Dealing with power armoured opponents...

[The Dark Passenger]

Hi guys,

I'm a long time player but only just registered on here.

I've loved Dark Angels for a long time but only started using them last edition as I found my Eldar weren't enough of a challenge and many of the guys at my LGC can't seem to handle them.

I've built a mostly Deathwing with a bit of Green wing army but for some reason I seem to really struggle against power armoured opponents. I have just entered into a league at my LGC where 3 players are using Grey Knights, 2 Space Wolves, 3 Chaos Marines and 1 Blood Angels. The vast majority of my games will be against power armoured opponents and without my Star cannons etc I'm finding it hard to deal enough damage.

Any tips that you guys can suggest apart from mass Plasma? I've always loved the idea of Deathwing so ideally I'd like to stick with them but any suggestions will be gratefully received!

Thanks in advance.

[facmanpob]

The issue, as I see it, can be boiled down to several simple points (assuming you are using Deathwing):

 

• PA enemies have the same BS (so their hit %age is the same)
• PA enemies have the same strength ranged weapons as you, so they cause shooting wounds at the same rate
• You have 2+ armour vs 3+ armour, so you save, on average, 16% more wounds from general shooting
• Your terminators cost roughly 2.5 times more than enemy marines

Everything else is really a side issue in my opinion. So the key thing for me is that your enemy's troops are only slightly less survivable than yours in the shooting phase, but much, much cheaper, which means he's got far more space for 'bling' in his army than you have. Now, you can't easily increase your damage output, so the solution is to increase survivability via a Deathwing Command Squad with Standard of Fortitude. This will go a long way to making the shooting phase more evenly matched, and will swing the Assault phase in your favour.

 

At that point it then all comes down to good generalship, and I can't help you there as I'm pants at using Deathwing ;)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

plasma cannon Termies

 

Mass hail of bullets

 

LandRaider Crusaders with Standard of Devastation?

[Deathwing70]

to continue on what was said above... if you're using deathwing vs their power armored forces, shooting won't do you much more good as they hit and wound you at the same rate (but you do get smaller squads with equel firepower, you might use cover to your advantage to focus more fire onto individual parts of his army?).

Terminators also do come with at least an AP3 close combat weapon, how many of them will carry a AP2 close combat weapon to negate your advantage there (you still get a 5+ save against those + at least you strike at the same time as them)?

Whether or not to start gearing them with lightning claws / thunder hammers I don't know, I don't actually play the game at all... just theory :)

[elphilo]

plasma cannon Termies

 

Mass hail of bullets

 

LandRaider Crusaders with Standard of Devastation?

Don't forget about the Land Raider Redeemer, AP3 flamer burns marines really good.

 

But pretty much this. If you're running Deathwing and are running into a lot of 3+ saves, Plasma Cannons are your best bet.

[The Dark Passenger]

Thanks for the help guys, I've always shyed away from The Standard of Fortitude because of the cost and the fact that the Command squad is no longer a scoring unit. I can see the benefits for it and if I can get a coherent strike (my deepstrike rolls aren't great!) it could well help.

I may well give this a shot in a game that I have coming up against a Blood Angel force, the powerfists will certainly help against the pesky FNP Death company!!

[[TA]Typher]

Here is my quick Tactica

 

 

Heavy Weapons: I tend to shy away from plasma cannons. missing over watch shots and the possibility of having your own shot scatter back to you if you are close makes me not like them. Plus having a "it gets hot" model in a already finite model count army is a bad idea. Instead I'd go CML. They can consistently kill 2 marines with krak missiles AND take out vehicles. Heavy flamers aren't bad either. Forcing a lot of saves will usually kill something. a lot of times if done correctly this can lead to first blood. Assault cannons aren't bad and I'd rather take them then Plasma.

 

Positioning: Positioning is the DW's best ally. Placing your units in places that limits enemy fire really helps. The main enemy to a DW force is hordes of armor saves.... eventually you are going to fail them. It's better to take 1 or 2 Invuln saves then 50 high normal armor saves. With TH/SS's and correct model placement you can protect your units effectively. Sure you'll still lose guys, but placement is the key. For example in my batrep I place a TH/SS term AND my librarian in front of my Banner of Fortitude. Under a withering barrage of fire I lose the TH/SS guy and my librarian takes a wound. This is much better then losing the banner and saving the librarian from being wounded.

 

Terrian: Make sure when you place terrian (or when your opponent does) that there is buildings/trees that block line of sight. Having a blank map in which you can see everything is really bad for the DW.

