

[Fibonacci]

Sorry, it's just that this question comes up a lot and it is usually not pretty.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/261721-tda-and-reserves/?p=3185553

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/258089-reserve-requirements-and-dedicated-transports/?p=3139852

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255070-drop-pod-armies-and-new-rules/?p=3107713

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226023-who-can-deep-strike/?p=2706232

[Dam13n]

Well, I've submitted it to the FAQ team for consideration.

[Squirrelloid]

Well, I've submitted it to the FAQ team for consideration.

 

I hope you included a note about drop pod armies?  I'd hate for a poorly worded errata to make drop pod armies and characters completely incompatible.

[Lysere]

 

Well, I've submitted it to the FAQ team for consideration.

 

I hope you included a note about drop pod armies?  I'd hate for a poorly worded errata to make drop pod armies and characters completely incompatible.

 

No need, if you read the rules for deepstrike models inside a vehicle that is required to deepstrike never count for the total. So if everything is in drop pods then it doesn't count towards reserve calculations. This includes characters since they would be in the drop pod.

[DarkGuard]

Well with Drop Pods the only thing that must be in reserve is actually the Drop Pod, as the squads you buy it for can choose to start on the board. I can't remember if there's an FAQ saying that those squads don't count towards reserve limit, but if an FAQ were worded badly then yes, GW could completely invalidate Drop Pod lists.

[dswanick]

Well with Drop Pods the only thing that must be in reserve is actually the Drop Pod, as the squads you buy it for can choose to start on the board. I can't remember if there's an FAQ saying that those squads don't count towards reserve limit, but if an FAQ were worded badly then yes, GW could completely invalidate Drop Pod lists.

 

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No.", BRB FAQ v1.4

[DarkGuard]

Brilliant, thought I'd seen something like that somewhere, cheers dswanick.

 

Of course, lets hope GW keep it like that, we don't want to see them fiddling with it and changing it.

[Squirrelloid]

 

Well with Drop Pods the only thing that must be in reserve is actually the Drop Pod, as the squads you buy it for can choose to start on the board. I can't remember if there's an FAQ saying that those squads don't count towards reserve limit, but if an FAQ were worded badly then yes, GW could completely invalidate Drop Pod lists.

 

"Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in

Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)

A: No.", BRB FAQ v1.4

 

The problem is ICs still count separately for the purposes of calculating reserves, so if for some reason they FAQed it that ICs beyond the limit that can be put into reserves couldn't join squads in drop pods, it would be unfortunate.

 

That exemption seems to only apply to dedicated transports, because squads are not in vehicles before they get deployed there otherwise, and that happens after reserves.

[Dam13n]

Well, if a unit is in a drop pod, it's a dedicated transport. (Excluding the Lucius pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod).

 

The rules state a unit and its dedicated transport are treated as 1 unit for the purposes of calculating reserves.

 

As a drop pod must start in reserve, both it and its unit don't count towards the 50% calculation.

 

However by RAW, the independent characters are separate for all purposes when determining said 50%.

 

Therefore if you had every unit in a drop pod, then the character(s) would be the only 'units' that would count towards the calculation. This means if you have 1 character he can go in a pod because you round up the 50%, however if you have 2 characters at least 1 must deploy on the table.

 

At least that's how it reads to me.

[Squirrelloid]

Well, if a unit is in a drop pod, it's a dedicated transport. (Excluding the Lucius pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod).

 

The rules state a unit and its dedicated transport are treated as 1 unit for the purposes of calculating reserves.

 

As a drop pod must start in reserve, both it and its unit don't count towards the 50% calculation.

 

However by RAW, the independent characters are separate for all purposes when determining said 50%.

 

Therefore if you had every unit in a drop pod, then the character(s) would be the only 'units' that would count towards the calculation. This means if you have 1 character he can go in a pod because you round up the 50%, however if you have 2 characters at least 1 must deploy on the table.

 

At least that's how it reads to me.

 

That's very much not how it reads to me.

 

"An independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." (p39)

 

Note that this happens during deployment, since informing your opponent is an alternative to deploying into coherency with the unit, and it only specifies that the unit is in reserve, not the character.  Since characters in reserve do not get deployed, this text obviously doesn't apply to them, since reserves are specifically not deployed.  ("... players can choose not to deploy up to half their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves", p124)  Also note that this (p39) specifically gives a deploying character the ability to join a unit in reserves.

 

This also means that characters in reserves have no rules for joining units before entering play in the independent character rules on p39.  Enter the Reserve rules: "First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit..." (p124).  This specifically covers the situation of a character in reserves, and gives them the ability to join units in reserve.  Note that it does not say anything about what a character who is not held in reserves can or cannot do (that's covered by p39).  Nothing about this rule prohibits characters not held in reserve from joining units in reserve, because it doesn't address characters not held in reserve at all.

 

(Similarly, the rules for deploying units into non-dedicated transports allow you to specify any appropriate transport for a unit you are deploying - that is, a unit not held in reserve - but because this happens during deployment, it needs specific rules text to join a unit in reserves to a transport in reserves, since those units don't 'deploy' to get a chance to specify they are embarked, and the rules on p124 provide such an opportunity.  So a unit that would otherwise deploy can deploy into a non-dedicated transport in reserves as well).

 

Basically, the rules on p124 about ICs and units in reserve never say anything about ICs and units not in reserve.  They merely permit reserve units to make the appropriate declarations since those types of declarations otherwise happen during the deployment phase (which reserve units do not participate in).

 

At least that's how I read it.

[dswanick]

Well, if a unit is in a drop pod, it's a dedicated transport. (Excluding the Lucius pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod).

The rules state a unit and its dedicated transport are treated as 1 unit for the purposes of calculating reserves.

