Using a WE librarian. Heresy?!

[depthcharge12]

As I have an unorthodox way of looking at things I have wondered about using a librarian in a world eater betrayal army.

 

As my local GW store there's a healthy mixture of fluff and tactical players, many of which just create an army then throw a background behind it.

 

I like the tactical aspect of having a librarian but also feel the boundaries of fluff.

 

As ADB had Libby's left over from the war hounds (now world eaters) what do you guys think about the viability of using one?

 

My army is supposed to represent the beginnings of the WEs shortly after finding His Lord Angryness with the spirit of the legion starting to falter. New flashy line officers are challenging their elders with deeds, and the nails are starting to become all the rage (pun intended ;) ).

 

Do you guys think that a Libby would fit in with the theme as the WEs haven't been fully consumed by the nails yet as it is still in its development phases? The old war hounds still able to fight with their brethren before they start blowing them up like popcorn?

 

Note: I have my army painted as WEs but how should I paint officers such as the apothecaries? They are already white so do you guys think that painting them as war hounds would be more dynamic? If I take the libby should he keep war hound colors?

 

Thanks brothers

[Kol Saresk]

I think that would be a definite yes. A bit unorthodox but definitely a yes. Nothing says that the Librarians suffered persecution before Angron was found and everything the three reasons they were persecuted was because 1.) Angron was superstitious, 2.) For some reason the Nails caused the Libbys who had them implanted to go supernova and kill the squads they were leading) and 3.) Being near a Libby caused headaches for anyone who had the Nails implanted. But the latter two reasons were reasons that developed overtime as the implants became more and more common so it still wouldn't be too weird for Libbys to be in the Companies that either haven't received the Nails yet or are just starting to receive them as any side effects can just be written off on the bastardized versions of the early implants.

 

As for the officers, a simple helix cross might suffice but perhaps War Hound Colors for officers in general and then something like the helix cross for the Apothecaries and some sort of eye-staff for the Librarians perhaps?

[GhostMalone]

If you were creating a post Calth army it wouldn't work due to the last vestiges of the librarius (I believe like eleven librarians are left) were wiped out in a attempt to stop angrons accession, so after that point the librarius was over. I'm currently developing a Horus heresy W/E force and I'm going to use a librarian so it's all good I reckon.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

If you were creating a post Calth army it wouldn't work due to the last vestiges of the librarius (I believe like eleven librarians are left) were wiped out in a attempt to stop angrons accession, so after that point the librarius was over. I'm currently developing a Horus heresy W/E force and I'm going to use a librarian so it's all good I reckon.

/agree 100%

 

They were not well liked post Angron but tolerated.  If i were you i would never attach him to a squad. Maybe give him a bike.

[GhostMalone]

 

If you were creating a post Calth army it wouldn't work due to the last vestiges of the librarius (I believe like eleven librarians are left) were wiped out in a attempt to stop angrons accession, so after that point the librarius was over. I'm currently developing a Horus heresy W/E force and I'm going to use a librarian so it's all good I reckon.

/agree 100%

 

They were not well liked post Angron but tolerated.  If i were you i would never attach him to a squad. Maybe give him a bike.

 

id like to agree but even Khârn tolerated them and its not that they were tolerated it was like the space wolves and psykers its just superstition,

but the world eaters without nails would be fine with a librarian.

you just wouldn't attach him to a rampager squad or one using the butcher nails.

maybe a recon squad?

[Eorek]

When Reading through Betrayer there is a librarian here and there, Having the people with the normal nails seem pretty much unaffected by librarians standing close to them. However getting close to Angron doesn't seem that healthy; his nails are abit more effective than the Standard issue I guess. 

So running a librarian in a world eater army would make sense...

Also, if you are planning on building a fluffy World eater army: Read Betrayer, it gives you a good insight in their Gladiator culture(Both within the legion and other serfs), the "split" between the old and the new legion, alot of details around Khârn and his bromance with another Astartes and you get to follow Angron around...Which is awesome. 

[GhostMalone]

I actually said that exact same thing in a previous thread :)

[Eorek]

:D Well Betrayer is a good read, I dare even say it's my favorite of the Horus heresy books, Even though I have a soft spot for Garro and Loken...

Might just be because I have a thing for Aaron Dembski-Bowden ... Everything that man writes is pure gold, be it Talos and his nightlords, Hyperion the grey knight, world eaters or word bearers... Really wanna read him writing about Sevatar:D

He even made me like Word Bearers (never thought that would happen...)


