For Fun...

[himkano]

I finished tuning my shunting list and, while I like it a lot, there are a couple hard (or nearly hard) counters to it that cab't be addressed without changeing the foucs of the list.  Now that the list is done, I was looking at making a different flavor list that covers those gaps.

 

I like to try to make concept lists with armies that no other army can - this one is focused on getting the most out of psybolt ammo upgrade on vehicles while making a competitve force.

 

The base of the list is

 

Stormraven with MM, Assault Cannon, hurrican bolters, psybolt

2x LR Crusaders with with MM, Assault Cannon, hurrican bolters, psybolt

1x Land Raider with MM, HB, and psybolt (maybe not worth it, so those 5 points are up for grabs)

 

This comes out to 1065.  The challenge is how to fill it.  4 pallies in each land raider, all Purifiers, maybe another SR (although probably using henchmen at that point) etc.

 

I personally like GKSS in two of the LR to counter the deep-strike melta (which I think is a big potential vulnerability) and then a squad of purifiers in the other, with Crowe in the SR (or a Librarain and terminators to replace crowe and the purifiers).

 

I am wondering what other people see as strenghts / weaknesses, and how they would counter it with the remaining points, with or without aliies.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Stormraven with MM, Assault Cannon, hurrican bolters, psybolt

2x LR Crusaders with with MM, Assault Cannon, hurrican bolters, psybolt

1x Land Raider with MM, HB, and psybolt (maybe not worth it, so those 5 points are up for grabs)

 

A single Raven is going to get shot down very easily. Remember, the current meta is forcing everyone to deal with triple Heldrake and Scythe spam trash. Even a single Icarus can be enough to take it out. Bring multiples or don't bother. 

 

Landraiders are in a world of hurt this edition. S8 will glance them to death, even with 4 HP plenty of armies can bring S8+ in sufficient quantities for the same points cost and drown you in it. Melta weaponry is still a thing, its just not spammed mindlessly anymore. Expensive tank in an already expensive elite army is a losing proposition. 6th edition is the bloodiest I've ever played, battlefield presence is a huge deal and with a tiny force you are crippled from deployment onwards. 

 

Spending over 1,000 points on 4 models is just terrible. Even PaladinStar brings more threat and presence to the table, and thats our elite infantry style taken to the logical extreme. 

 

People could kill you with deepstrike melta, but they don't have to, so Strikes don't offer any special protection in that regard. As just one example, IG can drop demo-vets on top of you from Vendettas and melta you  down, all without proccing 'Warp Quake' once. 

 

 

Look, in a friendly environment, Raider/Raven spam could be amusing. An Ork player who doesn't read his codex would have trouble (ie he's never seen the Loota or Nob unit entries), etc. You bring that against anyone who half-understands what they are doing, and you can expect to get zoned out and obliterated. Even in a friendly game, you're hopiing no one brought melta, S8 in any meaningful quantity, or even just hordes of dudes to swamp the field and drown your tiny infantry count. 'Folorn' is putting it mildly. 

[Justicar Enethys]

Darius hits on a few very valid points here, however the one point I would question . . no outright deny is;

"Remember, the current meta is forcing everyone to deal with triple Heldrake and Scythe spam trash. Even a single Icarus can be enough to take it out. Bring multiples or don't bother. "

THIS is nonsense. This may apply to the meta in some areas but it isn't reflective of the whole 40K scene. I am from Leeds and play a LOT in Leeds and the north of England in general (And get the odd game down in Northampton and Nottingham as well from time to time), but I have spent the better part of the last 2.5 years living in Sydney and can guarantee that in both Sydney, NSW, Australia and Leeds and the North of England - this 'Triple Drake' spam the interwebz so love to preach about - isn't in existence. I've faced Double Drake lists before (And Drakes Everywhere OMGZ! in Apocalypse - but that doesn't count in this discussion) - but triple Drake lists!? Please. I've no doubt they exist - a lot. However - claiming that this is just the way it is, is nonsense. While in Sydney at the end of 2012 I managed to get a 4 week trip to Japan. I lived there for several years before Australia and was able to meet up with my old gaming group and have a week of 40K madness. There were 3 Chaos players in that group. Maximum amount of Heldrakes any of them fielded? 2. Maybe I just hit on the only 7/8 gaming groups, cities and regions of the world that this is the case - maybe . . . I often wonder what the general wisdom on forums actually has to do with practical experience. "I saw a guy use 3 Drakes once on YouTube - therefore PANIK FOR TEH CHAOS PLAYERS NOW WILL ALL DO IT".

I run ONE Stormraven in my list - and combined with other anti-air threats, it always does well. This, 'bring more than one or bring none' attitude applies to many things 40K. Redundancy is often key. Target saturation is a major factor. Depending on the rest of your list Himkano, it doesn't have to apply here. Though - you are overdoing the Land Raiders somewhat and so probably don't have viable AA in the rest of your list

[Brother Maikel]

Also, to kill a Land Raider via glances from S8 spam you'd need somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 hits, with no cover saves allowed.  What kind of armies are you facing that can put out that much S8 firepower over the course of even 3 turns?

 

I agree that tying up 1k points in 4 models is a gamble, but I would not say that it isn't worth taking.  There are a lot of lists that would struggle mightily with an AV14 wall, especially ones that have shifted towards rate of fire with mid-strength weapons (Autocannon, Plasma) rather than high strength weapons as their means of taking down vehicles.  Plus, ignoring the tactical considerations for the moment, 3 Land raiders and a Stormraven plus bodies sounds like a fun list to play.
 

