Company Veterans - How effectively do they fill the role?

[Brother Darklight]

Hail, Battle Cousins!

 

I've been looking at interesting ally combinations between my armies, mostly to support my main BT Crusade, and one of my available options is the DA, but what to use?

 

I was reading through the FAQ and stumbled across the Company Veterans Errata. Instead of 3 models swapping out their boltguns for options x,y, and z, the whole unit can!

 

Well since the spiritual equivalent in the BT dex is... lacking (Seriously, Sword Brethren are rather terrible for their price). I figured I could try to make use of them somehow.

 

How do you guys usually field them, if at all?

 

The most humourous combination I thought of was have the whole unit use Plasma Pistols/Bolt pistols.  Probably in a Rhino. Ride up, hop out and Gunslinger the crap out of their target.  Granted this is pretty expensive, point-wise, but I figure it'd be worth a laugh if nothing else. 

 

The idea is to provide some form of support shooting to the BT's stabby-stabby nature, and as inexpensive as they are, Devastators aren't all that maneuverable (which is a necessity against a few of my usual opponents).

 

Thoughts on Veterans? Opinions? Experiences? Anything? 

 

Relevant info:

• Ususal game sizes: 1500-2000
• Casual. Tournaments on a weekend at someone's place is as competitive as we get.

 

Thanks a ton in advance.

[[TA]Typher]

I've only used them once in recent games and they didn't do well. For the point values they seem underwhelming compared to other options.. IE: deathwing knights.

 

If you kit them out so they have a great punch they seem underpowered for the cost.

 

I suppose a good option would to make them CC heavy and place Azrael with them, that way they would get a Invul save relatively cheap.

 

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I find them less than useful except with Azrael, in which case they do really well. However, when I run them, its in a Crusader with a Chaplain for the re-rolls, 3 storm shields, 2 power fists and 8 power weapons.

 

Unless its Azzy, then no storm shields

[TheForgottenAngel]

Dang! Didn't realize I could give all of them special weapons! Take Azrael and take the Furious Charge trait and power weapons + Azraels blinding MC Plasmagun = Dead unit!

[[TA]Typher]

 

I find them less than useful except with Azrael, in which case they do really well. However, when I run them, its in a Crusader with a Chaplain for the re-rolls, 3 storm shields, 2 power fists and 8 power weapons.

 

Unless its Azzy, then no storm shields

Wouldn't be better just to use Deathwing Knights. More bang for your buck.

 

 

10 Vets with the load out you quoted + a chappy = 470 points

 

vs

 

10 DW Knights = 465 points

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

 

 

I find them less than useful except with Azrael, in which case they do really well. However, when I run them, its in a Crusader with a Chaplain for the re-rolls, 3 storm shields, 2 power fists and 8 power weapons.

 

Unless its Azzy, then no storm shields

Wouldn't be better just to use Deathwing Knights. More bang for your buck.

 

 

10 Vets with the load out you quoted + a chappy = 470 points

 

vs

 

10 DW Knights = 465 points

 

He was specifically asking about Company-Veterans based on his theme, I was trying to give him the bast he could that worked with his theme and was still somewhat effective.

 

But yes, if I was going down that route personally I would run 10 DWK

[shabbadoo]

The downside is that Deathwing Knights can't run stuff down, while Company Vets can.  And Deathwing Knight's weapons are AP 4.  Company Vet's weapons can be AP 3 or better, always, which does have it uses in a protracted fight.

[Brother Immolator]

The downside is that Deathwing Knights can't run stuff down, while Company Vets can.  And Deathwing Knight's weapons are AP 4.  Company Vet's weapons can be AP 3 or better, always, which does have it uses in a protracted fight.

DWKs are not for protracted engagements. You charge them in the right unit/MOC, they hit it like a freight train and thats it.

Once they are done with their alpha target (and assuming you are not facing CSMs or anything with ap3) they are relegated to been a decent CC squad. They are not going to cry over ap4 considering the stats they come with. Had I the option to take power swords in that particular unit I would Ignore it completely.

