Kol Saresk Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 EDIT SECUNDUS: Could you please provide a source for this second daemon sword? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3369893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Not to mention that a daemon would have no reason to be unsettled by visions of Ferrous Manus, unlike the "true" Fulgrim. Other winners of the Heresy: If not Angron specifically, the World Eaters in general. Given that their brains have been rewired to only take pleasure in battle and bloodshed, and ten thousand years after the Heresy the war hasn't slowed down yet...Huzzah! Twelfth Legion couldn't be happier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3369899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Alpharius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3369937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I'm not sure where the "Curze had a choice" arguement comes from. While Malcharion did state that his visions were sometimes wrong and Sevatar sneers at the idea of a fixed destiny, the fact remains that every vision of Night Haunter's we've witnessed so far (Fulgrim and Lorgar's ascension, Ferrous and Dorn's deaths, his own fate) has played out exactly as he saw it. He could most probably not have prevented the fates of Lorgar Fulgrim Ferrus and Dorn. But he could have prevented his own fate IF he had been willing to see beyond his own experiences on Nostromo. Curze is more a victim of his own stubborness then of any agent of Chaos. He identifies what the right thing to do is but he activelly rejects it because it does not conform with his predefined views of how things should be. Of the traitor primarchs currently i see him as the biggest disapointment Angron being partially lobotomised could not change his fate Curze lacked the courage to even try and change his fate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I wonder how Curze and Angron viewed each other? Probably both felt relieved in a way that the other was a bigger screw up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The lawyers.....they're the only real winners in civil proceedings like this.... other than that...Lucius the Eternal got what he wanted.....to be remembered for ever as the greatest swordsman ever lived.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The lawyers.....they're the only real winners in civil proceedings like this.... other than that...Lucius the Eternal got what he wanted.....to be remembered for ever as the greatest swordsman ever lived.... Actually he is remembered as an epic fail, at least by me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I wonder how Curze and Angron viewed each other? Probably both felt relieved in a way that the other was a bigger screw up. Angron never wanted to be a primarch or fight for the emperor. Angron also has a legimitate reason why he was they way he was. Angron in his lucid moments was able to verbally make his argument without killing someone or saying F this i dont wnat to hear any criticism of my methods. Angron from the day that the nails where implanted never had a chance Curze had every chance to change his destiny he chose not to. Curze in my view is the greater screw up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Night Haunter is the bigger screw up than Angron? Tell me, which Primarch made his world a peaceful and prosperous society with a zero percent crime rate, and which one led his followers to their own deaths? Angron was the Imperium's monster because thanks to the Butcher's Nails only in the depths of slaughter could he find serenity. Curze CHOSE his path, believing that only through fear could humanity be controlled and guided. Angron was always driven by his past...Curze looked at what his once lawful homeworld became under the Emperor's "benevolent guidance" and saw that following the Golden Throne would doom humanity's future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Night Haunter is the bigger screw up than Angron? Tell me, which Primarch made his world a peaceful and prosperous society with a zero percent crime rate, and which one led his followers to their own deaths? Angron was the Imperium's monster because thanks to the Butcher's Nails only in the depths of slaughter could he find serenity. Curze CHOSE his path, believing that only through fear could humanity be controlled and guided. Angron was always driven by his past...Curze looked at what his once lawful homeworld became under the Emperor's "benevolent guidance" and saw that following the Golden Throne would doom humanity's future. Curze ruled through fear when he left the planet it almost immediatly reverted back to what it was. Curze never learned that ruling through fear is not enough when he had plenty of oppertunities to do so when he left the planet. Angron was doomed the minute he was given the Butchers nails he never really had a chance as the nails could not be removed without killing him for him to get a far a he did while being partially lobotomised and being in pain every second of his life is an achievement in itself. Curze wasted his potential Angrons potential was stolen from him that is the difference between them. Curze could have been better then he was but wasted his potential. In short Curze underachieved Angron given that he was partially lobotomised overachieved. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Angron took a wonderful legion, then turned them into a shattered legion of blood thirsty madmen. Curze took a legion of criminals, behaved according to his legion. Both of them are far from being ideal primarchs but Angron is the worst case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 And what exactly says the Night Lords were criminals before Curze came to them? Everything I can remember points to the "criminal element" being something that happened in the waning years of the Great Crusade as Nostramo slid back into its former habits while under the watchful eye of the Administratum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Going by "The Dark King" what Curze learned in the Crusade was that rule through fear works, and mercy leads to sin and corruption. Also, rule by fear doesn't work in 40k? I suppose the Emperor holds his realm togather by the great love his subjects feel for him, and not, say, the fear of huge armies of power armored superhumans descending from the sky and murdering anyone who steps out of line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Going by "The Dark King" what Curze learned in the Crusade was that rule through fear works, and mercy leads to sin and corruption. Also, rule by fear doesn't work in 40k? I suppose the Emperor holds his realm togather by the great love his subjects feel for him, and not, say, the fear of huge armies of power armored superhumans descending from the sky and murdering anyone who steps out of line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 EDIT SECUNDUS: Could you please provide a source for this second daemon sword? Fulgrim had two chaos swords in his posseson. The first was a silver blade found in the care of the Laer, pg 106 Fulgrim. This blade corrupted him and the deamon in it possed him when he killed his brother Ferrus, pg 490 Fulgrim. This is the sword seen on the cover of Fulgim. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?173554-Inconsistencies-with-Artists-vs-Actual-fluff) This sword was then given to Lucius the Eternal and is still in his care, pg 590 Fulgrim. The second sword that Fulgim uses is the anathame blade with a golden hilt that was stolen from the interex by Erebus, and wounded Horus. Pg 508-509 of Fulgrim talks about both swords. I believe that the daemon in the anathame sword takes over the body of Fulgim from the daemon once trapped in the Laer blade. Those who feel Fulgrim has reasserted control of his body have been tricked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Okay, where is the source that says a daemon is bound into the Interex anathame and that the anathame was a Chaos weapon? Last I heard, it was just a sentient sword forged by a species that was fighting Chaos. EDIT: Also, if there is another daemon possessing the body and the first one was shoved into the painting, what happened to Fulgrim's soul? And as Wade Garret pointed out, why a daemon care about killing Ferrus Manus? And why does Graham McNeil refer to Fulgrim and Perturabo as brothers in his author's note in Angel Exterminatus? I'm sorry, but what you are saying is not just new, but rather off the wall. I know there is the Murder Sword in the current Codex, but it's not even a daemon weapon in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I seem to recall that it does say that its source of power lies in it being possessed, when it was first introduced. But I don't think it's the same type of possession. It sounded more like they were saying it was "enhanced" by a Daemonic essence rather than having the soul and personality of an evil entity bound within it. So yeah, it is "possessed" in a sense, but not in the way that would allow that theory to work. Having read Angel Exterminatus and that short story, I think that Fulgrim isn't telling the whole truth but he isn't lying either. I don't think he did banish the daemon from himself and I think that the Fulgrim That Was is still imprisoned within that portrait. But he's not possessed anymore. He's not a Daemon wearing a Primarch meat suit. He is Fulgrim. And he is the Daemon. And he's not the Old Fulgrim but he still is Fulgrim. I think that the Daemon possessing the Laeran sword bit off more than he could chew and though he had complete control for a bit, over time the distinction between the Daemon and Fulgrim became blurred. How it happened isn't particularly important, I think. Maybe the Daemon became Fulgrim. Maybe the identity of Fulgrim fused with that of the Daemon and they became two parts of a whole. Maybe Fulgrim absorbed the Daemon into itself. Who triggered the amalgamation and who came out the better isn't particularly important, because what was created was both of them and neither of them. By the time that Lucius and his merry band of conspirators confronted Fulgrim about it, there wasn't a distinction anymore. And Fulgrim, after experiencing the Slaaneshi Daemon within him, wanted to become even more. And another shift happens. The Fulgrim That Was is still imprisoned. The Fulgrim That Is died at the hands of Eidolon as Perturabo watched on in horror (boy, phrased in that way gives the scene an entirely different context). And the Fulgrim That Will Be was born. They're not the same Fulgrim, but they are all Fulgrim. In a sense, Fulgrim really was a butterfly. In every way. He was pretty, he was colorful, he started as a maggot (in the butterfly's eyes, yeah), went through a cocoon period and has since ascended. And he because no matter how beautiful he is, no matter how transcendant, he is still just a bug. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Okay, where is the source that says a daemon is bound into the Interex anathame and that the anathame was a Chaos weapon? Last I heard, it was just a sentient sword forged by a species that was fighting Chaos. EDIT: Also, if there is another daemon possessing the body and the first one was shoved into the painting, what happened to Fulgrim's soul? And as Wade Garret pointed out, why a daemon care about killing Ferrus Manus? And why does Graham McNeil refer to Fulgrim and Perturabo as brothers in his author's note in Angel Exterminatus? I'm sorry, but what you are saying is not just new, but rather off the wall. I know there is the Murder Sword in the current Codex, but it's not even a daemon weapon in there. Well it is a deamon weapon because... Pg 383 Horus Rising, Jephta Naud explains what the kinebrach anathame weapons are. Sindermann asked if they were cursed or enchanted and Naud said "I suppose that is how you could describe it," on 393 Mithras Tull tells Loken that Kaos is the root of all sorcery and magic. Erebus Steals the sword.. and gives it to the daemon guy who mortally wounds Horus pg 146 False Gods. Pg 176 Angel Exterminatus Fabuis says about the sword. "At first i thought the sentience of the blade was entirely mad, that all it could do was kill. But i have discovered that it enjoys suffering too, that its effect can be tailored if you know how to ask." It is a Deamon sword. One made by a supper high tech alien race. It has a daemon bound to it because.... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemon_Weapon#.UZFN0srYz-8 Not really sure if i should have to prove that a daemon is in a chaos sword but meh. Now as to what happened to the Laer daemon ... maybe it shares the painting with Fulgrim.. it shared his body why not a object? Why would he care about Ferrus... well he is a daemon.. maybe he was lying? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Well, most of it is circumstantial and I am still a skeptic of that specific theory but fair enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 And what exactly says the Night Lords were criminals before Curze came to them? Everything I can remember points to the "criminal element" being something that happened in the waning years of the Great Crusade as Nostramo slid back into its former habits while under the watchful eye of the Administratum. Isn't it a fluff that Terran born Night Lord marines were mainly consisted of criminals? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Not that I have heard of. As far as I know, that has always been supposition. But if there is a piece of fluff that says so, I will accept it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Well, most of it is circumstantial and I am still a skeptic of that specific theory but fair enough. You have taken the first step on a road..... Now the more i think about it.. maybe the Laer deamon, when kicked out of Fulgims body, found its way into Lucius. Re read Cracked reflection. It was Lucius who was looking at the painting. The Laer sword killed his Teran blade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Echoing an earlier post, Kor Phaeron and to a lesser extent Erebus are the true victors of the Heresy. I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere that they wanted the long war and had foreseen it happening. I think Lorgar is definitely not a 'winner' he is someone driven mad by the truth and rejection from his father; essentially the ultimate villain in some respects, he had the capacity to be of the greatest good but has fallen to the deepest darkness, don't forget in one of the Ultramarines HH books that I cannot remember the name of Roboute says that Lorgar is suffering and in agony for what he is doing and is happening. In some ways Abbaddon wins in a very pyrrhic way; he goes completly insane with grief but it gives him the opportunity to become the next Warmaster. In terms of Alpharius; I don't think there is any winners or losers with the AL, they are fighting they're own agenda and simply adapt to whatever life throws at them, in that way as a legion they are the ultimate winner (but not in other more practical tangible ways.) It's certainly easier to say who the losers are: Purterabo: He was screwed before the Heresy, essentially being the abused son that everyone ignores. He essentially a genius autistic that no one recognises. He goes insane and puts his faith in all the wrong people (We're looking at you Horus and Fulgrim). Angron: The Galaxy looked upon Angron and said "hey here's a guy we can completely screw over". He's suicidal and insane just after taking control of the War Hounds, let alone at the Heresy, it only gets worse and worse and he is enslaved once more really. Magnus: What can I say? Manipulated and screwed by the Changer of Ways, takes the Brussel Sprout souffle and calls it chocolate by the end Mortarian: Becomes everything he hates. Corax, Ferrus Mannus, Vulkan; seriously if these guys didn't get the shortest stick of all the loyalists I don't know who did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Corax, Ferrus Mannus, Vulkan; seriously if these guys didn't get the shortest stick of all the loyalists I don't know who did.Sanguinius and Dorn get the absolute shortest of sticks. Typhon is the only true victor, from beginning to end. He has his lord's utmost favor, he succeeded turning his Legion and Primarch. Nurgle is the most patient, so losing the Heresy ain't no thang. Erry and Korry bicker still, the Primarchs either got gypped or were changed by the process into something far different, Lucius almost got taken out as a "loyalist." Only Typhon won total victory. From beginning to end, the only low point for him was pretending to be loyal to the Emperor before the Heresy. Edit: stupid phone, I didn't tell you to submit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Don't get how Angron is a loser. He was miserable and in constant pain, dying, before the Heresy. Now he's immortal, stronger than ever and freed from guilt and regret. Yes, he's traded one dictator for another, but its not like he liked working for the Emperor. At least Khorne likes him for who he is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275284-victors-of-the-heresy/page/2/#findComment-3370582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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