As for loadout, I'd only go for one unit of strikes if all you're worried about is protection from deep strikers.  With proper deployment, utilising both combat squadding and maximum coherency you should be able to pretty much protect all three land raiders from early game melta strikes.

[Dread]

Well let's see, in last nights game I decided not to bring vehicles but instead a dread knight. There were 3 drakes on the table but that was between to CSM players on one side and my knights with my friends wolves. Now I'm not any kinda of authority on the knights yet but learning real fast.  Unfortunately because of the drakes, I have found myself throwing together lists that only have termies in them to counter them. It is sad that when you know who is bringing CSM to a game that you have to make a list you don't want to use just to have a, well, good time. I love my purgation squads and my jump guys but when uyou know that possibly on turn 2, one of those will enter and there is no where to hide. AH..... but back to the topic, I love taking my storm raven but having to just to counter a certain model, well you get it. Land raiders, I'm about to have a redeemer and I know that I will field it and hope it don't get popped real quick but 6th ed is not vehicle friendly. However we adapt to play this crazy game we love.

[thade]

Also, to kill a Land Raider via glances from S8 spam you'd need somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 hits, with no cover saves allowed.  What kind of armies are you facing that can put out that much S8 firepower over the course of even 3 turns?

Just a small aside here, but this isn't as unrealistic as it may appear. Nob packs with Power Klawz can quickly glance a LR to death, though they're S9 on the charge and often kill it then as opposed to a subsequent swarm of attacks in a following round. Necron Gauss can do it too; of course, their strength is irrelevant. There are units in the game that put out this much punishment in a single round, and not all in melee. At the end of the day, a LR is just a big Rhino. Use it to get your guys where they need to be and protect them as long as it can. Enjoy it and its firepower while it lasts; they tend to be big magnets for anti-tank fire. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

THIS is nonsense. This may apply to the meta in some areas but it isn't reflective of the whole 40K scene. I am from Leeds and play a LOT in Leeds and the north of England in general (And get the odd game down in Northampton and Nottingham as well from time to time), but I have spent the better part of the last 2.5 years living in Sydney and can guarantee that in both Sydney, NSW, Australia and Leeds and the North of England - this 'Triple Drake' spam the interwebz so love to preach about - isn't in existence. I've faced Double Drake lists before (And Drakes Everywhere OMGZ! in Apocalypse - but that doesn't count in this discussion) - but triple Drake lists!? Please. I've no doubt they exist - a lot. However - claiming that this is just the way it is, is nonsense. While in Sydney at the end of 2012 I managed to get a 4 week trip to Japan. I lived there for several years before Australia and was able to meet up with my old gaming group and have a week of 40K madness. There were 3 Chaos players in that group. Maximum amount of Heldrakes any of them fielded? 2. Maybe I just hit on the only 7/8 gaming groups, cities and regions of the world that this is the case - maybe . . . I often wonder what the general wisdom on forums actually has to do with practical experience. "I saw a guy use 3 Drakes once on YouTube - therefore PANIK FOR TEH CHAOS PLAYERS NOW WILL ALL DO IT".

nope.exe

My local CSM players all collectively wet their pants with glee when the dragon came out. The FAQ has only solidified it as an auto-pick in their lists. True, I'm not fighting three of them every game, but its 2 minimum almost all the time. They especially like taking the third against me, as it wipes out my scoring options very quickly (allowing them to focus down the Terminators with other things, like Oblits).

YMMV, but dragons are a big problem for me at the moment. Even if you don't fight triple Heldrake, you still want solid anti-air for other builds (Scythe spam isn't huge locally for me, but a couple people run it and its frustratingly hard to deal with). Telling other players 'oh Heldrakes aren't an issue' is misleading. They're a strong unit in a solid army book, you will see them at some point and have to deal with it.

I run ONE Stormraven in my list - and combined with other anti-air threats, it always does well. This, 'bring more than one or bring none' attitude applies to many things 40K. Redundancy is often key. Target saturation is a major factor. Depending on the rest of your list Himkano, it doesn't have to apply here. Though - you are overdoing the Land Raiders somewhat and so probably don't have viable AA in the rest of your list

It makes target priority too easy though, when you have just the one Flyer. Almost all balanced armies can deal with one Flyer, its when you start bringing multiples they have trouble bringing them down. Nobody is going to shoot AA at ground targets when there is a 200pt+ target, most likely carrying a dangerous melee unit. It's like bringing one Rhino or one Dreadnought.

Also, to kill a Land Raider via glances from S8 spam you'd need somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 hits, with no cover saves allowed. What kind of armies are you facing that can put out that much S8 firepower over the course of even 3 turns?

I said S8+. Obviously, krak missiles are going to bounce a lot of the time, but krak spam kinda died with 5th edition TBH. It's hard to get cover for Landraiders, they're a big tank and smoke is only for one turn. Even a bunch of Rends can be enough to strip HP and kill you.

Well let's see, in last nights game I decided not to bring vehicles but instead a dread knight. There were 3 drakes on the table but that was between to CSM players on one side and my knights with my friends wolves. Now I'm not any kinda of authority on the knights yet but learning real fast. Unfortunately because of the drakes, I have found myself throwing together lists that only have termies in them to counter them. It is sad that when you know who is bringing CSM to a game that you have to make a list you don't want to use just to have a, well, good time. I love my purgation squads and my jump guys but when uyou know that possibly on turn 2, one of those will enter and there is no where to hide. AH..... but back to the topic, I love taking my storm raven but having to just to counter a certain model, well you get it. Land raiders, I'm about to have a redeemer and I know that I will field it and hope it don't get popped real quick but 6th ed is not vehicle friendly. However we adapt to play this crazy game we love.

