When do we really need Mephiston?

[knife&fork]

I've recently started a new army project and I'm looking to use Mephiston again after having him spent the better part of 6th in his KR-multicase coffin.

 

The problem I run into is the cost. I've been used to a HQ below 150 so those extra points really hurt when I try to get some saturation (aka spam) going. 

 

For instance I was trying to piece together a AV13 spam list just now. Triple Vindicators, triple Baal and triple fragioso.... No way to make the troops work with Mephiston there. Same goes for the fast attack builds I've been looking at.

 

 

My question to all of you guys;

 

What do you trade for Mephiston?

In which areas does he make up for the compromises you make to include him?

[Sanguis militis]

Personally, when I use mephiston, I like to run 2 stormravens and a land raider as my only vehicles besides possibly a furioso or two, podded. That usually is about half my points and lets me spend the rest on 3-4 full assault squads backed by priests and possibly a second librarian for divination. I love how durable stormravens are + the amount of firepower they put out, and when I'm feeling really ballsy I'll drive mephiston right up to the nastiest enemy unit my opponent has in the landraider

[Memento Of Prospero]

I've recently started a new army project and I'm looking to use Mephiston again after having him spent the better part of 6th in his KR-multicase coffin.

 

The problem I run into is the cost. I've been used to a HQ below 150 so those extra points really hurt when I try to get some saturation (aka spam) going. 

 

For instance I was trying to piece together a AV13 spam list just now. Triple Vindicators, triple Baal and triple fragioso.... No way to make the troops work with Mephiston there. Same goes for the fast attack builds I've been looking at.

 

 

My question to all of you guys;

 

What do you trade for Mephiston?

In which areas does he make up for the compromises you make to include him?

 

What is that, 3000 points lists?

you only need 6 peices or so with high armour to saturate the field. otherwise it's overkill.

[knife&fork]

Sub 2K, 1995 to be exact.

 

Not so much overkill as trying to get an edge.

[BAHERSH]

 

I've recently started a new army project and I'm looking to use Mephiston again after having him spent the better part of 6th in his KR-multicase coffin.

 

The problem I run into is the cost. I've been used to a HQ below 150 so those extra points really hurt when I try to get some saturation (aka spam) going. 

 

For instance I was trying to piece together a AV13 spam list just now. Triple Vindicators, triple Baal and triple fragioso.... No way to make the troops work with Mephiston there. Same goes for the fast attack builds I've been looking at.

 

 

My question to all of you guys;

 

What do you trade for Mephiston?

In which areas does he make up for the compromises you make to include him?

 

What is that, 3000 points lists?

you only need 6 peices or so with high armour to saturate the field. otherwise it's overkill.

 

It could be a 1850 pt list with a cheap HQ and 400 pts of AM's/ scouts. Probably 2000 pts though.

 

 

Mephy is a beast, but it ultimately depends on your scheme. Personally, I won't take him in a sub 2000 pt game, for the same reason (I feel there's better options than a 250 pt HQ). Then again, a 230 pt S Raven may get shot down before it does anything at all, while Mephy is much more likely to cause some havoc, and is much more resilient.  

 

I've been toying with the idea of adding Mephy to my list, but ultimately I'm not sure where he would belong... I run more of a gunny list and am not sure I'd be able to get him safely into CC.

[MayorDaley]

DC Tycho is the same as Mephiston; by way of being a HQ that can't join other units...

I do doubt that you can get the same utility out of Tycho, but he could be fun.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Well, our cheapest and, imho, most effective compulsory HQ choice is a JP libby coming at 125 points.  This leaves 125 points to spend replacing him with Mephiston.  There's not much I can think of for 125 points that's really worth trading away Mephy other than perhaps another JP libby...