Back on topic: 

It would make sense making the librarian "calmer" and not so world eater-y, 
They are outcasts sorta, so they won't have blood markings, or similar world eaters decorations and have more general decorations if any, Also they lack the nails, so they'll me a bit more stable than the other world eaters(Read Betrayer!) 

I based my librarion on http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Red_Scorpions/MAGISTER_SEVRIN_LOTH-CHIEF-LIBRARIAN-OF-THE-RED-SCORPIONS-WITH-HONOUR-GUARD.html 

Those Axes you get for the honour guard are awesome... I use them for paragon blades for my praetors. 

Also I think world eaters ignore the all blue Librarians, just go with white ones. 

... And running Khârn with a librarian (counts as shabran Darr/running chaos Dex/Kitting a Praetor or centurion to suit Khârn) Would Be awesome... And make sure you call the Librarian Esca:D

(and read Betrayer! it would answer all your questions and doubts regarding the issue, And you'll have some quality time with an awesome book:D)

[Soraf]

Pretty much covered by these guys, but yeah, the WE did have a librarius division up until the campaign that culminated in Angron's ascension to daemonhood.

It would definitely be in accordance with the fluff to take a librarian with your World Eaters (so long as you havent taken an ascended angron lol).

 

If you wanted to establish the distinction of their role, you could employ War hound heraldry to emphasize the distinction from their battle brothers, though iirc, the librarian mentioned in Betrayer didnt really have anything but his powers and the disdane of the other WE to distinguish himself, though i could be wrong :3

[depthcharge12]

Thanks alot guys.

 

For me with the legions it was a could I take it vs. should I take it?

 

Fluff has looked poorly on some units for different legions which makes sense, but as you guys and Mr. Dembski-Bowden has mentioned that there are many groups of warriors in each legion spread throughout the galaxy...anything is possible: World Eater artillery regiments and librarians, Space Wolves that use flyers, and Ultramarines that have destroyers.

[Rain]

What's funny is that although Angron was not particularly fond of Libbies, he actually ignored the Nikea edict and kept a Librarius even after it was forbidden. Though unlike say, the Thousand Sons, who did it on principle, or the Space Wolves, who did it because they aren't very bright and so don't understand that their priests' magic rocks are only magic because of the warp, he kept them because he just ignores the Emperor as a matter of course. That said, I think that it's pretty clear that the Butcher's Nails are a Khornate artifact of some sort and therefore cause violent reactions when in proximity to a psyker. Kind of like Collars of Khorne just hammered into your skull.

[GhostMalone]

If it was a simple artefact of khorne I'm pretty sure the big e would have been able to do something, but angron didn't ignore the edict he just didn't care about the librarius and by the time the edict came in there were barely any left, I think it was around 20.

[Kol Saresk]

Not really. He didn't maintain it so much as used it as a cage for the psykers. The Librarians became effectively shunned as a matter of course when those who were implanted with the nails self-destructed and it caused headaches in Angron and the non-psykers. As far as being "clear that they were Khornate artifacts", again not exactly. I believe the in the first BA novel there was something called "ghost-metal" which was a metal that debilitated psychic abilities. In the Eisenhorn series, alpha-level psykers where shown being restrained with special collars that restricted their abilities. The Black Ships in general are anti-psyker prisons, meant to keep in psykers until they are delivered to their destination or killed. The point is that many different forms other than Collars of Khorne have been shown to restrict psykers. So yes, the nails could be a Khornate artifact that didn't set the Emperor's warp-senses tingling, or it could be roid-rage gone horribly wrong and makes its victims/users more aware of psykers at a very painful level. The reality is that we don't know. You could be wrong. You could be wrong. We don't know and we won't know until something says so.

[Rain]

Yeah, but this is fiction not real life, and in fiction certain things are obvious not just because there is no other feasible way for them to be, but because it serves the plot. Oh and at the end of The Butcher's Nail's audiodrama the Dark Eldar lord says something along the lines of "the pain engines lead to the Skull Throne" before Angron kills him which is what makes Lorgar reconsider his stance on having to remove the nails and instead lies to Angron saying that he now believes that Angron can master the Nails and survive. This is because Lorgar now sees the Nails as an opportunity to bind Angron (and therefore his legion) to the service of Khorne as neither Angron nor the World Eaters had any real interest in Lorgar's religion per se, and seemed to not particularly care whether or not the gods are real. Oh and the nails are poorly understood archeo-tech...and they make psykers explode...and come ON, I mean just come on, they are very obviously some kind of locus of Khorne's will/influence.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, because its fiction it is the inverse. Reality is 2+2x=8. Fiction is 2+2x=y. Until you know what one is, you cannot say the other. Because for all we know y=10. It could even equal twelve. But if we say x=8 when y=6, well 2+2(8) does not equal 6.

