Justaerin loadout

[AekoldHelbrass]

So, what is the optimal Justaerin loadout?

 

Basically, there are 3 questions:

 

1. How many models? We pay premium price for 3 initial models, so greed tells me to take at least 6-7 models. But I'm afraid it will be an overkill, especially if Praetor will be attached to the same squad. Of course there is no kill like overkill...

 

2. Which Heavy Weapon to take? I think that multi-melta is a really good option, because they will be able to bust Land Raiders from longer distance. But is it worth the points? Or should I ignore heavy weapons on them completely?

 

3. How many claws and how many axes? Axes are cheaper and AP2, on the other hand Sons of Horus will gain additional attacks before initiative step 1, so it will be good to have few claws or swords too, but how many?

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

0... they are so over-priced it's ludicrous.  take normal terminators or chosen if you want a guard for your praetor.  they are not in any way worth their points, stubborn just isn't that impressive, even in betrayal.

 

but... since that's not what you want to hear, how about, take as many as will fit into the transport you want, because they are most scary in assaults and they aren't any more durable than normal terminators and they are slower than most units, so they should have some sort of ride to get them where they need to be.

 

give them a reaper, because the MM isn't worth the points, and even if it were, why would you waste your unit's shooting for once chance at a tank?  if you get that close you might as well assault it for the chance to move closer to the enemy, but you shouldn't be using your JT on tanks anyway, so just take the reaper.

 

you can take swords instead of axes if you want to save points on an already expensive unit and still get attacks in before init step 1.  either way keep in mind that they need to kill a lot to even come close to making their points back.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Yes, probably you're right, will just take them on spare points, as many as fits.

 

I'm planning to do orbital assault army, Battlefoam limits me to 5 drop pods, with Nuncio Vox I will just deep strike Justaerin where I need them, so no max limit.

[Massaen]

There's more to the justaerin than just stubborn... WS5, furious charge and LD 9 for the whoe squad, not just the sarge.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

a standard command squad comes out to 145 for three, the justaerin are 225 for three, you're paying 80 points more for stubborn, furious charge and LD nine across the board, with one less wound in the squad because the standard bearer has two., that's about 26 points more per guy.

 

a standard command squad comes out to 215 for five, the justaerin are 315 for five, you're paying 100 points more now, that's 20 points more per guy for those 3 things. so as the justaerin get bigger, the cost per man is a little less, but still not worth it to me.

 

their other advantage is that they can take ten men.  if you could take ten in a normal command squad it would come out to like, 390, without upgrades.  10 justaerin are 540, 150 points more, so now only 15 points more per guy, maybe worth it?  i could see that, though you're still paying 5 points for each of those three advantages they offer.

 

even if you do pick justaerin, don't take the MM, it's tempting because only they can have it, but i can't see how it's really worth it.  if you are tank hunting, just assault the thing, otherwise you're wasting the squad.  if you kill the tank with the MM, you don't get to assault, and most of your weapons fire is wasted entirely.  stick with power weapons for the most part, maybe a chain fist or two as a back up against being assaulted by dreadnoughts.  i almost always prefer the reaper, but for a squad that needs to assault, heavy flamers wouldn't be bad, also since you want to DS them, the flamers are good to deter counter-assaults on the turn they arrive, and they will help keep points down on a very expensive unit.

 

with upgrades, you are looking at like 600 points that will attract a lot of fire.  the only character i might put with them, would be a primus medicae in cataphractii armor to go with them and help keep them alive.  anything else and you're defeating the whole purpose of having a retinue, which is to soak up fire for a character, but in the case of the justaerin, i just think they are too expensive to play meat-shield for someone else, that's a job normal terminators are better suited to.

 

anyway, this is how i look at it.

 

(to mods, since the points costs are totals and estimations on the over-all cost per model, i assumed they were not breaking any rules, if they are however, please edit/delete this post so as to avoid any problems, but please understand it was a mistake on my part, not an intentional flaunting of the rules.  thank you.)

[AekoldHelbrass]

Hm, you made me think...

 

Terminators: 1A - 0.5H - 0.25W. Both on charge and being charged.

Command: 1A - 0.66H - 0.33W. Both on charge and being charged.