As a drop pod must start in reserve, both it and its unit don't count towards the 50% calculation.

However by RAW, the independent characters are separate for all purposes when determining said 50%.

Therefore if you had every unit in a drop pod, then the character(s) would be the only 'units' that would count towards the calculation. This means if you have 1 character he can go in a pod because you round up the 50%, however if you have 2 characters at least 1 must deploy on the table.

At least that's how it reads to me.

Re-read my FAQ quote. If the IC is embarked on a transport(for example, by being attached to a unit embarked in a drop pod) that must start the game in reserve(flyer or drop pod), it does not count.

[Dam13n]

I have read the FAQ.

 

The thing is, you calculate your reserve limits first before allocating characters.

 

eg - 2 IC plus 6 units in drop pods - all the units in drop pods (due to them being dedicated transports) are excluded from the 50% calculation. That leaves the 2 ICs, one of which cannot be placed into reserves due to the 50% rule, so therefore cannot join a unit that is in reserves, so therefore cannot be embarked in the drop pod.

 

The BRB is pretty clear on that and the FAQ doesn't change it either, as the character has to be able to legally join the unit in order to benefit from that ruling.

 

Now I like the idea of an army deploying entirely by drop pod, so I'd be interested to hear the counter-argument to this.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Now I like the idea of an army deploying entirely by drop pod, so I'd be interested to hear the counter-argument to this.

 

I don't think there is one.

 

Again this is another example of something I feel everyone can agree the intention of, but GW has failed to make work with bad rule writing.  I'm sure we can agree that ICs attached to squads that are embarked on a transport that *must* deploy by Deep Strike (Drop Pods/Ravens) don't count.

 

Maybe GW will realise they need a 6.5 release...

[dswanick]

I have read the FAQ.

The thing is, you calculate your reserve limits first before allocating characters.

eg - 2 IC plus 6 units in drop pods - all the units in drop pods (due to them being dedicated transports) are excluded from the 50% calculation. That leaves the 2 ICs, one of which cannot be placed into reserves due to the 50% rule, so therefore cannot join a unit that is in reserves, so therefore cannot be embarked in the drop pod.

The BRB is pretty clear on that and the FAQ doesn't change it either, as the character has to be able to legally join the unit in order to benefit from that ruling.

Now I like the idea of an army deploying entirely by drop pod, so I'd be interested to hear the counter-argument to this.

By that "logic" the squads must be counted as well, because they too can't be in reserve until after they have been calculated for.

 

Sorry, but GW has made it clear:

2ICs, a unit of Death Company, and a DC dread all embarked in a Storm Raven(5 units, 1 of which is a Flyer) do not count towards the reserve limit.

 

You can try and argue that the rules are meant to be parsed line-by-line, like a computer program, but that's not how GW wrote the rules to be evaluated. The rules are written to be evaluated holistically. You have a valid reserve deployment when the end result is valid after all reserve, attachment, and special rules are accounted for.

 

Just like the whole C:DA Apothecary w/ terminator weapons debate. Yes, it's fun to poke holes in the rules sometimes, but in the end you have to accept the rules for the way they are written, and you can't base all of your advice to others on a binary reading of them.

[Dam13n]

Except the unit and dedicated drop pod are counted as 1 unit, the drop pod then makes them both exempt from the 50% calculation.

 

By that logic, unless you combat squad the unit, they never count towards the 50%, whether they are in the pod or not. (A combat squad is split into 2 units before deployment, as noted above)

 

As Gent said, it's poorly written.

 

Edit - As far as the BA answer, IIRC that it says they are counted as 1 unit for the purposes of rolling for reserves, not that they count as 1 unit for determining the 50%.

I'm on my phone ATM, so can't check the FAQ.

 

Edit #2 - checked the BA FAQ, there is no mention of the "Storm Raven and Units in Reserve" statement. Now I do remember it, so maybe it's been deleted. Thus directing us back to the BRB which states that they are all separate units when counting for the 50%.

[dswanick]

Except the unit and dedicated drop pod are counted as 1 unit, the drop pod then makes them both exempt from the 50% calculation.

There is no RAW stating this, it's an assumption based on common sense (like the whole of this issue should be).

 

Edit: I should clarify. The rules state that a unit and it's dedicated transport count as a single unit. It does not state that said "single unit" does or does not count towards the reserve limit. So your assumption is that because one part does not count, the whole does not count. But it is equally valid to conclude that because one part counts, the whole counts. That's where the common sense has to come in. One of those two options makes no sense by the overall rules or the FAQ.

By that logic, unless you combat squad the unit, they never count towards the 50%, whether they are in the pod or not. (A combat squad is split into 2 units before deployment, as noted above)

Only if you fail to use common sense...

As Gent said, it's poorly written.

Only if you fail to apply common sense...

Edit - As far as the BA answer, IIRC that it says they are counted as 1 unit for the purposes of rolling for reserves, not that they count as 1 unit for determining the 50%.

I'm on my phone ATM, so can't check the FAQ.

I quoted the FAQ above. Since all of those units are embarked on a Flyer (which must start in reserve), none of them count towards the reserve limit.

Edit #2 - checked the BA FAQ, there is no mention of the "Storm Raven and Units in Reserve" statement. Now I do remember it, so maybe it's been deleted. Thus directing us back to the BRB which states that they are all separate units when counting for the 50%.

Again, not according to the above quoted FAQ.

 

Look, you can debate the pure RAW all day long, and maybe even score some points here and there, but what you can't do is ignore common sense and make the FAQ match the legalistic interpretation of RAW. Therefore, a legalistic interpretation of the rules can't be applied if you want to find yourself in agreement with GW's interpretation.