[shabbadoo]

So you feed them a chum unit that they must MOC or be locked up with.  Then the enemy picks them off or locks them up with even a mediocre MEQ unit or a Dreadnought type unit.  By protracted fight I don't just mean a multi-round combat, but also multiple combats over the course of an entire game, against different units.  After they shoot their wad, Deathwing Knights are not so awesome against MEQs and Dreadnoughts, and a Defiler will just play with them like Lenny once their Str 10 uber wackings are no longer available to them.  A decent opponent can minimize their effect more easily than they can the more versatile Company Vets.  Deathwing Knights are obviously still good though- they just have limitations which can more easily be exploited.

[Brother Immolator]

So you feed them a chum unit that they must MOC or be locked up with.  Then the enemy picks them off or locks them up with even a mediocre MEQ unit or a Dreadnought type unit.  By protracted fight I don't just mean a multi-round combat, but also multiple combats over the course of an entire game, against different units.  After they shoot their wad, Deathwing Knights are not so awesome against MEQs and Dreadnoughts, and a Defiler will just play with them like Lenny once their Str 10 uber wackings are no longer available to them.  A decent opponent can minimize their effect more easily than they can the more versatile Company Vets.  Deathwing Knights are obviously still good though- they just have limitations which can more easily be exploited.

All this is pure speculation. If I would to level the field (so to speak), I would ask you thus? What the heck are your knights doing near a dread in the first place and why you let them alone and unsupported?

 

With meq, they are doing fine. The loss of Ap is compensated with increased WS, T and STR. Statistically you will score more kills that way.

What are the company vets going to do against a AV13 walker anyway if they are tooled with power swords?

 

As for their limitations, name a unit which doesnt have them and Ill show you a way around it. Are we done talking into a sterile enviroment and can we start taking actual tabletop conditions and strategies into account?

 

I am not advocating that DWKs are the best unit ever but on the right hands they are a very powerfull tool. The loss of a single Ap value in their weapon is far outweighted by their other bonuses.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Can we please steer the thread into company vets and forget about DWK? Thank you! ;)

[Spaniard]

One thing I find useful and somewhat funny when it works, 6-7 vets with ccombi meltas in a drop pod. My usual opponents always brings atleast one land raiders to the board so their somewhat of my suicide squad.

 

 

[Brother Darklight]

Thanks for the replies!

Common ideas seem to be keep Azrael with them for a good ol' Invuln... Not bad. Didn't think of that. I like it!

I've been known to use seemingly stupid-expensive deathstar units just for the 'Lulz' in the past, and strategically I usually can make them work. Azrael with a full complement of Veterans loaded out with power weapons in an LRC does sound like my kind of unit!

As cool as DWK are, there are circumstances where TDA just doesn't cut it. The Knights in particular don't have ranged weapons, and they can't Sweeping Advance. Not to mention, the only time I roll solid ones is when a 2+ armour save is involved...

@Spaniard: I've done things like that with my Vanilla SM's Sternguard. Loaded 10 Sterns all with combi-flamers, attached Kantor, and dropped them all in a Redeemer... Usual opponent runs Orks a lot of the time, too... Made him cry a little inside, methinks.

[shabbadoo]

Don't just go with power weapons.  Put a power fist or two in there also.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Don't just go with power weapons.  Put a power fist or two in there also.

 

This. It won't be effective without the Fists. You need them to hammer dreads and the like incase your opponent gets them in the way.

[shortysl]

I find them less than useful except with Azrael, in which case they do really well. However, when I run them, its in a Crusader with a Chaplain for the re-rolls, 3 storm shields, 2 power fists and 8 power weapons.

 

Unless its Azzy, then no storm shields

That's one darn expensive unit, but I have been looking for a replacement for a certain TDA unit (sorry, Chaplain Lucifer, I promise this is on-topic) for my 'pure' 3rd Company list. Not sure if I'd run all 10 Veterans, maybe 6 or 7 instead. That's your 'hammer' unit obviously, if I may ask, what do you use as your 'anvil' units?