Yeah, Heldrakes are like that. They're designed to eat Marine lists alive. My answer would be to take Vendettas, Icarus or PsyDreads (preferably all of them if you can). If you can kill off the dragons early, you can still run normal infantry options (Purifiers, Strikes, Henchmen etc) and not feel totally gimped. I'm experimenting with Rhinos at the moment as a counter to Heldrakes. Test games have gone alright, but they still die to Havok autocannon or Oblits pretty quickly, so I often feel like I'm better off pumping points into AA instead.

If 7th edition gets rid of the stupid HP mechanic, I think Land Raiders could come back. They'd still need a price reduction though, Ravens do their job a lot better.

[Justicar Enethys]

Darius - NONE of what you just said negates my point - which was that I disagreed with ONE thing you said. "Remember, the current meta is forcing everyone to deal with triple Heldrake and Scythe spam trash". No - no it isn't at all - and that was my point. So YOU are having a hard time facing multiple Drakes are you? OK. My local gaming group in Sydney comprises 14 players - and we will sometimes get down to GW and play there as well as at our own homes - and every fortnight or so 4/5 of us head down to the FLGS where there is a fairly solid and decent crew. Out of the 14 - 20, plus however many random people, we've all played with and against there - we haven't seen more than one triple Drake list.

Here in Leeds (And often York and Manchester) I know a further 11 regular players who I meet up with often when I am here. There no triple Heldrake lists here. 2 guys I know play 2 and I came across one random guy in Northampton about a week ago who did have 3. Hardly staggering numbers.

When in Japan I knew 4 Chaos players. When I returned in December 2012, there were still 3 playing. How many triple Heldrake lists? None.

That they exist is undeniable. I have played against many Chaos lists but the triple Drake list is not as dominant as YOU may think or personally face. Saying I'm telling people these lists aren't an issue is you twisting my words rather badly considering scrolling up shows otherwise. I have never said that or suggested it. I have merely stated that your piece of advice stating how we're all in this situation is rubbish. I speak on behalf of approximately 30 people (Probably more) in 3 separate countries who would agree with me. When you meet one of these lists you'll be glad to have accounted for AA in your lists - but what I said - quite clearly - is that you are over blowing the situation. OK - we have it established that YOU have issues with them. No-one I know personally does at all. This may very well be 'luck' and just random fate or the tides of the warp swinging randomly. Whatever. Yes - they are out there and they are tough to play against. However - implying - no outright declaring - that the current meta is forcing everyone - is speaking for a LOT of people in a lot of different meta's that you know nothing about - just as I know nothing of yours - except that those there, "wet their pants with glee" and count it as an auto-include. How sad for them

Lastly - when you refer to my flyer - my single flyer - and others who run one and state the following, "a 200pt+ target, most likely carrying a dangerous melee unit" , it makes me wonder who you play against. Every player I know worth his salt and many, many on this forum would agree that transporting things in your Stormraven, while done, is hardly commonplace or wise in the majority of situations. Assuming that is naive and ignorant. We all play differently, but the majority of people I know and have heard of, consider the Stormraven a fine gunship and don't use it as a transport unless absolutely necessary. Perhaps we all just don't know something you do and our results and performances are just flukes. Every time.

[himkano]

Just for follow up, I ran a couple of times against a friend of mine (used Coteaz and GKSS in LRs, and acolytes in SR).  I lost both games (kill points), but he had something like a chimera with a command squad, 3 chimeras with melta vets, 3 executioners with las cannons and melta sponsons (one had the tank commander in it), and 2 units of 3 vendettas.

 

The first game he glanced a LR to death with 6 melta shots (not close range)

 

The second game, I would have won on points, but got tabled on turn 6 (didn't help that I lost 2 units to DS mishap trying to land behind the executioners).  That could be taken as evidence that the list was ineffective, but honestly what grey knight all comers list is really equipped to deal with 9 plasma cannons, 15 vehicle mounted las cannons (12 of which are twin linked), 6 MM on AV 14 platforms, and 12 melta guns and 4 las cannons in chimeras - More bodies, AP2 bodies, I don't think they would have made a difference, in fact I cannot think of any pure GK army that would survive that list.

 

As for the triple drake - thats why I am in landraiders in the first place (I have seen it played once, but I have been hurt by 1-2 drakes enough to respect them).  The idea is to stay in the LR until the HD are dealt with (and the stormraven isn't alone - S7 Rending, TL-Assault cannons don't suck as AA support.)

[Justicar Enethys]

That's fair enough about the Drakes. 1 - 2 are still dangerous. I play them enough and they do become a thorn in your side - or back . . . However - perhaps the points you are investing in keeping your troops safe is meaning you don't have enough points invested in taking out enemy flyers? I love Land Raiders and would use them if I could justify their points in my lists, but so many is naturally going to reduce your spending power on other stuff. The balance between offensive and defensive units here is in question.

