future plans for your chaos spacemarine army.

[Polaria]

Yup. If you play regular FOC with HH:B Legion list you might actually find out pretty soon that the Legion is, at best, somewhere in the middle ranks. Its approximately as overpowered as Vanilla Marines are.

 

If you play Apocalypse and can thus take Lords of War its overpowered until you meet the first player who comes to Apocalypse ganme with his full FW collection of superheavies instead of normal 40k army.

 

The reasons why its not as good as general consensus thinks is that while there are lots of choices many of them are very inflexible. The only troops choices you can take are minimum 10 man squads of modern CSM equivalents without options. They have Ld8, no ATSKNF, no Stubborn, no access to Fearless and absolutely NO special weapons. Special weapons come in their own squads which are pack-full of 'em, but guess what? You can't take those squads as minimum Troop choices and you HAVE to upgrade everyone so you end up with CSM prices 10-man bolter squads and VERY expensive 5-man focused fire targets with all the special weapons in them. Oh, and did I mention you can't take Drop Pods unless your WHOLE army has Drop Pods or can deep strike... So there goes your idea of putting the easily killed specweaps into pods.

 

Sure, you CAN do a bit more competitive lists by focusing on certain theme (all Vets, all Armoured, all Drop Pods), but to have access to those lists you must take the proper HQ specialty and while those open certain doors they also close others as quickly forcing you from one set of limitations to next. So in this case the General Consensus is the guy who read the army list without bothering to read the army wide special rules and the FOC that goes with the said list.

[Sception]

I'm not saying the heresy lists are unbalanced with the regular lists, just that I can't play them against regular lists because that just won't fly in my area.

 

And that's not even my main problem with running a heresy list.  My main problem is that I want to play CHAOS marines, not just traitor marines or heretic marines, and at this point in the HH rules, lacking as they do possessed, daemon princes, chaos spawn, daemon engines, options for daemonic allies, etc, just don't cut it for me.  I like the way the list is designed, but then again I like the way the Tau list is designed.  Doesn't mean I think it works to represent my army.

[Nehekhare]

HH2 is pretty close and will feature (dark) mechanicus. we counted-as daemons as those for a long time, why not the other way round now? we'll see...

[Sception]

When that comes, we'll see.  But if, as I suspect, the 'dark' mechanicus in HH2 is as 'dark' as the 'chaos' legions in HH1 were 'chaos', then I still don't think it will appeal to me.  At least, not as a replacement for the current chaos marine book.

[Polaria]

I don't see any reason which would prevent you from playing Chaos Space Marines with the current Chaos Space Marines codex. Despite all the whining in da internetz the current codex is not broken, nor is it anywhere near the weakest codex out there.

[hornywingythingy]

I don't see any reason which would prevent you from playing Chaos Space Marines with the current Chaos Space Marines codex. Despite all the whining in da internetz the current codex is not broken, nor is it anywhere near the weakest codex out there.

Its not what an awful lot of csm players want though, and its not a good dex, in fact its a very poor dex, and its fairly obvious the author didn't 'get' csm, as this is the gavdex with a couple of new broken units, and generally less options... Don't get me wrong, I use Csm, but my current army has exactly 3 marines in it, so its not really chaos space marines....

[TheDevourer]

My current army has one Marine :(. I just wish I could bring myself to play more, but I just can´t see the merits

[Sception]

 

I don't see any reason which would prevent you from playing
Chaos Space Marines with the current Chaos Space Marines codex. Despite
all the whining in da internetz the current codex is not broken, nor is
it anywhere near the weakest codex out there.

No. But it is poorly balanced with many of its key elements (cults, possessed, chosen, terminators, CSMs) suffering from a lack of design attention that leaves many of those units either less interesting or less effective than they should be. In addition to what seemed to be a lack of interest on the part of the author (several units ported over from the previous book with no consideration of how they functioned in that book or how the game as a whole has changed around them in two editions' time), there was what seemed to be a lack of coherent vision or understanding of how these pieces were supposed to fit together or function under the 6th ed ruleset, resulting in an extremely lopsided book that isn't particularly enjoyable to build lists for or play on the table. All in all, we have a chaos marine book that strongly discourages players from fielding the sorts of units and armies that many start the chaos marine faction to play. Not that it's worse than the last book, certainly, but you can be better than 'terrible' and still be a long ways from 'good'.

[Polaria]

I guess it depends on what you wanted. I've always been more of a "Chaos Renegade / Lost and Damned / Dark Mechanicum" fan than a hard-core follower of one of the Legions. Thus when I opened the White Dwarf announcing the new codex what I wanted from the book was the ability to field masses of cultists alongside daemon-possessed warmachines. That wish was fulfilled 120% so I'm very happy with the 'dex.