 

Overwhelming force: Fighting your terms vs other terms = Random winner. Instead use overwhelming force. Use two or three units vs his one. Unless he is playing DW too, his terms are more expendable then yours. Fighting a pitched battle against them isn't in your favor. He can afford to lose his terms.. you can't. 10 of your guys vs 5 of his helps save your terms.

 

Teleport homers: Bad Scattering can lose you the game. Some people like deepstriking Belial. His ability to not scatter is great. I think this isn't always the best option. I think of it like this. Fighting a war vs fighting a battle. DSing Belial will let you place one (1) unit without scattering, BUT deploying him instead of DSing him can let you place ALL of your terms on the board without scattering. In mixed wing matches DSing him might not be as bad, because you probably don't have a lot of other DSing units that rely on his homer, but in a DW army... you really need his teleport homer. Which would you rather win the battle or the war?

 

As much as I hate it, running at least one unit of bikes will help too. Having additional homers givers you options. Remember unit placement is the key. Protecting your low model count should be your first priority.

 

 

Command Squads: I love'em. The Banner of Fortitude is really a must. Giving that little bit of extra protection really helps the DW. Unfortunately it's a pretty expensive items. I usually run several TH/SS in the unit to help protect it. Look at my batrep here. you can see that I keep it close to the majority of my force and it really pays for itself.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275029-batrep-dw-vs-csm-w-vassalpics/

 

 

Hope this helps.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Here is my quick Tactica

 

 

Heavy Weapons: I tend to shy away from plasma cannons. missing over watch shots and the possibility of having your own shot scatter back to you if you are close makes me not like them. Plus having a "it gets hot" model in a already finite model count army is a bad idea. Instead I'd go CML. They can consistently kill 2 marines with krak missiles AND take out vehicles. Heavy flamers aren't bad either. Forcing a lot of saves will usually kill something. a lot of times if done correctly this can lead to first blood. Assault cannons aren't bad and I'd rather take them then Plasma.

 

I disagree with your assessment of plasma, gets hot is a 1/6 chance, then you have a 1/6 chance to actually lose the model. its like a 1/36 chance of happening, and, if you have a Librarian with Prescience in the unit, then you can re-roll.

 

Though I agree that Cyclones are always great and probably the best heavy weapon, but do not underestimate the Plasma Cannon against Marines.

[shortysl]

 

Here is my quick Tactica

 

 

Heavy Weapons: I tend to shy away from plasma cannons. missing over watch shots and the possibility of having your own shot scatter back to you if you are close makes me not like them. Plus having a "it gets hot" model in a already finite model count army is a bad idea. Instead I'd go CML. They can consistently kill 2 marines with krak missiles AND take out vehicles. Heavy flamers aren't bad either. Forcing a lot of saves will usually kill something. a lot of times if done correctly this can lead to first blood. Assault cannons aren't bad and I'd rather take them then Plasma.

 

I disagree with your assessment of plasma, gets hot is a 1/6 chance, then you have a 1/6 chance to actually lose the model. its like a 1/36 chance of happening, and, if you have a Librarian with Prescience in the unit, then you can re-roll.

 

Though I agree that Cyclones are always great and probably the best heavy weapon, but do not underestimate the Plasma Cannon against Marines.

Especially if he's packing Terminators or other 2+ save models in his army. Nothing scares Sanguinary Guard/Wolf Guard etc. like a Plasma Cannon

[Jehoel]

 

Here is my quick Tactica

 

 

Heavy Weapons: I tend to shy away from plasma cannons. missing over watch shots and the possibility of having your own shot scatter back to you if you are close makes me not like them. Plus having a "it gets hot" model in a already finite model count army is a bad idea. Instead I'd go CML. They can consistently kill 2 marines with krak missiles AND take out vehicles. Heavy flamers aren't bad either. Forcing a lot of saves will usually kill something. a lot of times if done correctly this can lead to first blood. Assault cannons aren't bad and I'd rather take them then Plasma.

 

I disagree with your assessment of plasma, gets hot is a 1/6 chance, then you have a 1/6 chance to actually lose the model. its like a 1/36 chance of happening, and, if you have a Librarian with Prescience in the unit, then you can re-roll.

 

Though I agree that Cyclones are always great and probably the best heavy weapon, but do not underestimate the Plasma Cannon against Marines.