My housemate plays a heavy mech IG list and the firepower he brings to the table is dirty. As in, pure, unadulterated, filth! It really is like marching into a solid wall of incoming las and lead However, bare in mind that if the IG player is using so many vehicles - they are often in squadrons - and I don't need to tell you how nasty that can be for them ;)

For example - between my Stormraven, ADL w. Quad Gun and Psyflemen as well as pot shots from TL Psycannons throughout my list - squadrons of Vendettas like that would be history pretty quickly. Destroy one and your results move on to the next in squadron - ouch . . . Granted, you may have to endure a turn of firing first and that many lascannons will make you wish you weren't born a wargamer, but ADL's go some way to mitigate this with Interceptor, as would Coteaz on the board. His IBEY and a Quad Gun would dearly love to meet that many Vendettas coming on from reserve (Ranges withstanding of course ;) )

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius - NONE of what you just said negates my point - which was that I disagreed with ONE thing you said. "Remember, the current meta is forcing everyone to deal with triple Heldrake and Scythe spam trash". No - no it isn't at all - and that was my point. So YOU are having a hard time facing multiple Drakes are you? OK. My local gaming group in Sydney comprises 14 players - and we will sometimes get down to GW and play there as well as at our own homes - and every fortnight or so 4/5 of us head down to the FLGS where there is a fairly solid and decent crew. Out of the 14 - 20, plus however many random people, we've all played with and against there - we haven't seen more than one triple Drake list.

Here in Leeds (And often York and Manchester) I know a further 11 regular players who I meet up with often when I am here. There no triple Heldrake lists here. 2 guys I know play 2 and I came across one random guy in Northampton about a week ago who did have 3. Hardly staggering numbers.

When in Japan I knew 4 Chaos players. When I returned in December 2012, there were still 3 playing. How many triple Heldrake lists? None.

That they exist is undoubted. I know many and have played against many Chaos lists but the triple Drake list is not as dominant as YOU may think or personally face. Saying I'm telling people these lists aren't an issue is you twisting words. I have never said that. I have merely stated that your piece of advice stating how we're all in this situation is rubbish. I speak on behalf of approximately 30 people in 3 separate countries who would agree with me. When you meet one of these lists you'll be glad to have accounted for AA in your lists - but what I said - quite clearly - is that you are over blowing the situation. OK - we have it established that YOU have issues with them. No-one I know personally does at all. This may very well be 'luck' and just random fate or the tides of the warp swinging randomly. Whatever. Yes - they are out there and they are tough to play against. However - implying that the current meta is forcing everyone - is speaking for a LOT of people in a lot of different meta's that you know nothing about - just as I know nothing of yours - except that those there, "wet their pants with glee" and count is as an auto-include. How sad for them

It's nice you don't face multiple Heldrakes on a regular basis. I do however, and so I plan for it. If you plan to face 3 (the logical maximum, most of my local games don't break 2k and most people don't use double Force Org), then if they only bring 1-2, you're likely to shut it down. If you don't plan for 3, and they bring 3 or even 2, you could be in trouble. Perhaps I was being a little absolutist by saying you MUST plan for 3. I thinks its fair to say you need to plan for 3+ Flyer lists though, CSM aren't the only ones who do it.

It's as valid a list to plan for as Scythe spam, or infantry-heavy Orks, or PaladinStar, or Air Cav IG etc.

Lastly - when you refer to my flyer - my single flyer - and others who run one and state the following, "a 200pt+ target, most likely carrying a dangerous melee unit" , it makes me wonder who you play against. Every player I know worth his salt and many, many on this forum would agree that transporting things in your Stormraven, while done, is hardly commonplace or wise in the majority of situations.

Then why are you taking a Raven? It's not worth its points just as a gunship. If you are taking it, you should be loading in cargo, thats why it has an Assault Ramp, Terminator transport capacity etc. I'd say you'd be in the minority in my local playerbase if you were not loading something into it. Even cheap melee Henchmen are a good use for it.

The second game, I would have won on points, but got tabled on turn 6 (didn't help that I lost 2 units to DS mishap trying to land behind the executioners). That could be taken as evidence that the list was ineffective, but honestly what grey knight all comers list is really equipped to deal with 9 plasma cannons, 15 vehicle mounted las cannons (12 of which are twin linked), 6 MM on AV 14 platforms, and 12 melta guns and 4 las cannons in chimeras - More bodies, AP2 bodies, I don't think they would have made a difference, in fact I cannot think of any pure GK army that would survive that list.

It's rough, no question. IG punish elite armies like ours. I think you can still win, you might need to change up your list a bit though.

As for the triple drake - thats why I am in landraiders in the first place (I have seen it played once, but I have been hurt by 1-2 drakes enough to respect them). The idea is to stay in the LR until the HD are dealt with (and the stormraven isn't alone - S7 Rending, TL-Assault cannons don't suck as AA support.)

Hitting on 6's does though. Getting into LR's as a counter to Heldrakes isn't a wise idea, IMO. You're spending way more than the CSM player is, and he can still open up your LR's with other units, then cremate the cargo with the dragons. As I said, experiment with Rhinos, I'm trying it out currently with mixed results.

[Justicar Enethys]

Someone who says that a Stormraven isn't worth it if they aren't loading in cargo is going to find a lot of disagreement both on these boards, and in many real life situations. It CAN carry troops but that doesn't mean you SHOULD. The option is nice - and never has to be ruled out when making a list - but to outright say it isn't worth it suggests a very limited experience with it and against it. I'm not saying you aren't experienced - but as with everything on these boards - local meta counts. In your area - I may very well be alone or in a minority. That's established and all good. You would most certainly be laughed out of our gaming group with that attitude. I'm not intending to be rude. Local meta is different for us all - and that's great - variety is the spice of life But sweeping statements that suggest one way to play and every other way is folly - is a little ignorant I'm afraid. I'm not saying you're wrong - but you do seem to be suggesting that of me.