 

That extra 125 points gets you a sauntering behemoth of a character and paragon of pure manliness on the battlefield.  I keep his codex powers and hide him amongst a RAS squad with an attached priest.  The great part is, he has a monstrous creature stat-line on the smallest base possible.  He's ridiculously easy to give cover saves to and gets FNP against everything.  In capable hands even your opponent's most devastating list has an extremely difficult time killing him, which most of the time denies your opponent the warlord kill.  Essentially Mephy's very presence turns the RAS horde into a walking ball of CC wreck-potential against everything but 2+, but even then termi-equivalents can be drowned in attacks.  He loves to make a mockery of enemy troops while the RAS deal with other targets.

 

At the end of the day, he's there to mess with your opponent's head.  His stats are impressive enough to not be ignored, and his speed makes it impossible for him to miss combat.  He is the lord of death.

[Father Mapple]

3 Fragiosos with heavy flamers and drop pods = 510

2 Baal + HB Sponsons + 2 Vindicators + dozer blade = 445

Mephiston + 4 Razorback 5 man assault + flamer + TL pg and Lascannon = 840

10 Points to play with.

 

This gives you 2 Drop Pods turn 1. 

4 AV13 front facing hulls for the 4 AV11 hulls to hide behind. They're all the same chasis, so the only thing sticking up is the Razorback turrets, so they get cover.

Mephiston hides behind ANY of these tanks. 

 

That's 12 vehicles on the table turn 1 (including drop pods) and the infantry sized monstrous creature which is mephiston. 

 

What's the problem here?

[The Milkman Of Baal]

I love mepheston, I'll always try and leaver him into any build I do. Give him the generic powers and he's a great buffer for your list, run him with armor or troops and he'll soak up an unreal amount of shots and then of course there's his cc which if you choose the right victims is unreal. I love him I really do and like was said previously he's great at unnerving your oppo and making him rethink his target priorities.

[knife&fork]

3 Fragiosos with heavy flamers and drop pods = 510

2 Baal + HB Sponsons + 2 Vindicators + dozer blade = 445

Mephiston + 4 Razorback 5 man assault + flamer + TL pg and Lascannon = 840

10 Points to play with.

 

This gives you 2 Drop Pods turn 1. 

4 AV13 front facing hulls for the 4 AV11 hulls to hide behind. They're all the same chasis, so the only thing sticking up is the Razorback turrets, so they get cover.

Mephiston hides behind ANY of these tanks. 

 

That's 12 vehicles on the table turn 1 (including drop pods) and the infantry sized monstrous creature which is mephiston. 

 

What's the problem here?

 

Not enough AV13 or a powerful enough Alpha strike, and frankly a rather weak troop selection that will have to further clutter the <24" area in order to make full use of their capabilities.

 

Well, our cheapest and, imho, most effective compulsory HQ choice is a JP libby coming at 125 points.  This leaves 125 points to spend replacing him with Mephiston.  There's not much I can think of for 125 points that's really worth trading away Mephy other than perhaps another JP libby...

 

The point difference from Mephiston to another viable HQ doesn't have to buy a complete unit to be felt. Those points could also go to vital upgrades and buffing unit sizes. I'm not so sure about the Librarian either. With the loss of the hood bubble, vulnerability in challenges, easy warlord VP and 'runes' being more common with allies he's not the auto include he used to be. 

 

 

As stated earlier, I know Mephiston is good, but after not including him for a while it becomes obvious just how much those extra points can do elsewhere in a list. 

[Jolemai]

I am currently using Mephiston in my 1750 list. As you can see from the list, I have sacrificed addition troop choices to fit him in and I have yet to decide if this is a good thing.

 

From my collection I can only Tacticals and Scouts and while this would give me a better platform to score from, sadly I don't find them effective or cost effective in this list.

[Zynk Kaladin]

K&F, I apologies. I misunderstood your topic and all got excited over meph.

Definitely spreading upgrades around is beneficial. I'll take a look at my lists and try making them without meph and see what happens.

[Calnus]

My main reason to include Meph over a Librarian is I don't give away Warlord.  Seriously, I have NEVER had a lib survive a whole game in 6th, and while Mephiston draws a ton of firepower while on the board, when I have wanted to make him last, he survives the whole game.

 

My usual replacement for Meph is Lib +Furioso.  If I need to take down similar targets, I use Talons on the dreadnought.  But by the time I add the requisite pod/SR, that combo is more expensive.

