Stormraven & Vanguard

[Squirrelloid]

Squirrel - so you disagree with me, yet come to the same conclusion - that Vanguard cannot assault after using "Skies of..."

 

You also appear to have missed my point entirely.  The "deepstrike" part isn't the key word in either rule.  Heroic intervention requires you to arrive via deep strike.  Which means that you are arriving from reserves using the deep strike special rule.

 

The only other mechanism that follows that wording to my knowledge is the "Gate of Infinity" psychic power which also says that the unit "...then arrives using the deep strike special rule"

 

You don't arrive from a transport when disembarking.  "Skies of..." states that the unit is deployed using the deep strike special rule, it isn't arriving by it.

 

At this point I feel I'm just repeating myself.  The wording is quite clear, the FAQ only spells out the same conclusion as the RAW in more basic terms.

 

We arrive at the same conclusion because the FAQ is clear.  VVs can't assault after Skies of Blood.

 

I disagree with your interpretation that we don't need the FAQ to conclude that.  Without the FAQ, I think they could assault after deploying via skies of blood.  The deployment is treated as if it were deep striking, which should mean it is in all ways like deep-striking except as specifically noted.  Without the FAQ, nothing then prevents VVs to use their Heroic Intervention rule.

 

I also believe that the exact same units should share the same rules across codices, because they're the exact same units!  Ie, the rules are supposed to model some underlying "fictional reality" of the models, and the same models have the same fictional reality.  (Rules should attach to models, not armies).  So I think the BA FAQ applies to the regular SM codex VVs and the Skies of Fury rule of the SM Stormraven. 

 

Anything else is stupid.  (Which doesn't mean it isn't true).  I'm willing to concede, by current RAW, that SM VVs can Heroic Intervention after using Skies of Fury, but I think GW will FAQ that if anyone can find the supplement FAQ.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Gent - I haven't said "counts-as" or "as-if".

 

From Skies of...

 

 

and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking

 

Deep Strike is deployment by arrival from reserves.  Are those being deployed 'as if' they were Deep Striking, being deployed as if they were arriving from reserves?

[The Emperor's Champion]

The problem is that you're basically imagining the "arriving" part.
You'd be incredibly hard-pressed to prove that every unit ever Deep Striking isn't "arriving" just inherently in some manner.

[Gentlemanloser]

How do you place the unit 'as if' it was Deep Striking, if you don't follow the rules presented in the "Arriving by Deep Strike" section?

 

Now, if the Skies rule said something like "place the units using the mechanics of the Deep Strike rule", as in;

 

Place one mini, roll for scatter

Place rest around in a circle

 

Then it would be different.

 

But if it did, you wouldn't be 'Deep Sriking', and wouldn't (unlike using Skies) be tied to any restrictions that the Deep Strike rule places upon you.

 

If you actually *are* being deployed 'as if' you were Deep Striking (which is arriving from reserves), then you're held by it's inherent restrions of;

 

May not move any futher

May not charge

 

As if, or not as if?

 

Edit: I'm too lazy (at least I'm honest! :P) to go upstairs and check Veil in my Necron 'dex, but the BRB version of Gate states;

 

 

It then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike

[Magpie]

You also appear to have missed my point entirely.  The "deepstrike" part isn't the key word in either rule.  Heroic intervention requires you to arrive via deep strike.  Which means that you are arriving (from reserves) using the deep strike special rule.

 

Actually the HI rule requires you to arrive FROM Deep Strike, not VIA so that actually reinforces the suggestion you have to be in Deep Strike Reserve to be able to use HI, IMO

[Grey Mage]

I think its more difficult the say that it makes sense that the BA codex, with its heavy emphasis on assault marines and reduction in DS scatter cant deploy out of a stormraven and assault with their VV squads, but that C:SM can given that there is a FAQ that covers both sets of identically written rules because of a small change in the title.

 

Honestly, can you see that going over well in a normal conversation? If you were in a court, and said something like this would you still expect to get fined?

I would expect the judge to laugh at me, and I cant expect my opponent to do anything less in this matter.

[Hellios]

RAW Vanguard from C:SM can never use Heroic Intervention. Heroic Intervention can only be used when a model "arrives from Deep Strike"... It is impossible to be at Deep Strike and so you can't arrive from Deep Strike. If only it was arrive by Deep Strike or from reserves...

[Squirrelloid]

FWIW, teh 1.4 BA FAQ (which is not linked from the stickied post...) updates the BA Stormraven to 'Skies of Fury', so its not only a similar but differently named rule, its the same rule.  And models deploying via it cannot assault explicitly.

[Ming]

Not a big deal.  Vanguard are designed to enter the game once from reserves, and if deep striking solo can do as a heroic intervention, take the risk of scattering, and then if still able, assault.  I would think it rare that they could finish the assault, re-board a StormXXXX, then a turn after that re-deploy.  Tactically the problem becomes arriving turn 2, reboarding turn 3, redeploying turn 4, and likely after that, being the other player's kill point. You'd rather deep strike HI turn 2, assault another target turn 3, assault another target turn 4, yada yada...leave the StormXXXX as a transport / refuge for a scoring unit...

[Gentlemanloser]

 

FWIW, teh 1.4 BA FAQ (which is not linked from the stickied post...) updates the BA Stormraven to 'Skies of Fury', so its not only a similar but differently named rule, its the same rule.  And models deploying via it cannot assault explicitly.

 

Unless you have a unit with a Codex rule that allows you to do so, that hasn't been addressed by that specific Codexes FAQ...

 

As said above, at worst this is a Codex - Codex dispute, and needs to be rolled for (if the supplement counts as a 'codex' for conflict resolution purposes, and not say an addendum to the BRB...), or it's a case of Page 7 trumping again on something I think we can all agree on isn't intended (given the BA FAQ) but is still currently RAW.

 

Unless we want to continue the as if / counts as arriving by Deep Strike isn't actually arriving by Deep Strike.

[Squirrelloid]

The only reason to forbid assaulting after 'deepstriking' via skies of fury is to stop Vanguard Veterans from assaulting, since no one else could do so after 'deepstriking' anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

As of now.  Who knows what new rules/units more 6th edition Codexes will bring.

 

Not that I'm implying GW are good at future proofing at all. ;)