I could list all the things my Stormraven - all on its own - has achieved - but there'd be no point. You wouldn't believe it and it would seem like me fabricating things to sound good here. There's no point and it's why I don't post my game results in my signature. It doesn't impress anyone. However - my Stormraven has achieved wonders as a gunship. It provides accurate and devastating firepower that I can apply very specifically. If enemy flyers are already on the board - I have been known to take out 2 in one turn with ease. This is a story many here share an experience in. It has decimated ground troops and is wonderful for taking out high value targets. For me - that is Manticores especially in my area and they run rampant if not kept in sharp check. An accurate, twin linked, Multi-Melta has proves very useful in this regard. I run mine with TL MM, TL AssCan and if points permit - Hurricane Bolters. I have taken out an entire squadron of three Vendettas with this configuration in one turn. Granted - that was some very lucky rolls, but it can be done. On the other hand - I've lost it without much gain before as well. The dice gods are fickle It has its uses. Don't sweep its potential aside and assume it to only work in one way because local meta for you suggests that What works for you is great. Plan lists to suit you - but telling the interwebz it SHOULD carry troops isn't accurate or wise.

It is a deterrent of sorts - though granted more would be better in that regard. It opens possibilities. And among those possibilities is a transport role. Doesn't suit me - but I wouldn't say someone was wrong or challenge them on their application of it. Personally I think dropping a Stormraven to Hover mode to let troops out is a bad idea and WILL lose you your investment. Each to their own. I don't know what suits everyone individually and am not offering advice as such - merely stating personal experience so that others may take justification in their own choices, learn something, or feel better about their own lists which are so much better applied lol

I mean no disrespect if anything comes across that way. I am trying to allow for others views and find common ground. Sweeping statements saying something SHOULD be used a certain way or that there is only one way to play something frustrate me. In the Stormravens case there are a wide number of uses, each requiring a different play style. Mine frequently makes it points back and then some, but serves so many other uses than pure point for point aggression. You can believe that or not, it won't affect it's continued, successful use in my lists - and that use won't be as a transport any time soon.

Something I will happily agree on though is Vendetta spam. I don't see that many Heldrakes (Thankfully! ) - but Vendettas plague my gaming group. One friend owns 9 but that's just obsession and for Apocalypse games. He frequently puts three on though. Massed flyers are here and do need accounting for. Necrons and IG are the main culprits wherever I play. However, I run few vehicles in my games and factoring in positioning and movement, those massed Vendetta Lascannons never quite pay off as much as he'd like them to( A lack of turrets and fixed firing positions is a minor drawback for them). The vets dropping from them give me more of a headache - but are easy enough to take care of once my shooting phase comes around

[Brother Maikel]

Also, to kill a Land Raider via glances from S8 spam you'd need somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 hits, with no cover saves allowed. What kind of armies are you facing that can put out that much S8 firepower over the course of even 3 turns?

Just a small aside here, but this isn't as unrealistic as it may appear. Nob packs with Power Klawz can quickly glance a LR to death, though they're S9 on the charge and often kill it then as opposed to a subsequent swarm of attacks in a following round. Necron Gauss can do it too; of course, their strength is irrelevant. There are units in the game that put out this much punishment in a single round, and not all in melee. At the end of the day, a LR is just a big Rhino. Use it to get your guys where they need to be and protect them as long as it can. Enjoy it and its firepower while it lasts; they tend to be big magnets for anti-tank fire.

As I understood it the implication was that the S8(+) hits were coming from ranged weaponry. If the nobs are near enough to the land raider that they can charge, chances are the land raider has already done its job of delivering its (likely melee-oriented) payload. Plus, if nobz are an issue you don't have to use the land raiders as transports: you can always screen them with infantry elements on the approach.

Gauss weapons are more of a concern, but most of the Necron lists I've come up against run pretty small warrior/immortal squads and need to be in doubletap range (read: charge range for you) to generate a sufficient number of hits to matter. Plus, most of the Necron players I've encountered tend to favor tesla over gauss for the help with overwatch/snap shots.

Also, to kill a Land Raider via glances from S8 spam you'd need somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 hits, with no cover saves allowed. What kind of armies are you facing that can put out that much S8 firepower over the course of even 3 turns?

I said S8+. Obviously, krak missiles are going to bounce a lot of the time, but krak spam kinda died with 5th edition TBH. It's hard to get cover for Landraiders, they're a big tank and smoke is only for one turn. Even a bunch of Rends can be enough to strip HP and kill you.

Even including S9+, I find it difficult to believe that you're facing enough heavy weapons to strip 12 AV14 hull points in a turn. Over the course of a game vs a heavy weapons list you'll almost certainly lose a raider, probably two, but probably not before the raiders can make it into their lines. With Vanguard or Dawn of War you should be able to get a T2 charge most games, T3 at the latest (18-36" Flat out + 6" move + 6" disembark + 2d6" charge), and H&A only adds 12" of depth to their deployment zone (making T3 more likely).

As for cover, yes the LR is a big model, but 25% obscured is not that hard to get, given a reasonable amount of terrain. If you're really worried, bring an Aegis line (or bastion) and set it up midfield, guaranteeing you can get that cover for the first turn. On a particularly bare table there's always the rotating land raider formation, where you use one raider to provide cover for the other two, pop smoke for it, then trade off each turn. That gets you 3 turns of cover, then allows you to put the least damaged raider up front each turn to take the brunt of the attacks.

On the other hand, why not go all-out mech? A psyback is 50 pts? Bring a couple, and against S7 spam armies they can hide behind the AV14 wall and snipe special models, while against 'cron gauss spam or S8+ spam armies they can act as cheap smoke-launching shields to grant cover saves. Late game any that survive can be used to ferry troops to objectives or act as guided missiles via tank shock/ramming.