 

OP, I have run Company Veterans before although I ran them as a group of 6 with just Bolt Pistols and Chainswords (they were the only models I had available). I found them to be less than effective, but in hindsight I believe that to be more because of my lack of specialist equipment than because they're a 'bad' unit. I do think they're better as a fluffy unit for certain army lists as opposed to a powerful unit because there are more devastating alternatives, but I personally can't wait to get my Veterans back onto the table. I'm even thinking of getting the FW Mk. IV Assault Squad to represent them (for a bit of bling) but again, for fluff reasons, I may just stick with the robed Veteran kits.

[Onisuzume]

Well, back in the old codex where we didn't have the Friendship Banner, giving a unit mostly storm bolters was a pretty cheap way to get quite a bit of dakka.

These days, the Friendship Banner is obviously a better choice than storm bolters.

 

I guess that loading the entire unit with combi-weapons would be an option.

A balanced mix of combi-plasma, combi-flamer and combi-melta along with a nearby Friendship Banner could provide quite a nice firebase that can (one-shot) deal with almost anything.

[march10k]

LOLOLOL...

 

OP says:

 

 

The idea is to provide some form of support shooting to the BT's stabby-stabby nature, and as inexpensive as they are, Devastators aren't all that maneuverable (which is a necessity against a few of my usual opponents).

 

And you answer with melee options...power sword vets and DWKs.

 

If going the veteran route (I wouldn't), either go meltaspam with a couple of power weapons sprinkled in, or do the same thing with flamers...stepping out of a drop pod and dropping down 5+ flame templates is solid gold, and a D3 of autohits per weapon when receiving a charge will make people think twice, too.

 

Otherwise...might I recommend ravenwing?  Sammy as the HQ, and then a (scoring!) squadron?  Six bikes (up to two special weapons) plus a separate attack bike makes for some nice mobile dakka...if you want more than the two minimum units in the allied contingent, perhaps some RWKs?  Plasma talons are...plasmically delicious!  Just what the doctor ordered, in terms of mobile dakka that scares marines!

[IanSturrock]

Ooh, you could do some nice stuff with combi-weapons and dakka banner, indeedy!

 

I'm thinking of a drop pod + bike dakka banner approach. Drop your pod(s) of vets, who unleash combi-weapons to clear transports. Move the bike command squad with the dakka banner in range next turn so your vets (who this turn haven't moved) get 4 shots each. You get rid of one of the drawbacks of non-relentless Salvos, because on turn one you're not shooting your bolters anyway.

[pueriexdeus]

Its a shame GW took away Thunder Hammers from our Co Vets.

[Bryan Blaire]

Otherwise...might I recommend ravenwing?  Sammy as the HQ, and then a (scoring!) squadron?  Six bikes (up to two special weapons) plus a separate attack bike makes for some nice mobile dakka...if you want more than the two minimum units in the allied contingent, perhaps some RWKs?  Plasma talons are...plasmically delicious!  Just what the doctor ordered, in terms of mobile dakka that scares marines!

Actually, the OP can't do that.

 

Ravenwing Combat Squadrons can never be troops in an Allied Detachment, only in the Primary Detachment. Sammael wouldn't give you any benefit beyond his own abilities in an Allied Detachment. Same thing goes for Azrael and Belial as well. No FOC monkeying in an Allied Detachment by any of those guys.

[The Milkman Of Baal]

hmmmm just got a box of vets, after reading this post might convert them to a command squad.

[Apahllo]

9 cyphers and a lvl1 Libby (div) with PFG in a pod is how I use my vets.

 

Kinda expensive but totally worth the scare factor. My friends will throw everything at that squad when ever I take it. In the end its just a fun alternative to the DW.

[jeremy1391]

Drop pod suicide squads with combi weapons just like sternguard.