 

I run my Deathwing command squad with a plasma cannon and the Banner of Fortitude. FNP defeats "Gets Hot" pretty good.

[[TA]Typher]

I'm not saying the aren't useful, just that they have some pretty good drawbacks. Unless you know you'll be fighting terminators why would you take it over a CML?

 

For example: against most, non 2+ armor armies a cml beats the plasma hands down. In fact the only area it beats a cml is against terminators.

 

Plus cml's can fire snaps shots And don't scatter back on your unit if you roll bad.

[Jehoel]

Well, I run a mixture of weapons since the new codex came out. Assault cannons and CML's in about equal amounts, with the plasma cannon as a HQ killer. It can be a bit of overkill when I go against IG, but better safe than sorry. Only option I don't use is the heavy flamer. Just can't get behind that horrible short range. I use Deathwing Knights for my primary assault unit anyways.

[[TA]Typher]

 

Well, I run a mixture of weapons since the new codex came out. Assault cannons and CML's in about equal amounts, with the plasma cannon as a HQ killer. It can be a bit of overkill when I go against IG, but better safe than sorry. Only option I don't use is the heavy flamer. Just can't get behind that horrible short range. I use Deathwing Knights for my primary assault unit anyways.

I have a deathwing army. DWA + teleport homer + hvy flamer often equals first blood.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I'm not saying the aren't useful, just that they have some pretty good drawbacks. Unless you know you'll be fighting terminators why would you take it over a CML?

 

For example: against most, non 2+ armor armies a cml beats the plasma hands down. In fact the only area it beats a cml is against terminators.

 

Plus cml's can fire snaps shots And don't scatter back on your unit if you roll bad.

 

coolness factor :P

 

Also, AP2 blast...you have 2 shots, 1 possible kill with he Cyclone with no armour save. It is more likely to get a good 2-3 hits with plasma than it is to get 2 kills with Krak missiles from a Cyclone.

 

If you are running Cyclone styles, run x5 Landspeeders with Typhoons.

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying the aren't useful, just that they have some pretty good drawbacks. Unless you know you'll be fighting terminators why would you take it over a CML?

 

For example: against most, non 2+ armor armies a cml beats the plasma hands down. In fact the only area it beats a cml is against terminators.

 

Plus cml's can fire snaps shots And don't scatter back on your unit if you roll bad.

 

coolness factor :P

 

Also, AP2 blast...you have 2 shots, 1 possible kill with he Cyclone with no armour save. It is more likely to get a good 2-3 hits with plasma than it is to get 2 kills with Krak missiles from a Cyclone.

 

If you are running Cyclone styles, run x5 Landspeeders with Typhoons.

A plasma cannon is cool, but playing a semi-competent opponent who wisely spaces will net you 1 hit per shot. The last Ork game I played made small blast template almost useless. So, like I said unless you are fighting Terminators (or the equivalent) the CML is dramatically better. Shooting at a spaced out meq unit will net a plasma cannon 1 possible kill with no armor save, while a CML will net up to 2 with no armor save.

 

I'd rather have the CML. Plus if they are close enough and I roll badly I have a chance to kill my own terminators with a plasma cannon. The CML doesn't have that problem. Plus the CML can fire overwatch and the Plasma cannon cannot. The CML has longer range, has twice as many shots, has a higher strength (which can insta-kill most IC's unlike the plasma), plus it allows the terminator to hold addition weapons! Against everything EXCEPT 2+ armor saves the CML beats the plasma cannon hands down.

 

Would I ever take a plasma cannon? Maybe, but only because I have converted two models to have them and for the coolness factor I suppose. The CML is so much better I don't see how you wouldn't take one over a PC, unless you just didn't have the model. Maybe if I tailored my army to play against a terminator heavy list, but in general I make generic armies that can fight everyone.

 

I disagree with your assessment of plasma, gets hot is a 1/6 chance, then you have a 1/6 chance to actually lose the model. its like a 1/36 chance of happening, and, if you have a Librarian with Prescience in the unit, then you can re-roll.

 

Though I agree that Cyclones are always great and probably the best heavy weapon, but do not underestimate the Plasma Cannon against Marines.

Do you get to reroll the gets hot dice for prescience when shooting a template? Couldn't it be argued that the scatter dice is the shot not the get's hot dice? Hmmmmm... FAQ!