Coteaz - 100

GKSS (10), 2x Psycannon, Rhino - 260

Henchmen - 4x Bolter Acolytes, Psyback - 70

Henchmen - 4x Bolter Acolytes, Psyback - 70

Henchmen - 7x DCA, 4x Crusader - 165

Purifiers (10) - 240

That's 905, leaving 30 points to play with (plus 5 if you drop psybolts from the vanilla LR). You could swap the puries and/or DCA for pallies or GKT, or beef up the Bolter Acolyte squads for a bit more resilience. Plus it sounds kinda fun to play... if only I had 3 raiders.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Someone who says that a Stormraven isn't worth it if they aren't loading in cargo is going to find a lot of disagreement both on these boards, and in many real life situations. It CAN carry troops but that doesn't mean you SHOULD. The option is nice - and never has to be ruled out when making a list - but to outright say it isn't worth it suggests a very limited experience with it and against it. I'm not saying you aren't experienced - but as with everything on these boards - local meta counts. In your area - I may very well be alone or in a minority. That's established and all good. You would most certainly be laughed out of our gaming group with that attitude. I'm not intending to be rude. Local meta is different for us all - and that's great - variety is the spice of life But sweeping statements that suggest one way to play and every other way is folly - is a little ignorant I'm afraid. I'm not saying you're wrong - but you do seem to be suggesting that of me.

Lol, if I'm making sweeping statements then so are you. I didn't say you'd be laughed out my gaming group, you'd simply be in a minority of players who take it as a gunship over a transport role. You may not intend to be rude, but you are. I think we'll simply agree to disagree on the purpose of taking a Raven.

What I think we can probably agree on is that its an expensive investment either way (200pts+ is a lot, even for Knights), and you should probably take multiples if you can to minimise the impact that the loss of one Raven would make on your list. Hence my preference for making use of its transport capacity.

Something I will happily agree on though is Vendetta spam. I don't see that many Heldrakes (Thankfully! ) - but Vendettas plague my gaming group. One friend owns 9 but that's just obsession and for Apocalypse games. He frequently puts three on though. Massed flyers are here and do need accounting for. Necrons and IG are the main culprits wherever I play. However, I run few vehicles in my games and factoring in positioning and movement, those massed Vendetta Lascannons never quite pay off as much as he'd like them to( A lack of turrets and fixed firing positions is a minor drawback for them). The vets dropping from them give me more of a headache - but are easy enough to take care of once my shooting phase comes around

Be glad, dragons are an absolute pain. As you mention, at least Vendettas can only get in 1-2 good bombing runs (assuming they don't Hover of course), and you can limit angles for their lascannons. For some arcane reason GW decided turret Torrent weapons mounted on a Flyer with AP3 were a good idea, so they FAQ'd dragons to be even better.

Demo-Vets main function is hitting you with a powerful alpha-strike, so the IG player kinda expects you to mow them down next turn. I still laugh when I see a man leap out of a plane to drop a bomb on people...

Gauss weapons are more of a concern, but most of the Necron lists I've come up against run pretty small warrior/immortal squads and need to be in doubletap range (read: charge range for you) to generate a sufficient number of hits to matter. Plus, most of the Necron players I've encountered tend to favor tesla over gauss for the help with overwatch/snap shots.

Meh, Necrons have inbuilt gauss everywhere. I've had my vehicles die to Ghost Arks spamming their side batteries into things. Necrons are also pretty tanky for xenos, they can sorta ignore most vehicles and focus on killing your scoring options off (whilst hiding their own as much as possible, either in Scythes or Ghost Arks).

Even including S9+, I find it difficult to believe that you're facing enough heavy weapons to strip 12 AV14 hull points in a turn. Over the course of a game vs a heavy weapons list you'll almost certainly lose a raider, probably two, but probably not before the raiders can make it into their lines. With Vanguard or Dawn of War you should be able to get a T2 charge most games, T3 at the latest (18-36" Flat out + 6" move + 6" disembark + 2d6" charge), and H&A only adds 12" of depth to their deployment zone (making T3 more likely).

I face plenty of melta still, so there is that. i just find Land Raiders chew up way too many points. Most of my games are 1,500, 1,750 or 2k. Even at 2k, I find other stuff a better investment.

Coteaz - 100

GKSS (10), 2x Psycannon, Rhino - 260

Henchmen - 4x Bolter Acolytes, Psyback - 70

Henchmen - 4x Bolter Acolytes, Psyback - 70

Henchmen - 7x DCA, 4x Crusader - 165

Purifiers (10) - 240

Not bad. Try it out, you at least don't have expensive stuff like Paladins sucking up all the points.

[Justicar Enethys]

Someone who says that a Stormraven isn't worth it if they aren't loading in cargo is going to find a lot of disagreement both on these boards, and in many real life situations. It CAN carry troops but that doesn't mean you SHOULD. The option is nice - and never has to be ruled out when making a list - but to outright say it isn't worth it suggests a very limited experience with it and against it. I'm not saying you aren't experienced - but as with everything on these boards - local meta counts. In your area - I may very well be alone or in a minority. That's established and all good. You would most certainly be laughed out of our gaming group with that attitude. I'm not intending to be rude. Local meta is different for us all - and that's great - variety is the spice of life But sweeping statements that suggest one way to play and every other way is folly - is a little ignorant I'm afraid. I'm not saying you're wrong - but you do seem to be suggesting that of me.

Lol, if I'm making sweeping statements then so are you. I didn't say you'd be laughed out my gaming group, you'd simply be in a minority of players who take it as a gunship over a transport role. You may not intend to be rude, but you are. I think we'll simply agree to disagree on the purpose of taking a Raven.