 

Honestly, there are plenty of times I would have rather taken no HQ (if possible) than swapping Meph for a librarian and spending 125 points somewhere else. Since I like to have a beater unit in my list at any time, the Librarian, lovably cheap as he is, just doesn't cut it.

[Xenith]

When do you need Mephiston?

 

When you have a problem, and no-one else can help.

 

 

 

And if you can find him.

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

I used him proxied for once just to try him out in a 3K game and he was interesting. Eldar shut down his Psychich abilities somewhat, but he did create a nice mental fear attention magnet.

 

A game under 2000 points makes it difficult for me to field him.

[Ushtarador]

As already mentioned, a hidden catch is that losing Mephi only gains you 125 points, as you still need an HQ. I can't think of anything in that point range that would equal the strength Mephiston brings to the table.

[Zynk Kaladin]

As already mentioned, a hidden catch is that losing Mephi only gains you 125 points, as you still need an HQ. I can't think of anything in that point range that would equal the strength Mephiston brings to the table.

 

Exactly.  You and Calnus hit the crux of the issue.  The only reason to do this is, as K&F mentioned, to spread upgrades throughout the army... but I rarely find 125 points for upgrades particularly useful compared to Mephiston.  Perhaps 60 points for a couple power weapons and maybe meltabombs for my AS and DC, but I find the points for those regardless.

 

Obviously lists not built around Meph can work, and do work very well.  I think K&F wants/asked us to look at the units/options of those lists, not necessarily the effectiveness compared to Meph-lists which are well established.

[BAHERSH]

I would argue that Mephiston should be taken primarily if your list does not feature many CC specialists. If you already have some decked out DC units/ Sang Guard/ Vanguards, I think augmenting them with more units and Sang Priests/ Reclusiarchs/ Librarians might be the better road to take. Sure, Mephiston is a beast, but if you already have units that can wreck MEQ's in hand to hand combat, the points might be better spend elsewhere. Just a thought anyways.

[Dallas Drake]

I used him last game as you know & had a blast with him. I've got Nids in my next game so I'll probably roll on Biomancy where as against most opponents I'd keep his C:BA powers. I think he adds a ton of versatility in this respect & kinda validates his 2 x JPLibby cost.

 

Dallas

[Brother Maikel]

I used him proxied for once just to try him out in a 3K game and he was interesting. Eldar shut down his Psychich abilities somewhat, but he did create a nice mental fear attention magnet.

 

A game under 2000 points makes it difficult for me to field him.

 

See, at less than 2k I find Meph indispensable.  He's a hard counter to so many things (MEQ, GEQ, MC's, any vehicles) while simultaneously being highly mobile, easy to hide, and extremely resilient.  He's a swiss army knife, and while dedicated solutions to each thing he's good at countering are probably more efficient, getting enough dedicated units to cover everything he does is too expensive for small battles.

 

That said, I tend to lean towards low-model-count armies, where the force multiplication of a libby or reclusiarch is less efficient due to a lower number of bodies to boost.  I suppose if you went for more of a weight-of-shots/bodies style army a force-multiplier HQ coupled with other upgrades might outweigh the considerable benefits Meph brings to the table.

[knife&fork]

Exactly.  You and Calnus hit the crux of the issue.  The only reason to do this is, as K&F mentioned, to spread upgrades throughout the army... but I rarely find 125 points for upgrades particularly useful compared to Mephiston.  Perhaps 60 points for a couple power weapons and maybe meltabombs for my AS and DC, but I find the points for those regardless.

 

Perhaps I should have been specific. By upgrades I was talking about just about anything that isn't stock even if you consider them a given. Extra weapon for a speeder, upgrading an attack bike to MM, sponsons for predators, dozers for vindicators... and so on.

It's very noticeable when using some kind of list making software how these things add up.

[SamaNagol]

He does the damage output of a whole unit, but only occupies the space of one marine. And his mobility is beautiful.

 

I just fear Tyranids and certain Greater Daemon/Princes