Stormraven & Vanguard

[Koremu]

Stormraven at top speed, C:SM Vanguard exiting using Jump Packs.

 

Skies of... says the exiting unit is treated as Deep Striking

Heroic Intervention says the unit may Assault when Deep Striking

Skies of... says you can't assault when exiting in this manner (yet this seems to be in place to nullify Assault Vehicle, as you can't normally assault when Deep Striking anyway).

 

Note that C:SM Vanguard Heroic Intervention does not specify that HI must be used from reserve.

 

Can the Vanguard assault - yay or nay?

[Raeven]

Yes. I would say you can. Codex > BRB

[DarkGuard]

But then you have two Codex rules conflicting with each other. Skies of Blood says you can't assault. And then HI says you can if you Deep Strike. So which is it? Given that the Deep Strike rules are only used here in a placeholder fashion, and the main rule being used says you cannot assault, I'd be inclined to say that VVs still can't assault.

[Koremu]

But we're not using Skies of Blood. We're using Skies of... Fury, is it? And Death from the Skies isn't a codex.

 

C:SM, not C:BA, here

 

(and yes, I am willing to acknowledge this is probably an oversight that's due to C:SM Vanguard not being written with the Stormraven in mind)

[Squirrelloid]

Check the errata/FAQ, VVs can't assault after using Skies of Blood.

 

Edit: It's in the BA errata/FAQ at least.  I don't know what the state of C:SM with respect to these units is, if you're using some other codex.  (Can people other than BA use Stormravens?)

[Disruptor_fe404]

C:SM and S:BT can use Stormravens. As per Death From the Skies.

[Grey Mage]

Seeing as there is almost no difference between C:BA and C:SM Vanguard, Id would go by the BA FAQs very straightforward lead on this one and say no.

[Raeven]

I misunderstood and forgot that Skies of Fury specifically disallowed charging after it's use. 

 

So, even though you are deepstriking in, since it is a SoF deepstrike you cannot charge.

[Gentlemanloser]

Can't check the SM FAQ (GW is blocked at work), but it depends on that.

 

If Skies of Fury is a amended/errata Codex rule, then you're at a Codex to Codex rule conflict and you need to dice off.

 

If Skies of Fury is a BRB/Death from the Skies rule, then you have a Codex > BRB rule conflict and the SM Vanguard Vets *can* Assault after disembarking from a Storm Raven when using the Skies of Fury rule to do so.

 

Is this intended?  The BA FAQ would say no.  But until it's FAQed for the SM Vanguard, the BA FAQ doesn't apply.

 

But who really knows what GW ever intend.  They differ their answers seeming on the phase of the Moon.  And different Codex FAQ can contradict each other.  In some instance the same FAQ contradicts itself.

[Koremu]

The Stormraven is not mentioned at all in the C:SM FAQ. The use of the Stormraven in C:SM armies comes exclusively from Death from the Skies, which is not a codex. It's also not the BRB. I don't know where supplements lie in the Codex > BRB dynamic.

[Dam13n]

BA FAQ:

 

Q: Can a unit of Vanguard Veterans use its Heroic Intervention
special rule when deploying by Deep Strike from a Stormraven
Gunship (using its Skies of Blood special rule) (p27 and 38)
A: No.

 

Pretty much sums it up.

[The Emperor's Champion]

The Stormraven is not mentioned at all in the C:SM FAQ. The use of the Stormraven in C:SM armies comes exclusively from Death from the Skies, which is not a codex. It's also not the BRB. I don't know where supplements lie in the Codex > BRB dynamic.

Relevant entries are essentially part of the Codex that can use them.

Death From The Skies is a compilation of Codex expansions.

 

 

And yea, it's pretty clear that Skies Of Blood and Skies Of Fury are meant to interact the same way with their respective Vanguard, so no, Vanguard can't Heroic Intervention....unfortunately, since that might make them useful...

[Gentlemanloser]

A suppliment is not part of a Codex.

 

Unless you really want to go down the route that the GK Stromraven now comes with Locator Beacons.

 

There is no accomodation for suppliments or WD articles in the whole Codex > BRB Advanced > BRB Basic structure we've been given.

 

There's even no accomodation as to where FAQs lay in this.  For example which too precedence when the BRB FAQ contradicted the Tau Codex Markerlight rule.

 

As for the BA FAQ, that doesn't, and can't, apply to the Space Marine Codex.  Sure, it lends weight to intention, but as I've already said above;

 

 

But who really knows what GW ever intend.  They differ their answers
seeming on the phase of the Moon.  And different Codex FAQ can
contradict each other.  In some instance the same FAQ contradicts
itself.

 

Edit: If DftS is actually part of my Codex, then I can no longer play my Grey Knights.  As I don't own one of the 10 printed copies of this Codex revision, and never will.

[Dam13n]

Upon re-reading the codex entries:

 

Vanguard Veterans - Heroic Intervention:

"If a jump pack equipped Vanguard Veteran squad arrives from deep strike, the player can elect for the squad to perform a Heroic Intervention."

 

Stormraven Gunship - Skies of...:

"Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point."

 

When a unit of Vanguard Veterans deploys via "Skies of..." they aren't arriving from deep strike.  They are deploying by deep strike.  As they aren't arriving (which would require them to be in deep strike reserve), they cannot perform a Heroic Intervention.  Literal reading of RAW.

 

The BA FAQ supports this (even if it has no direct bearing on Codex:SM, it doesn't really matter as IMO the RAW is clear anyway).

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the difference between 'arrive' and 'deploy'?

 

You choose not to deploy, but keep them in reserve, and they arrive later (pg124).

 

IC and units 'arrive' together.  This is deployment from reserves.  As do units and transports.