What I think we can probably agree on is that its an expensive investment either way (200pts+ is a lot, even for Knights), and you should probably take multiples if you can to minimise the impact that the loss of one Raven would make on your list. Hence my preference for making use of its transport capacity.

I'm not entirely sure what you find rude in my text - or a sweeping statement. If you read it again you will find my posts are filled with concession, admissions that I may be wrong, acceptance that different areas have different meta's and as such I make several claims that I could be wrong/probably am, and that I speak solely for myself and my gaming group (Mostly friends of a couple of years, some over a decade so I know them pretty well). I state how my meta is and would regard your opinions and outright admit that I may be alone or in a minority in that gaming group. Nothing about my posts say the way anyone SHOULD play them or that there is a RIGHT way to play them. I specifically bring up MY personal experience to back up MY claims. I also advise you at one point to believe or not - as it won't affect the way I continue to play. As a cherry on top I add that variety is the spice of life and that if things are played differently in different areas - great - as it keeps this hobby from getting stale. The only 'sweeping' sentiment I make is that everyone should play their own way and not dictate to others what is right and wrong and how people SHOULD play their models.

If you have taken offence to any of the above sentiment - then yes, we probably should leave it there and agree to disagree as clearly no further good/debate can come from this subject between us. My initial objection was to you speaking on behalf of all of us and stating that we are all dealing with triple Heldrake lists when it is quite clearly not the case. Since then we established that is NOT the case - but is for you. Not everyone - but everyone as you see it. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Apologies for any offence caused. Speaking plainly has it's risks when conversing on a forum. I thought my text was inundated with disclaimers to the contrary and concessionary tone, but hey ho - can't win 'em all ;)

[Aethernitas]

Soooo... I don't want in on the whole Heldrake/Vendetta spam discussion but there is something I just can't leave uncommented:

 

In my humble opinion there is no way in hell a Stormraven should ever fly empty. Even if you face a goddamn armada of Vendettas and or a battalion of Hydras and you are positive that your flyer won't even survive the end of your movement phase you can still casually fly in from reserves and use 'skies of fury' to drop the embarked units anywhere on your flightpath. Sure... if you can't place even one of the models due to impassable terrain you are pretty much ****ed but you have to be quite incapable or unbelieveably unlucky to make that happen.

 

So worst case scenario (ignoring the 'Terrible Accident' Mishap result) is that your embarked units end up with a free ride to anywhere within 36" from your table-edge, loosing one turn of shooting and not beeing able to charge on the turn they come in.

 

With the new  'death from the skies' -rules our gunships can even get a brand new locator beacon which allows units that disembark using 'skies of fury' to circumvent scattering altogether as long as it's not in the turn the SR came in from reserves.

[Justicar Enethys]

In all honesty I'm kinda 50/50 on it at the moment. Transporting in them has it's place. I was much more fond of it when you could whack a load of Interceptors in it and have them jump out accurately. The 2 units went together nicely in a few lists I used.

While I think a single Raven can work out very well, I do agree with Darius that more is better if you can afford it. In my lists - that rarely happens. However, in the OP's list I think Land Raiders have been over-used - so dropping one of them would open up some nice points to fit another Raven in comfortably and have a few points for 'squad shinies' on top of that

Edit: A million typos in such a short post :O

[Aethernitas]

I failed to mention that it is indeed a very capable gunship on it's own and even if it has a hefty pricetag I think that is justified as it is a flying AV12 all around tank that can shoot 2 targets a turn with all twin-linked weaponry of my choosing.

I simply enjoy the sheer terror of my opponents when they realize that they have exactly one turn to deal with my Stormraven(s) or at least one of his units (preferrably expensive HQs ) will be torn apart by my embarking Paladins/Henchman/PAGK/whatever. With an IC, combat squads and a Dread it's possible to charge a maximum of 4 different units when embarking from the SR tough I mostly opt for Paladins + cc Dread to charge two units

As I mentioned in my previous post the risk is very calculabe and if I decide it's too high I can always go for the skies of fury option and at least save them a lot of footslogging

[Brother Maikel]

I face plenty of melta still, so there is that.

As do I. But if they're in melta range (and especially half-melta range) then I'm probably in charge range, so the LR did its job.

i just find Land Raiders chew up way too many points. Most of my games are 1,500, 1,750 or 2k. Even at 2k, I find other stuff a better investment.

Oh, I wouldn't bring anything like this to a really competitive event. LR's are definitely not the most efficient army, and against a hard counter they're effectively wasted points. But the title of the topic is "For Fun", and in a less-than-cutthroat environment I think a LR/SR list could do reasonably well, and be a blast to play.

Coteaz - 100

GKSS (10), 2x Psycannon, Rhino - 260

Henchmen - 4x Bolter Acolytes, Psyback - 70

Henchmen - 4x Bolter Acolytes, Psyback - 70

Henchmen - 7x DCA, 4x Crusader - 165

Purifiers (10) - 240

Not bad. Try it out, you at least don't have expensive stuff like Paladins sucking up all the points.

I'd love to, except I think the only thing I own from that list are Coteaz, a Raven, 2 Razors and the DCA/Crusaders All my GK are TDA.

[Sigvard]

It's nice you don't face multiple Heldrakes on a regular basis. I do however, and so I plan for it. If you plan to face 3 (the logical maximum, most of my local games don't break 2k and most people don't use double Force Org), then if they only bring 1-2, you're likely to shut it down. If you don't plan for 3, and they bring 3 or even 2, you could be in trouble. Perhaps I was being a little absolutist by saying you MUST plan for 3. I thinks its fair to say you need to plan for 3+ Flyer lists though, CSM aren't the only ones who do it.