[Sception]

That's the vision of chaos I also enjoy, though I prefer a hardened heart of chaos marines at its core. I am not looking for a return to the rigid legions of 3.5. But even then, I find this book far from satisfying. Why two new armor 12 walkers, when we had two already? That's a waste of good design space. No thought was put into mutilators besides 'melee obliterators'. No thought was put into the apostle or warpsmigh besides 'chaos chaplain' or 'chaos techmarine'. Cultists, likewise, could have been so much more, and LatD elements could have been present in some way in force org slots besides troops.  Who thought champions of chaos was good as it is, in a faction where our duelists are no better than anyone elses, and in fact can be rather sub par for a marine faction?  Who let the warp talons deep strike or the dark apotheosis rules out in their current form?  Who let the heldrake in the game as overpowered and underpriced as it is?
 
The dark mechanicus isn't just about daemon engines, where's all the weird, warp-powered, chaos specific equipment options for our characters & champions? Wheres the warp-powered special weapons for our squads?  Why are there so few cool chaosy dark mech vehicle upgrades, and why do so many of our vehicles lack access to the ones that are there?  Why are reaper autocannons and havoc launchers still so boring? Where's the demonic tanks and transports that would have made our assault elements more viable in this shooty-dominated edition? Where's the demonically corrupted land raider? Where's the dark mechanicus influence in our rhinos and dreadnoughts and vindicators and predators?

 

Likewise, wheres our infiltrating cultist option to represent the insidious corruption of our faction?  Where the cultist crewed heavy support and fast attack options?  Where's the synergy with our battle brother daemons, why did the designers go so far out of their way to make sure we hardly have any rules interactions at all?  Where's the new special characters to appeas legion fans and add more build options?

 
I'm not against a greater dark mechanicus or LatD presence - those are very much things I want to see, even moreso than in the book as it is - but I'm sorry, I just don't think the new stuff does justice to that idea. That kind of theme should be integrated across the list via unique and dangerous wargear, special weapons, transports, and so on. And the warpsmith in particular should have a myriad of weird daemonic options to customize him with. Instead he's so pre-packaged that he might as well be a special character.
 
 
So, in my mind, the new stuff just isn't fully thought out, and certainly isn't integrated well with the rest. So what about the old stuff? It's mostly ported over with hardly any thought put into it, resulting in some stuff that's underpriced (bikes), some that's overpriced (thousand sons, chosen), and an awful lot that just has no idea what it's supposed to be doing in the 6th ed core rules (berserkers, possessed), and other things that are just... way too boring and lackluster for what should be iconic faction units (terminators, chosen, basic CSMs).  I didn't want to see a step back towards the confusing and restrictive labyrinth of 3.5, but I still think the 4e book needed a major overhaul to move forward, and the 6e book is anything but that overhaul.
 
While I like some of the broader strokes (cultists, more darkmech, force org manipulation instead of sublists), I still think the execution is just decidedly lackluster, and extremely underwhelming compared to the visible effort and care that has gone into basically every other 40k and Fantasy faction book in the last couple years.

[Polaria]

I think ruleswise we did get hit a bit by being the first codex for 6th. Some things weren't just polished designswise. But asking for more units, wargear and characters all the time isn't realism. A quick count I made on current, 6th edition, codices:

 

Chaos Space Marines: 30 unit entries + 7 special characters and 46 pieces of wargear or equivalent

Dark Angels: 29 unit entries + 5 special characters and 43 pieces of wargear or equivalent

Daemons: 32 unit entries + 7 special characters and 48 pieces of wargear or equivalent

Tau: 21 unit entries + 4 special characters and 49 pieces of wargear

 

So its not like we have less choice than others out there. If we want more, we need to be prepared to drop something. Sure, I would have been okay with replacing some of the old marine themed vehicles (Predator, Vindicator) with something a bit more creative and weird but what else would you drop from unit entries to cram in more special characters, crazy new units and superior wargear?

[Sception]

Ugh, it's so easy to draw me into wishlisting.  Obviously I haven't put a lot of thought into this, since it will never go anywhere, but some loosely sketched thoughts as to things I might add, drop, or change:

 

 

 

What I would have dropped from the current book:

 

the fiends.  Not that they're awful, or even bad or uncool, just rather redundant.

 

The vindicator - never an especially iconic chaos option, I wouldn't get rid of it entirely, but would rather roll into something new.

 

Terminators and warp talons as separate unit entries - The former could be rolled into chosen or cult units as optional upgrades, while the latter could be rolled into either chosen or possessed as a jump-pack upgrade.