[BugbugsDaddy]

Belial with a 10 man termie squad with 2 heavy flamers DWA on turn 1.  Heavy flamers are twin linked for the first turn (thanks Belial ;) ) rerolling to wound, not to mention all of the possible storm bolter hits that are twin linked as well (thanks again Belial ;) ).  Then Belial is on  the field so you can teleport within 6" of him and not scatter on turn 2 just before you assault and smash the heretics.  Hope this helps, seems to work pretty well for me.

[cielaq]

[TA]Typher - Gets Hot rule states that "If a model has the ability to re-roll  its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Getys Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.", so  Prescience will help here.

[[TA]Typher]

Belial with a 10 man termie squad with 2 heavy flamers DWA on turn 1. Heavy flamers are twin linked for the first turn (thanks Belial ;) ) rerolling to wound, not to mention all of the possible storm bolter hits that are twin linked as well (thanks again Belial ;) ). Then Belial is on the field so you can teleport within 6" of him and not scatter on turn 2 just before you assault and smash the heretics. Hope this helps, seems to work pretty well for me.

Unless I'm mistaken DWA is either turn one or two, not turn one AND turn two.

 

To use his homer he either has to deploy before the battle OR the other terms have to be in normal reserve. So, your other units will arrive depending on you reserve rolls.

[[TA]Typher]

[TA]Typher - Gets Hot rule states that "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Getys Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.", so Prescience will help here.

 

The exact wording is:

 

"Prescience is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 12". Whilst the power is in effect the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls."

 

The scatter dice on a plasma cannon dictate if the weapon hits. The gets hot dice dictates if the weapon can fire. Like I said a argument could be made that Prescience wouldn't effect a plasma cannon's overheat as not shooting and missing are two seperate things.

 

Haha not trying to l cause more Problems for our codex but it's interesting nontheless

[Balthamal]

Plasma cannon vs CML is always a case of risk vs reward. On the one hand you have almost certain kills on 2 marines vs the possibility of killing 4/5. If you feel comfortable taking the risk then plasma is great. Especially given the armies you've listed you'll expect to see a fair amount of 2+ saves in there.

 

Might be worth the effort if you can find out what you'll be facing

[cielaq]

[TA]Typher, but Gets hot rule is pretty clear - if:

a) the weapon does not use "To hit" roll (and Blast weapons do not), and

b) you have the ability to re-roll To hit rolls (and you can, thanks to Prescience)

then instead you can re-roll the "gets hot" die.

I don't see how it can be argued otherwise.

[The Dark Passenger]

Thankyou again guys, there is some invaluable info in this thread now.

For reference my first battle of the league will be against a blood angel army that'll likely be something like the following:

 

Mephiston

2x Assault Squads with sanginary priests

Death company assault squad in a Rhino

Storm Raven often with Dreadnought inside

Devastators

Terminator TH/SS unit (In the Raven)

 

Or at least that was what he used last time we played and I've got to be honest he crushed my Inquisition army in pretty short order. I just couldn't get past the Feel no pain on the assault squads.

[elphilo]

While I agree that CMLs are all around the better weapon to take. We're missing one thing about it. The cost. Its the most expensive heavy weapon in a Deathwing Army. And if I can shave some points so I can take upgrade X for unit Y, I'm going to drop the CML and get a PC.

 

Also I can see you wanting to take a PC over a CML in a tournament environment. Not being able to tailor your list between opponents makes them a little more valuable. Now I'm not saying drop all the CMLs, but at least one needs to be taken.

[BugbugsDaddy]

Belial with a 10 man termie squad with 2 heavy flamers DWA on turn 1. Heavy flamers are twin linked for the first turn (thanks Belial ) rerolling to wound, not to mention all of the possible storm bolter hits that are twin linked as well (thanks again Belial ). Then Belial is on the field so you can teleport within 6" of him and not scatter on turn 2 just before you assault and smash the heretics. Hope this helps, seems to work pretty well for me.

Unless I'm mistaken DWA is either turn one or two, not turn one AND turn two.

To use his homer he either has to deploy before the battle OR the other terms have to be in normal reserve. So, your other units will arrive depending on you reserve rolls.

That's what I said: Belail (attached to a 10 man squad) DWA on turn 1. On turn 2 Belial is already on the field so when you teleport (via reserves) within 6" of Belial you don't have to worry about scattering. The 10 man squad + Belial can shoot, and so can the "new squad(s)", then Belial and the first 10 man squad assault whatever is left.

[Aegnor]

Disregard, I was talking tosh. Going to go write "I must read the rules carefully" 100 times on the board.