Challange Question

[yasarkasaba]

Hi guys,

 

I still can't get used to that challange thing and there is sth that confuses me. Here it is;

 

In BRB, it says that "only one challange can be issued per close combat"

 

Does that mean that one player can only issue one challenge till the combat is resolved, i mean one unit flees or beeing destroyed or it just means that you can issue a challange per turn?

 

Thanks for the answer already.

[Morollan]

I think it means that only one challenge can be ongoing in a particular combat at any given time. Once that challenge is concluded then another can be issued though.

[DarkGuard]

Search is your friend:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256408-one-challenge-per-combat/?hl=%2Bchallenges&do=findComment&comment=3120384

 

I can't remember seeing an FAQ yet to clarify this, but as Morollan and dswanick in the other thread stated, I'd say it's one per combat, with combat being the entire overarching thing that encompasses a series of rounds.

[yasarkasaba]

Search is your friend:

 

Sorry for that and thanks for the help :)

[yasarkasaba]

So for example a Demon Prince asssaults my tactical squad. Pedro is attached to that squad too. DP says challange, i accept it with my sergeant and my sergeant died at that turn. Than second turn started. Can DP again issues a challange to Pedro. I mean he already issues a challange and killed my sergeant and i don't want to issue a challange.

I mean it is important for me to learn cause these annoying DP's or Bloodthirsters always attacks my Pedro squad and always kills the squads sergeant, than Pedro, than full squad...

[dswanick]

So for example a Demon Prince asssaults my tactical squad. Pedro is attached to that squad too. DP says challange, i accept it with my sergeant and my sergeant died at that turn. Than second turn started. Can DP again issues a challange to Pedro. I mean he already issues a challange and killed my sergeant and i don't want to issue a challange.

I mean it is important for me to learn cause these annoying DP's or Bloodthirsters always attacks my Pedro squad and always kills the squads sergeant, than Pedro, than full squad...

But you managed to tar-pit him for three turns instead of one...

My solution - a friendly agreement with my opponent that no challenges must be issued or accepted, and there are no penalties for doing so. The Challenge mechanic is the second stupidest thing in 6th Ed.

[yasarkasaba]

Deamons are not that friendly :D

[Leonaides]

In that case, you need to get the sergeant a stormshield for an invulnerable save. Or kill the dp before it gets to your squad.

[pyroknight]

This came up in a game last night, and I figured I would throw it here as it is related to challenges. 

Unit A (with an independent character) charges unit B (also with an independent character). 

Unit A issues a challenge and the two independent characters fight in the challenge. 

A non-allied Unit C (an Ironclad dreadnought) comes along and kills everyone in units A and B except the two characters stuck in the challenge. 

Since Unit C is not attached to any character in the combat, but also cannot attack anyone in the combat is he free to leave? Or is he stuck in the combat waiting for the challenge to end? 

[dswanick]

This came up in a game last night, and I figured I would throw it here as it is related to challenges. 

 

Unit A (with an independent character) charges unit B (also with an independent character). 

Unit A issues a challenge and the two independent characters fight in the challenge. 

A non-allied Unit C (an Ironclad dreadnought) comes along and kills everyone in units A and B except the two characters stuck in the challenge. 

 

Since Unit C is not attached to any character in the combat, but also cannot attack anyone in the combat is he free to leave? Or is he stuck in the combat waiting for the challenge to end?

You were playing a three-way game? There are no provisions for three-way games, so it's all going to be up to the players playing.

[Leonaides]

I'd say stuck though...

[yasarkasaba]

I still can't figure out this challange thing but i presume a character can issue a chalange at every turn if he is avaible. I mean he can challange both my IC and sergeant in the same combat but in different rounds. Hope he can't though. Wish GW publishes a new FAQ about that...

[cielaq]

While the challenge is in progress, he cannot challenge another character in the same combat. The only way to issue second challenge is to kill the first opponent.

[Morollan]

While the challenge is in progress, he cannot challenge another character in the same combat. The only way to issue second challenge is to kill the first opponent.

 

Also, he can't challenge specific characters. You issue a challenge and it is up to the challenged player to decide who accepts (if anyone).

[Dam13n]

Defining a combat:

1 - Page 22: Choose a Combat:
"There may be... snip ...until all combats are resolved"
- this defines "a combat" as 1 fight sub-phase. Once that fight sub-phase has completed, the combat is resolved.
- this is different from being locked in combat, which is the state the unit remains in until one is wiped out or flees.
- if a unit is locked in combat, a new combat commences automatically at the start of the next fight sub-phase.

2 - Page 64: Issuing a Challenge:
"Only one challenge can be issued per close combat"
"Once one challenge has been made, no further challenges can be issued in that combat whilst that challenge is on-going"
- Self-explanatory.

3 - Page 65: Round Two:
"If both characters survive a challenge... snip ...then they continue to fight in the next round of close combat"
- In other words when you start round two and come to "issuing a challenge", as there is a challenge on-going, no new challenge may be issued.

4 - Page 65: Combatant Slain:
"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be on-going until the end of the phase"
- In order to stop enemies at a lower Initiative step then attacking the character who won the challenge.

Combined:

Round 1 of Combat:
- Challenge issued and accepted (ref 2) - resolve one round of the challenge - for the sake of the example, both characters survive, units remain 'locked in combat' and combat is resolved (ref 1)
Round 2 of Combat:
- Both Characters locked in an on-going challenge, therefore no new challenge can be issued (ref 3) - resolve one more round of the challenge - for the sake of example, one character dies (ref 4), units remain 'locked in combat' and combat is resolved (ref 1)
Round 3 of Combat:
- No on-going Challenge so (ref 3) no longer applies, therefore there is no on-going challenge in this combat. New challenge may be issued if there are still characters on both sides of the combat (ref 2).

The key thing is the definition of a combat. Page 22 defines this as one round of combat.
Being 'locked in combat' is different, it defines the state the units are in in-between combats (rounds of combat).
The reason it defines "one challenge per combat" is because there can be combats involving more than 2 units, this is still one combat, therefore only one challenge may be on-going in that "multiple combat" at any one time. (see page 27).

In the case of a multi-player game (i.e. a three way battle) the RAW remains, each combat, regardless of the number of units (or which players control them) involved may only have one on-going challenge in each round of the combat.
In the example given above (by pyroknight), the Ironclad is still locked in combat, so cannot leave even though he cannot strike blows against either party. He simply gets to watch, point and laugh at the two combatants. (see "Outside Forces" page 64 and "Morale Support" page 65)

Now in the case of issuing challenges, if there are three units each controlled by a different player, and one of them issues a challenge, the RAW states you cannot declare your intended target of the challenge.
At this point it is down to the two players whose units have been challenged to accept/refuse.
Now I feel accepting should come down to whoever verbally accepts first, the player who didn't accept is unaffected (doesn't count as refusing) because the challenge has been accepted. (note I say should, because there is no clear RAW for this, as such it's the players (or GMs) decision at this point.)
However if both players refuse, the RAW says one character that could have accepted is unable to fight, this could be one character from either opponents' unit, the challenging player gets to pick which.


Edit - I've deliberately ignored Heroic Intervention for the purpose of the example (above) to keep things more straight-forward.

[yasarkasaba]

Thanks Dam13n, your explanation was very enlightening. Now almost everything is clear in my head abour challanges. Like you say, the tricky part is the definition of combat.