 

Mutilators.

 

Apostles and Sorcerers as separate unit entries.  Just have one 'chaos lord' entry with a 2w and a 3w versions, and let them choose to be 'arch heretics' with passive buffs or 'sorcerers' with active psychic powers as optional extras.

 

remove 'VotLW' as an upgrade, all CSMs should have stubborn and hatred[loyalists] as faction rules (with the qualifier that cultist units are not 'CSMs' as such).

 

 

That's easy stuff off the top of my head.  Admittedly, only three of those are outright removed rather than folded into other things or just made automatic as opposed to options.  But then again, a lot of the things I'd like to see would also be replacements or revisions of current options, like:

 

make the reaper autocannon and havoc launcher into feared, iconic options, and add them to more things.  Make them overtly supernatural daemonic weapons, with statlines more in line with the baleflamer (maybe toned down slightly), hades autocannon (maybe just make the hades, reaper, and butcher all the same gun and call it a day?), and ectoplasma cannon, then spread these weapons around the codex a bit more, particularly as options on the land raider, terminators, & dreadnought.  maybe apply some general drawback to them to account for their daemonic nature - get's hot, perhaps?  Of just a general daemon weapon rule not entirely unlike the rule from the old 3.5 book, that could apply equally to melee & ranged options?

 

revise the cult units.  These guys just didn't get much attention in the port over from the previous codex, and that's pretty clear.  Give them all extra special weapon slots / options, make sure they have the tools needed to do their jobs (ie, assault transport for berzerkers), rethink thousand sons.  Let the randomness of possessed relate to their stats, not their equipment, and give them 'daemonic talon' rending attacks so they're actually reliably useful against a range of targets, along with the usual assault grenades.

 

I would revise chosen to be 'undivided only', and basically build them up as their own cult unit equivalent.  Cults (including chosen) would get the option for termie armor if the warlord matched their mark, and if the warlord matched their mark power armored versions would count as troops.  Lets you run cult lists led by princes.  Also divides those elites in such a way that they don't typically mix in the same list, which eases up some of the pressure of having more options than other books.

 

up the cost of the min size unit of cultists, but not the cost to add extra models.  Let them infiltrate or ride a rhino, but only when taken in minimum size.  Allow their champ to be upgraded to a CSM aspiring champion.

 

Re-work the marks to be in general cheaper (shouldn't be more than a couple points a model on any unit) and less significant effects (possibly free / no effect other than unlocking mark specific gear/icons), increase the range of icons available.

 

 

With only three flat out unit removals I'd make the following three outright unit additions:

 

Dual kit medium armor, medium cost daemon engine transports available to the power armored elite units (possessed, cults, chosen), one an assault transport, capacity 12, some abilities to support units assaulting out of it, the other a non-assault, capacity 6 transport with a heavier gun option (including mid sized daemonic cannon, this model replacing the vindicator rules-wise).

 

Dreadclaw, perhaps streamlined rules to be more of a direct drop pod equivalent, available as a transport for Dreads or any CSM infantry.

 

These options alone would be huge for the slow moving assault & close range units common in the CSM book, while allowing for the kind of armor saturation to make forge lists potentially functional without allied guard.  You'll already have the sort of infantry/bikish shooty assault armies you have now, plus you'll have vehicle assault, or vehicle shooty, or drop pod as serious build options.

 

 

If the various conglomerations of units are also enough to justify a new unit addition, add 'big mutants' / chaos ogryn to the heavy support section for the LatD fans, possibly dual kit with new spawn models & fantasy chaos ogres, with ogrish stats, relentless, and a range of brutish heavy weapon options to fire while they advance.  Maybe let them ride a rhino like min cultist units, albeit with the bulky restriction.

 

 

Add a few more special characters, but to justify having extras, specify that they 'must be the warlord' on all but Bile.  Several of the legion characters, including some of the undivided ones, would also specify 'no marks other than mine', but grant minor armywide buffs to those who do share their alignment (including allied daemons for the cult characters) as unique warlord traits.

 

 

gear wise, a wider range of tech gear to choose from unique to the smith, one or two dark mech flavored items available to others, and every alignment (including unaligned) has at least one or two gifts unique to them, including at least one that either makes the bearer more dangerous in a challenge, or punishes the enemy for refusing challenges (slaanesh might get to pick who accepts with no chance to refuse, khorne might gain rampage attacks if their challenge is refused, nurgle might force rerolls of successful hits cus they stink so bad, tzeentch might reroll failed saves, while undivided might just gain extra weapon skill and strength - just loose ideas for the general concept), something to make chaos marine characters, at least those who invest points in being duelists, slightly more intimidating in challenges than your run of the mill vet sarge or captain.