 

There's even a subsection titled 'Arriving from reserves'.  Which is deployment.

[Dam13n]

A unit arrives from reserves, it doesn't arrive from a transport when disembarking.

 

Deploying is the act of placing a unit on the table.

 

Disembarking is a form of deployment in that you are taking a unit that isn't directly on the table (because they are in a transport) and placing them on the table, subject to the disembark procedure.

 

Arriving from reserves is also a form of deployment, which takes a unit from the "reserves pool" and places them on the table subject to either deep strike, outflanking, coming on from the player's deployment edge or via a unit specific SR (wolf scouts, ymgarls etc.)

 

A unit that arrives is deployed. A unit that is deployed isn't necessarily arriving.

 

The unit disembarking via "skies of..." is deployed. That doesn't mean it is arriving. Heroic Intervention requires a unit to arrive. The only way that can happen is to come out of reserves.

 

Now if "skies of..." stated that the unit disembarking is arriving via deep strike then that would be different, but it doesn't, so they aren't.

[Gentlemanloser]

What happens when you have a Saud of Vanguard in a Stormraven, that arrive from Reserves on Turn 2, and the Vanguard use HI that turn, the turn thay have arrived from Reserves on, when the disembark the SR?

 

They have arrived from reserves that turn, via deep strike.  As they don't disembark the Stormraven, they deploy by Deep Strike.

[Dam13n]

They are still not "arriving via deep strike" they are arriving on board the Stormraven then deploying (disembarking) via deep strike.

 

The wording is quite clear when applied literally.

 

The simple fact is, we already know what the FAQ will/should say thanks to the BA FAQ. The RAW supports that answer completely. Trying to exploit a loophole only works if there is a loophole to exploit.

 

Arriving via deep strike can only happen from reserves or under rare circumstances that use that wording (gate of infinity IIRC states the unit is removed then arrives via deep strike, so would count).

 

It's a permissive ruleset after all. Nowhere does it state that arriving and deploying are one and the same, so they're not. Unless "skies of..." is errata-ed to state that the unit "arrives via deep strike" or FAQed to state you can use Heroic Intervention when disembarking in that way, then you can't use Heroic Intervention out of a Stormraven.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Would this be the right place to also ask about locator beacons on Stormravens benefiting units disembarking via "Skies of..."?

 

I guess it comes down to whether locator beacons say "arrives via deep strike" or not.

 

At work, so no Codex on me.

[Squirrelloid]

In my opinion, model's deploying via skies of blood/fury can use a locator beacon that was on the table at the start of the turn.  (If the stormraven just arrived from reserves, no dice!)

 

Of course, I disagree with Damien, since skies of blood says 'as if they were deepstriking', the only reason VVs can't charge is because of the FAQ/errata, and that probably has some bearing on your interpretation of these rules.  (But I would count the BA FAQ as applying to the SM stormraven because they're using the same rules with different names, and they should work the same!)

 

Then again, I also have no faith in GW's ability to issue consistent rulings.  Cross your fingers and hope for a FAQ to clarify.

[The Emperor's Champion]

You're kidding yourself if you think the BA FAQ doesn't mean the same thing for the SM version that is basically exactly the same.
This isn't a matter of unique army rules between Codices, it's a matter of clarifying game mechanic order of operations that should follow the exact same logic no matter what book they're in.

"Deploying" is a rules term while "arrive" is flavor text.
Deploy is used very specifically, arrival is just a descriptive word used with no real precision.
I guess you can try and use it that way, but I'm almost positive it won't hold up.

[Dam13n]

Squirrel - so you disagree with me, yet come to the same conclusion - that Vanguard cannot assault after using "Skies of..."

 

You also appear to have missed my point entirely.  The "deepstrike" part isn't the key word in either rule.  Heroic intervention requires you to arrive via deep strike.  Which means that you are arriving (from reserves) using the deep strike special rule.

 

The only other thing that follows that wording to my knowledge is the "Gate of Infinity" psychic power which also says that the unit "...then arrives using the deep strike special rule"

 

You don't arrive from a transport when disembarking.  "Skies of..." states that the unit is deployed using the deep strike special rule, it isn't arriving by it.

 

At this point I feel I'm just repeating myself.  The wording is quite clear, the FAQ only spells out the same conclusion as the RAW in more basic terms.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Which means that you are arriving from reserves using the deep strike special rule.

 

Can you arrive by Deep Strike by any other means?

 

I hope this isn't going to devolve into a counts as/as if but isn't discussion. ;)

 

If a unit is being deployed 'as if' they were Deep Striking, then surely they are being deployed 'as if' they have arrived from reserves using the Deep Strike rules.

[The Emperor's Champion]

You're either Deep Striking or you're not. There's no difference to the game mechanics as to if you're coming from Reserves, from a Transport with a special rule, or teleporting across the board.

[Dam13n]

Gent - I haven't said "counts-as" or "as-if". 

 

There are multiple ways a unit can be called upon to deep strike, we all know this. 

 

From the "skies of..." to the Necron Veil of Darkness to Gate of Infinity there are a number of items/special rules in addition to arriving from reserves that allow a unit to be deployed or re-deployed or move using the deep strike mechanic.

 

TEC - The mechanic is the same, the initiating trigger varies (see above).

 

Heroic Intervention lists a 2 part trigger in order for it to activate - (1) the unit must arrive (by some means) and (2) it must do so via Deep Strike.

 

A unit coming in from reserves is arriving - the reserve rules state as such.  Therefore arriving from reserves via deep strike fits both parts of the required trigger for activating Heroic Intervention.

 

A unit deploying/disembarking via "Skies of..." isn't listed as arriving, therefore doesn't fit trigger (1), so doesn't activate Heroic Intervention.