 

Let's examine the facts. The Eldar had a prophecy that Angron would become a daemon prince(also mentioned in Butcher's Nails when the Archon complains about there being two princes and not one like in the visions). Angron would be open to this because of how the Nails constantly pained him and only in the most intense battles did he ever find peace.

 

Psykers and the Nails don't mix. The only negative effect the Nails have on psykers is only when the Nails are planted into the psykers directly. It does not negate their abilities. If anything, it amplified them to the point of overload. It did cause headaches in those who had the Nails implanted but weren't psykers. However, with the exception of Angron, this didn't cause too much discomfort for the World Eaters as Khârn and his Assault Company regularly fought alongside one of them. In fact, it is alluded that much of the dislike of psykers comes from Angron's ingrained superstitions from his homeworld and the fact that he is pained by their presence.

 

However, the psykers were able to combine their powers to make the Communion, a psychic hive mind that was capable of cutting through the haze of the Nails without causing Angron pain, however his superstitions still caused him to hate it.

 

Other than the self-destruct/headache/superstition business, the Nails had no real negative side effects concerning psykers. In fact, the last few psykers were not killed because they didn't mix with the Nails, but because they tried to stop Lorgar's ascension of Angron and then Angron didn't take to kindly to that.

 

You also mentioned Lorgar. The same Lorgar who can use Enuncia. The same Lorgar who could tell that Fulgrim was possessed in the events immediately following Istvaan V by just looking at him. The same Lorgar who had the foresight to build three Abyss-class king-ships with plans to let one die as well as make his Legion big enough that the portion that goes to Calth could be lost with all hands and it be "acceptable". The same Lorgar who could look at the Ten Thousand Futures and say "I know which of these will never come true" and be right. And this same Lorgar who could at least see warp taint didn't get the idea to ascend Angron until after a Dark Eldar gave him the idea? No offense but it doesn't seem like you're giving the guy enough credit. Especially since they were already planning to make the Ruinstorm back in Butcher's Nails and Lorgar was able to change the purpose of an entire ritual that relied on the sacrifice of 100 worlds to go from creating the Ruinstorm to creating the Ruinstorm and ascending Angron, who for all intents and purposes was an unwilling participant. Granted, my knowledge of anything involving ritual is limited but from what I understand, they act as focii and rewriting the purpose of a ritual that is in progress takes an extreme amount of effort.

[Rain]

All of the librarian's that had Nails implanted died caused horrible "accidents" and were given an ultimatum to have them removed or be killed. They chose to have them removed which killed them. The remaining Libbies were all not implanted. Oh and just being near the Libbies gave World Eaters headaches and Angron's presence caused the Libby in Khârn's command squad to hemmorhage out his nose and ears (as Angron had the original Butcher's Nails which are presumably more potent as they are the real deal and not an imitation).

 

Oh and yes. Lorgar certainly changed his mind, listen to the audiodrama, at the beginning he is trying to convince Angron that he needs to remove the Nails and after the Archon mentions the prophecy Lorgar changes his tune, Angron even accuses him of lying, he just doesn't care too much. Oh and your math example is...honestly I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you're even trying to say. My point was simply that fictional stories often telegraph plot points without explicitly stating them. In the real world there is no "plot" as such so skepticism and the conscious or otherwise application of a null hypothesis makes sense. In fiction, especially highly stylized fiction like this, it's okay to make some pretty basic assumptions based on heavily implied plot points.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't disagree with you that Lorgar changed his mind. You're saying the Nails are artifacts of Khorne and by extension are warp-tainted. I'm saying Lorgar has warp-sight strong enough to see a daemon hitching a ride in a Primarch's body. You are saying that the "obvious" warp taint of the Nails somehow escaped Lorgar's notice and took a xenos pointing it out. I pointed out how that isn't giving the guy enough credit. He does all of this but misses something as small as warp taint. If the warp taint existed, it wouldn't have taken a xenos pointing out that Angron would make a good sacrifice. Lorgar would have already planned it. But since he didn't, that implies either there was no warp taint or for everything Lorgar did, this one small, tiny detail managed to escape his notice.

 

EDIT: On page 37, Khârn describes how Argel Tal has the same effect on him as Esca or Vorias. Argel Tal is not a psyker. That would almost suggest that it is "warp taint" itself that sets off the Nails.