[Tenebris]

I agree with several points above, damn even a basic reroll of one on armor saves for MoT characters would be much more useful than the plain ++. But still, we will have this book for the following few years (or at least until the new SW appear) and at best we can hope for some allies supplements to "correct" us. Even given the chance with Daemons GW was found lacking, our codex is perhaps the only one which cannot benefit in more direct ways from our Battle Brothers...a thing that saddens me but alas we have to do with it.

 

As for my plans I am considering to join the Oath challenge, when I figure what to do and how to do it but we'll see. 

 

So far I am full steam ahead in my preparations for the 1st June, my first tournament of this year, the list is ready, the models are either at home or on their way and now the only thing that remains to do is to assemble and basecoat them (thanks the Dark Gods we are still speaking of a local tourney) and buy a case to carry them around.

 

Shamelessly I admit that the whole thing begun as the new codex syndrome, and due to my disheartening realization that 1/3 of the armies in my club are DA, so I went rebel and I plan to field lots of PINK marines, or sort of pink. 

 

Slaanesh is sadly underplayed, even by being perhaps the most important Chaos god in 40k due to eldar, dark eldar and old night, but in this edition GW had at least an ounce of good sense to make a fluffy Noise Marine army playable. And I plan to benefit from this troughout the entire edition. The time is good, the lore is good and so far the book (at least for Slaanesh) is good. Perhaps I will expand later to a daemon host since the codex is really interesting but until then I hope the get as many games from my army as possible. 

 

The few things that perhaps will go in my wargame budget plan are two chaos marine battleforces and another two NM upgrade packs. But so far I have 2000 points of Chaos Marines/Daemon Allies to assemble, paint, base and play. More than enough for my needs. 

 

And yes, one day or another I will unleash a full power armor horde of PINK marines upon my adversaries, let them see.

[Trevak Dal]

My current army has one Marine . I just wish I could bring myself to play more, but I just can´t see the merits

Yeah I wish GW would at least have the decency to re-brand it as Chaos Cultists and Heldrakes instead of Chaos Space Marines, though really I suppose that's 'On Us' because we're buying what's effective at netlists and for tournaments and such. I'd probably suck a lot at tournaments. My win-loss in normal games isn't too good, but my armys unit by unit Kill Death Ratio is awesome, I mean, Khorne would approve.

I just can't believe that Warp Talons can't assault the turn they arrive-they don't have frag grenades, what's the fear? I'm guessing that it'd be "too close to Vanguard Veterans", which is why we're the only Space Marine army that doesn't have drop pods, the Space Marine Universal Special Rule (ATSKNF) and Land Raider variants.

I guess I'd just like to see how GW's Designers would use Warp Talons in a 1500 point game (none of those "we threw everything against the wall" games they've been publishing now, though that is cool and I support that).

[minionboy]

I've been running an Abaddon list and it's been working out incredibly well, much to my surprise. The next thing on my assembly block is a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, which will then be followed up by 70 Mutants (mixing Catachans, Orks, Crypt Ghouls, Flagellants, Chaos marauders, Zombies and Kroot, plus a fist full of forsaken bits and 2 Chaos Mutation Sprues), which I will run either as marked cultists, or as Plague Zombies.  :)

 

After getting my massive zombie horde together, I've got to get my 20 Thousand Sons, 20 Noise Marines, 3 Predators, 10 Terminators, Heldrake, 20 cultists, 5 havocs and 3 mutilators built that have been plaguing my work bench... I have a problem with Chaos.

[Polaria]

My current army has one Marine . I just wish I could bring myself to play more, but I just can´t see the merits

Yeah I wish GW would at least have the decency to re-brand it as Chaos Cultists and Heldrakes instead of Chaos Space Marines, though really I suppose that's 'On Us' because we're buying what's effective at netlists and for tournaments and such. I'd probably suck a lot at tournaments. My win-loss in normal games isn't too good, but my armys unit by unit Kill Death Ratio is awesome, I mean, Khorne would approve.

I just can't believe that Warp Talons can't assault the turn they arrive-they don't have frag grenades, what's the fear? I'm guessing that it'd be "too close to Vanguard Veterans", which is why we're the only Space Marine army that doesn't have drop pods, the Space Marine Universal Special Rule (ATSKNF) and Land Raider variants.

I guess I'd just like to see how GW's Designers would use Warp Talons in a 1500 point game (none of those "we threw everything against the wall" games they've been publishing now, though that is cool and I support that).