Justaerin on charge: 1A - 0.66H - 0.44W.

Justaerin being charged: 1A - 0.66H - 0.33W.

 

So:

• they are almost twice as killy as simple TDA;
• they are scoring unlike Command;
• FC strength bonus will boost Merciless Fighters too, if you have enough wieldy weapons.

I do think that initial price for 3 is too high, it should be 150 or something like that, but in comparison to command squad you're paying 10 points for FC and Scoring, which is not bad. Not very good or optimal though, but definitely not bad. I hope they will fix initial price in Massacre, because right now they are really so expensive that my desire to field them gets beaten so hard.

 

As for heavy weapons, they are Slow and Purposeful, so no overwatch for them.

 

And main argument for adding Praetor to Justaerin - saving Slay the Warlord, because I doubt anyone will try to hunt him down inside that kind of retinue, until we'll play with Primarchs.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

There was a similar discussion a while back: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273962-help-how-to-equip-justaerin/

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

FC is pretty great, especially if you are going to take them all with power swords or lightning claws, which i know a lot of people want to do for the extra attack at initiative step 1.

 

i would be taking the majority of the squad with axes in either case and there the FC will mean the justaerin will be wounding on twos and normal terminators on ones, because if i take terminators, i want them to be able to hurt other terminators.  but that's my personal taste, maybe not yours.  and having read the older thread, i still think that justaerin shouldn't be used to just hunt things with a +3 save, because it's they will probably never make their points back, especially with a praetor or abbadon in the squad.  now you're essentially using them as a fire magnet, which a spartan would do, and for half the cost.

 

on the other hand, is if you are going to use justaerin to hunt tanks for some reason, a fist with FC can pen AV14, while a chainfist is just that much more likely to do it.  i still think that they are wasted that way, but it's useful to keep in mind in case you run into a contemptor, which is why you need always want a chainfist in a termi squad.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Yes, when I'm paying more than 500 points for a single unit - I would expect it to massacre anything cheaper than 250 points, and hurt everything cheaper than 500 points. So I would mix swords and axes.

And I would not use unit like that as fire magnet. I want them to be final blow, having 2 different options:

1. Praetor with Orbital Assault. 3 drop pods on turn 1 to keep enemy busy, then turn 2-3 Praetor with Justaerin retinue to finish off the deathstars or to crush strongest resistance.
2. Another right of war, then Abaddon to give them Deep Strike and do the same as point 1.

The main use for multi-melta is to break any rhino or Land Raider and charge the remains. I see it like this:

• The turn Justaerin arrive - they cannot charge, so couple of combi-plasmas will be good now to waste that turn entirely.
• Next turn multi-melta will destroy any transports and bastions, and Justaerin will clean up the remains.

And while it sounds good on paper, it gets very expensive very fast, so I don't know if I should take compi-plasmas or multi-melta,

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

another thing to think about is not about how much more one squad of justaerin are compared to a normal termi squad, but you could get a second termi squad for only like 100 points more, and while in assault, they don't do that many more wounds, you gain the option of assaulting two targets, claiming two objectives, and their shooting is twice as effective.  all for only 100 points before upgrades.

[AekoldHelbrass]

all for only 100 points before upgrades.

Man, I hate you, I hate logic, I hate Aristotle for establishing it, and I hate arithmetic!

 

While overall balance in HH seems better to me than in 40k, there are still few things that annoy me, and now Justaerin are one of them... But I still HAVE to field them.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

well, if you look at the CC numbers for a squad of justaerin vs a squad of normal terminators, if they are all armed with normal power swords, it comes out to like 17 or 18 wounds caused  for a squad of ten justaerin, if you factor in the savage fighters rule, vs an even 20 for normal termis.  of course it becomes more complicated when you factor in what sort of armor the opponent has and if you take axes, or power fists on some units, but in cc, the justaerin almost live up to their cost.

 

the problem is that in shooting, which, since they are relentless, they will always be doing, the normal terminators are twice as good because there are twice as many.  also, justaerin can't take a plasma blaster, which is the only weapon that really helps in termi vs termi, the MM is just too expensive to kill one terminator.