[GhostMalone]

I didn't disagree with you that Lorgar changed his mind. You're saying the Nails are artifacts of Khorne and by extension are warp-tainted. I'm saying Lorgar has warp-sight strong enough to see a daemon hitching a ride in a Primarch's body. You are saying that the "obvious" warp taint of the Nails somehow escaped Lorgar's notice and took a xenos pointing it out. I pointed out how that isn't giving the guy enough credit. He does all of this but misses something as small as warp taint. If the warp taint existed, it wouldn't have taken a xenos pointing out that Angron would make a good sacrifice. Lorgar would have already planned it. But since he didn't, that implies either there was no warp taint or for everything Lorgar did, this one small, tiny detail managed to escape his notice.

 

EDIT: On page 37, Khârn describes how Argel Tal has the same effect on him as Esca or Vorias. Argel Tal is not a psyker. That would almost suggest that it is "warp taint" itself that sets off the Nails.

and as mentioned its archeo tech not warp tainted crap, they are a neurological manipulating device that rewired his brainwaves and his senses. im pretty sure that not all of the librarians chose to have the nails removed some would have volunteered to be a living bomb in all likelihood, your due to die why undergo a suicidal process when you can still benefit your legion and brothers. theres no solid fluff saying they ALL underwent removal.

[Rain]

Yes there is, it's in Betrayer. Angron didn't like that they were blowing up his men so he gave them an ultimatum, they all chose removal and all died as a consequence. The only remaining Librarians in the legion were those that were never implanted. Oh and it being archeo-tech is hardly mutually exclusive with it being inately Khornate, hell it just means that it could have originally been built by a Khorne cult, nobody really knows, they were just found as-is in Angron's skull and then replicated, without much understanding as to how they work.

 

As for Lorgar's secret spidey sense for the warp, I really don't see why you assume he has it. Yes he can "listen" to the "song" of the warp on a large scale, but there really isn't any indication that he can just immediately recognize anything that has anything to do with the gods. And he is hardly prescient, the WB being sent packing from Calth was not really part of his master plan; yeah he wrote it off as just being about the ruinstorm but fact is that his gambit failed and he lost. Actually, he hardly has control over his legion at all, Erebus and Kor Phaeron kind of led him to Chaos worship in the first place and continue to do their own thing, if anything Lorgar is a bit of a starry eyed idealist or at least was for a long time, Betrayer largely highlights his shift away from this to more of an analytical pragmatist but that's part of the plot arc but even if it wasn't, manipulative genius =! magic power to see loci of the gods' power.

 

But hey, maybe the archeotech of unknown origin that gets implanted into a legion that turns to the worship of a deity that hates psykers only reacts badly to being in/near psykers by pure silly coincidence. Because y'know, fantasy fiction is just full of random coincidences.

[Kol Saresk]

Read the Dresden Files. You'd be surprised by how many coincidences actually pop and they still manage to be coincidences.

[Kol Saresk]

First, thanks for making me go back through Betrayer. It was a magnificent book and I had forgotten just how magnificent. Second, you did correct me on a few misconceptions. I had forgotten that Angron caused as much pain to the Librarians as they caused him.

 

Page 41

'Angron is taking his time,' Kargos muttered. 'There's a war waiting for us.'

 

As if on cue, Esca coughed once. He tried to hide it, to bite it back, but all nearby caught the scent of blood flecking his gauntlet as he coughed into his hand. Darker, thicker blood ran in a slow trickle from his ear.

Page 78

Esca crouched there, breathing through bloody teeth, too weak to even swallow. To force one's way into a primarch's mind was to swim blind through rockcrete. And the Nails... the Nails made torture into a nightmare. Angron's Nails were almost septic in their simplicity, clouding the warlord's brain from outside influence, turning his thought into untraceable, uncatchable ghosts. To even speak with him, mind to mind, took an event like the Communion, and an event like the Communion left the remaining Word Eaters Librarians sickened and weak in the aftermath. Whatever went into the construction of Angron's cranial implants defied cranial implants defied simple reverse engineering.

Page 241

'Archmagos. Will the World Eaters implants kill them in the same way?' She licked her lips, feeling them suddenly dry. 'Will they kill Khârn?

 

The robed priest seemed distracted, his eye lenses panning up one of the motionless Titans as it stood ready to walk again.

 

'They are primitive copies of the malignant priginal,' he said. 'They erode stability and damage the subjects' capacity to reason. They impinge on higher brain function by rewriting emotional responses. However, they are not fatal - not degenerative in the terminal sense. The most important aspect of their implantation they share with the original Nails is that they cannot be removed without killing the host, or - at best - inflicting severe and irreparable brain damage. But they are not, as you say, likely to kill Khârn. Or indeed any World Eater.'