Well, I've got 3 different HQs, 60 Cultists, 20 CSM, 2 Helbrutes and Heldrake at the moment. On my desk 4 Obliterators are waiting for painting. Out of my collection I regularly use almost everything (almost, because the Chaos Lord in Terminator armour rarely sees the field). Sure, the core of my Troops slot is Cultists, but I don't think my list would work without the heavier CSM for support, so they aren't redundant in my opinion. I'm actually pretty pleased with basic CSM entry because it has so much options that you can basically build them to suit a number of very different roles. Still, they are a "side dish" whereas my Cultists and Heldrake are the "beef". However, if I were to run a "Legion" army instead of Renegade one, I would probably go for Slaanesh or Nurgle. Both have Troops that are both awesome and cost-effective enough to use without point-saving cultists... Though you can get some wonderfull combos with zombies and Plague Marines.

All-in-all, I think there is a big problem in the 40K community as a whole and its the fact that internetz has made us lazy. Instead of trying different combos we just accept the latest internet rant as the literal, absolute truth, buy the net list and join the raving chorus shouting that the very net list we (and 100 others) own and play is the ONLY competitive choice. I guess its easy and makes us feel accepted in the bandwagon but its not all there is. The metagame varies so much from play group to next and even between tournaments (if you are into tournament scene) that the latest net list is probably only "good" instead of "best" in any particular meta.

The other route... Not believing internetz is always right, not believing GW always screws things up and not taking the "general consensus" on what is good and what is not isn't easy. Nine times out of ten when you are testing a new concept you literally step into crap. But one time out of ten you might find a nugget of gold. My main army is Necrons which I have played with 3rd edition and current 5th edition codices in both 5th and current 6th edition. I've played a lot of crappy lists, but I've also come up with at least one list that has BECOME the internet lists everyone buys and plays... Well, the Flyer/Wraith/Heldrake list you see now isn't mine, so maybe I should say used to buy and play, but still.

[TheDevourer]

I field Typhus with zombies and 2 drakes. If I were to play my secondary list it would involve daemon allies for decent troop choices, minimum csm troops and 3 drakes, aswell as a couple of oblis. the only csm i would field are plague marines or havocs sadly.

[Brother Nihm]

 

Prolly' not what you were asking for, but my future plans involves me selling it.

Why don't you move to HH instead? It gave me all I ever wanted from my army! After all, it would be way better to see veteran like yourself making next step instead of leaving.

Thanks for the suggestion but I've never been a fan of the HH rules/era, I've always been more of a Gothic War era nut.

 

 

Prolly' not what you were asking for, but my future plans involves me selling it.

Noooooooo!

 

Any particular reason?

Too many to go into detail, sorry. Suffice to say that I was the last Chaos player out of a very large community and had no reason to continue playing 40K. I have found fun elsewhere though!

 

 

Prolly' not what you were asking for, but my future plans involves me selling it.

 

Heresy! Brother Nimh leaving Chaos?! Will you start some new project or leaving the hobby entirely?

 

Leave altogether is a bit, I don't know, strong? It is a great universe and some of the novels still appeal to me.

I won't be starting any new projects that is for sure and I can't say if I will ever be back.

 

If I remember to, I will check in on the B&C from time to time - no promises though.

[hornywingythingy]

Okies, sad to see someone else turning away from chaos, though I do understand, this Junes price rises may do me in, if they are as excessive as I fear, its right on the limit of what I'm willing to pay atm.

[Sception]

you know what, the forum just fudged up this posts formatting completely, and I don't feel like fixing it, so forget it.

 

I really hate the way the new board operates sometimes.

[hornywingythingy]

you know what, the forum just fudged up this posts formatting completely, and I don't feel like fixing it, so forget it.

 

I really hate the way the new board operates sometimes.

?

 

Wassaap?

[Sception]

When I edit a post, the new board will frequently decide to just throw a bunch of html tags all over the body of the post that I then have to go back and re-edit to remove.  It can be more hassle than its worth to fix.

[hornywingythingy]

Ahh! I know what you mean, I'm normally browsing/posting from smartphone, and it can be twitchy! ;)

[Tenebris]

Oath given, time to get my stuff together, now that I think I need more Skull White spray. 

 

I sincerely hope for a new Greater Daemon kit, the old Keepers of Secrets are ugly as sin. More tits on daemonettes and fiends would be welcome too ;)

 

Now to be serious GW is lacking, damn my Obliterators still have not arrived and we are five weeks past my mail order at their shop...

[hornywingythingy]

More tits on daemonettes and fiends would be welcome too ;

I have loads of the diaz demonettes, so mine don't need more breasts! ;)