It's as valid a list to plan for as Scythe spam, or infantry-heavy Orks, or PaladinStar, or Air Cav IG etc. 

 

Okay so I have not been involved in the game of Warhammer 40,000 for very long and have only ever known the game in 6th edition which some people tell me is a good thing. In the time that I have played I have never encountered any more than 1 Heldrake in a list, mainly because the people in my gaming group are no d***h****.

 

The fact that you regularly play a triple Heldrake list to me says that you need to find a new group.

Any group of people that influences the list you run drastically to combat a particular unit is the wrong type of group. I would only expect to find such a ridiculous creation either on the message boards or at tournaments where the worst parts of the Warhammer community surface from their cubby holes.

 

 

Lastly - when you refer to my flyer - my single flyer - and others who run one and state the following, "a 200pt+ target, most likely carrying a dangerous melee unit" , it makes me wonder who you play against. Every player I know worth his salt and many, many on this forum would agree that transporting things in your Stormraven, while done, is hardly commonplace or wise in the majority of situations.

Then why are you taking a Raven? It's not worth its points just as a gunship. If you are taking it, you should be loading in cargo, thats why it has an Assault Ramp, Terminator transport capacity etc. I'd say you'd be in the minority in my local playerbase if you were not loading something into it. Even cheap melee Henchmen are a good use for it. 

 

I have to admit that I tend to run a single Stormraven in the lists I run simply because it is one the most reliable ways for me to get my Terminators into combat reliably and also because you can kit it out to take things like the Heldrake out of the sky. They tend not find Multi Melta/Lascannons in the rear that fun. But I have not once in all of my games had it shot out of the sky. Opportunities have been had to do it but alot of the time, the armour saves me or people just ignore it in the most part.

 

Also to the Original poster in this thread.

 

That is a massive amound of points tied up in Land Raiders, they are amazingly cool carry with them many benefits but if you are concerned about Heldrakes melting your troops then have Terminators in abundance. Considering they are troops, and thus are scoring units. In large numbers the Psycannons you can give me them tend to chew a lot of things up especially combined with relentless. They are also monsters in combat generally so I would consider running them in abundance rather than the Land Raiders.

 

But that is just my two cents.

[Justicar Enethys]

Sigvard - specifically on the point of why I take a Stormraven in my lists - as that is the only part relating to my comments above - I suggest you read my responses already on this topic. They are above and detailed. Whether you agree with how I run one or not - my reasons and experiences have already been noted.

If it was all a case of TLDR, briefly - I run one as a gunship only in the majority of games when I use it as the name suggests. A gunship. I find it abundantly useful in shooting down other flyers and once that primary role is not an issue, I also find it abundantly useful with ground targets. It provides a distraction for my opponent and a 'must kill' target. Against my regular opponents - they will shoot it down a fair amount of the time. It rarely survives when it is being used to transport anything as hover mode is just asking for trouble. It has an assault ramp, sure. But using it is very risky for me. I don't use cheap henchmen units in my army any more as I don't like them nowadays and I have no issues whatsoever having my Terminators do their job - they are not needing it most of the time. I used to run Interceptors in one for precise deep striking and gun runs, but the FAQ'd rules for the SR cut that short. But - to each their own

It will be different for everyone depending on your regularly faced opponents and local meta, but I get my points/use out if far more as a gunship. I have used it - and still do on rare occasions - as a transport, but only when the terrain/opponent open up opportunities to do it safely enough for me to justify.

I'm not a huge tournament player myself. I've entered the odd one here and there, but I think referring to the people that do go as, "The worst parts of the Warhammer Community", is unfair I know many great people who just enjoy that environment more Granted - at tournament you're more likely to find that element, but I've met a few randoms in GW stores, looking for pic up games, who have struck me as far worse

[Sigvard]

In truth I wrote that last post moderately out of it at work. So please forgive anything that may have come across a bit blunt or that seemingly ignores anything previously stated.

 

What I was trying to convey when referring to the Storm Raven is that it fulfils dual roles for me and I find it to function as a transport and also being my frequent anti-air hero in most of my games. I was simply expressing my own opinion, to be honest not sure why I quoted you. Sleep deprivation is likely.

 

In terms of my comments about tournament players, my experience has been clearly very different to your own. The last tournament I went to was with my other half and we found 4 out 5 teams we played against to be overly aggressive and incredibly rude, especially in the case of my other half, which nearly drove her from playing Warhammer altogether, the people at the tournament turned what was meant to be fun and enjoyable into a grim experience. Where as all of my gaming group include players I have met at my local GW and have become very close friends. That is not to say I have not found these people in a local setting but I find the sampling to be much more diluted.

 

Again please excuse my sleep deprived ramblings.

[Justicar Enethys]

Oh . . . mate - no offence taken :)

Considering what previous tournament experience has been like for you, I'm not surprised you feel the way you do about them! I guess I'm fortunate in that the handful of bigger tournaments and variety of smaller, local events I've attended over the years have at least been civil and normally a great deal of fun. It's sad to hear it's not like that for everyone

Re: the Stormraven as a transport - I think the reason it doesn't get too much use in that role in my forces is due to me not having a good unit to put in it. I don't run cheap Henchmen at all and run largely Terminator based lists. As such, every weapon I have is on an expensive model and needs to be earning it's keep from Turn 1. I used to be happy accurately leaping my Interceptors out of it at high speed but those days are gone. It's proven itself in my games (40K & Apocalypse) as outstanding AA so I guess that compounds my views on it.