So other than when the implantation process occurs, the Nails do not have any hindrance on the Librarians with one notable exception: Angron. So if you are right and at least one of the Nails is a Khornate artifact, then it is Angron's. The rest, not so much. However, the fact that they react to daemons as shown on page 37, would imply an anti-warp effect rather than an anti-psyker effect.

 

Also, I did not quote Lorgar's hearing of the song of the warp. I specifically quoted a passage from Aurelian in which he took one look at Fulgrim and realized his brother was possessed. There was also the bit in The First Heretic when Lorgar's powers were relatively nascent but he was still able to see an infant Raum as a hazy outline on Argel Tal.

 

Also, The Underground War also supports that Calth was nothing more than a meatgrinder that would act as the Word Bearer's Istvaan III, but their deaths would serve a purpose other than "cleansing the Legion". All Word Bearers who "knew no forgiveness" and let their hate of the Ultramarines consume them were sent to Calth. The hope was that they would die there. From Aurelian, we know Guilliman would have died at Calth only if Lorgar went, but Lorgar was needed elsewhere so instead he sent his "faithless" sons to die there. The only reason any survived was because they ran away.

 

But basically, you are right. I am right. Jaspcat is right. Why? Because the only thing that says each one of us is wrong is each other. You say its obvious. I've seen people say "its obvious" about other things relating to 40K and wind up horribly wrong. So as a result, when I see "its obvious" I tend to hold it at arms length. People said it would be obvious that Sevatar will make his break out in The Unremembered Empire. It was then pointed out that according to descriptions from the end of Savage Weapons and the beginning of The Lion, the Dark Angels will have been to and from Ultramar long before Prince of Crows. Some said it was obvious that Sevatar would become a Knight Errant and by extension, one of the Founders of the Grey Knights. I think the amount of emphasis placed on the fact that he was the first person to ever utter the words "Death to the False Emperor." in The First Heretic says he will never have that role. But until A D-B, Laurie Goulding, BL, FW or GW comes out and says which one of these are true, none of them are true and none of them are wrong. So yes, the "its obvious" will always have a chance of being wrong until someone with authority in the matter specifically says one way or the other.

[GhostMalone]

And it's obvious we should just put this behind us. I agree with kol on a number of things. Literature the game and the fluff is all open to interpretation and as the years pass more will be solidified as fact rather than speculation. ;)

[depthcharge12]

After some thought (and serious consideration to buy Betrayer), I wondered about how the nails would react with WE apothecaries?

 

Do you think that they receive them as the rest of the legion, or do you guys think that it would cloud their thoughts too much and impede them from performing their battlefield duties? Hence large unnecessary World Eater casualties that could have been mitigated 

[GhostMalone]

After some thought (and serious consideration to buy Betrayer), I wondered about how the nails would react with WE apothecaries?

 

Do you think that they receive them as the rest of the legion, or do you guys think that it would cloud their thoughts too much and impede them from performing their battlefield duties? Hence large unnecessary World Eater casualties that could have been mitigated

Now I believe that they still did, even with apothecaries, if you look up fabrikus an apothecary of the world eaters he seemed to do his job whilst still being a psychotic nut job. Wether or not this is exactly with the fluff or not I'm not sure, but if they did it to their librarians I'm pretty sure they would with the apothecaries.

 

After some thought (and serious consideration to buy Betrayer), I wondered about how the nails would react with WE apothecaries?

 

Do you think that they receive them as the rest of the legion, or do you guys think that it would cloud their thoughts too much and impede them from performing their battlefield duties? Hence large unnecessary World Eater casualties that could have been mitigated

Now I believe that they still did, even with apothecaries, if you look up fabrikus an apothecary of the world eaters he seemed to do his job whilst still being a psychotic nut job. Wether or not this is exactly with the fluff or not I'm not sure, but if they did it to their librarians I'm pretty sure they would with the apothecaries.

[GhostMalone]

After some thought (and serious consideration to buy Betrayer), I wondered about how the nails would react with WE apothecaries?

 

Do you think that they receive them as the rest of the legion, or do you guys think that it would cloud their thoughts too much and impede them from performing their battlefield duties? Hence large unnecessary World Eater casualties that could have been mitigated

Now I believe that they still did, even with apothecaries, if you look up fabrikus an apothecary of the world eaters he seemed to do his job whilst still being a psychotic nut job. Wether or not this is exactly with the fluff or not I'm not sure, but if they did it to their librarians I'm pretty sure they would with the apothecaries.