Victors of the Heresy

[Conn Eremon]

Khorne might, but Angron didn't. He is in no different a place than before, its just that his curse was replaced with something that empowers him instead of slowly killing him. But its still essentially the same curse. And considering that Khorne would be no different than the Emperor in Angron's eyes, the only thing that has changed is that he has an eternity now, when he only had a lengthened mortality. What Lorgar did to Angron was imprison him in eternal Hell.

 

Totally a winner, though. Yeah.

[Aegnor]

Not totally a loser either.

[Wade Garrett]

And considering that Khorne would be no different than the Emperor in Angron's eyes, the only thing that has changed is that he has an eternity now, when he only had a lengthened mortality. What Lorgar did to Angron was imprison him in eternal Hell.

.

Why would Angron see Khorne in the same way as he did the paperskin who stole him from the brothers and sisters he swore to die beside?

 

Given that Angron came to love the Nails ("They give me peace. They let me dream." "If they are killing me it's slow enough that I feel neither pain nor fear, and I will fight anyone who tries to remove them.") why should he find Khorne's favor a torment?

 

Magnus is the angsty daemon primarch who whines about his fate. Angron is a different animal altogether.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

And considering that Khorne would be no different than the Emperor in Angron's eyes, the only thing that has changed is that he has an eternity now, when he only had a lengthened mortality. What Lorgar did to Angron was imprison him in eternal Hell.

.

Why would Angron see Khorne in the same way as he did the paperskin who stole him from the brothers and sisters he swore to die beside?

 

Given that Angron came to love the Nails ("They give me peace. They let me dream." "If they are killing me it's slow enough that I feel neither pain nor fear, and I will fight anyone who tries to remove them.") why should he find Khorne's favor a torment?

 

Magnus is the angsty daemon primarch who whines about his fate. Angron is a different animal altogether.

Because Khorne would have him gobble up his brothers and sisters' bodies and bring their skulls for the throne he's building on the lakeside property in Hell's greatest real estate location.

[Conn Eremon]

The whole "I don't care what you want to do, you're going to live and kill for me" thing sums up Angron's Emperor-aimed angst and its absolutely no different than what Khorne says.

 

He went from service to a power that refuses him peace and forces him to near-eternal war to service tho a power that refuses him peace and forces him to eternal war. Yep. Big differences.

[Aegnor]

I don't think there is any basis to say that Angron objected to being violent though or particularly wanted peace though. He thought the Emperor's reasons for using him that way were not valid, but killing people is what he liked doing.

 

I think there's a difference between daemonic ascension and daemonic possession, and how the original soul feels about the results.

 

And given he ascended to being a daemon, rather than being possessed, it seems to me that his attitude towards serving Khorne's objectives would have changed with him. There's no "real Angron" trapped in a corner of his mind while some foreign entity makes him do abhorrent acts. Rather, Khorne has given the real Angron the freedom to stop caring why he is fighting and killing and just get on with it, and be content.

 

You can argue this is a debasement of Angron's nature, and that it wasn't something he chose. Both are true. Neither means he is necessarily unhappy either. Khorne isn't Slaanesh or Tzeentch and doesn't seem to relish making his champions miserable for his own amusement. Instead he gives them what they want so they can give him what he wants.

 

The other thing is whether he did actually have a choice at some point. He had no choice obviously in the ritual itself being enacted, but we don't know what was said between Angron and Khorne as he underwent the process. He may well have been asked to commit to the change before the transformation was complete. We just don't know. In Sarah Cawkwell's account of a (WHFB) Khornate daemonic ascension, Valkia was asked to commit to it. As an example.

[godking]

 

EDIT SECUNDUS: Could you please provide a source for this second daemon sword?

 

Fulgrim had two chaos swords in his posseson.  The first was a silver blade found in the care of the Laer, pg 106 Fulgrim.  This blade corrupted him and the deamon in it possed him when he killed  his brother Ferrus, pg 490 Fulgrim.  This is the sword seen on the cover of Fulgim. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?173554-Inconsistencies-with-Artists-vs-Actual-fluff)  This sword was then given to Lucius the Eternal and is still in his care, pg 590 Fulgrim.  The second sword that Fulgim uses is the anathame blade with a golden hilt that was stolen from the interex by Erebus, and wounded Horus.   Pg 508-509 of Fulgrim talks about both swords.   I believe that the daemon in the anathame sword takes over the body of Fulgim from the daemon once trapped in the Laer blade.  Those who feel Fulgrim has reasserted control of his body have been tricked.

 

Its SPECIFICALLY stated in the the Mirror Crack,d that Fulgrim regained control.

 

 

And what exactly says the Night Lords were criminals before Curze came to them? Everything I can remember points to the "criminal element" being something that happened in the waning years of the Great Crusade as Nostramo slid back into its former habits while under the watchful eye of the Administratum.

 

Isn't it a fluff that Terran born Night Lord marines were mainly consisted of criminals?

No it is'nt Nostromo born Night lords yes Teran born nightlords no.

[Kol Saresk]

Only the later Nostramans though. There were one or two generations that remembered the Night Haunter and actually behaved. It was only when his memory began to disappear that everyone realized "hey, all the Administratum does is give us a slap on the wrist and it looks like the Night Haunter ain't coming back, so let' party like rock stars!"

 

But the large influx afterwards is what screwed everything up.

 

EDIT: In A Reflection Crack'd, it is Fulgrim who explicitly states that he is once again Fulgrim. So like I said, while Lord Lorne Walkier's theory is circumstantial, it can be true. It is not my personal theory but it is a theory.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, in Angel Exterminatus Fabius Bile is still chatting away with an intelligence inside of Anathame. So unless we posit that the hypothetical second daemon shoved the first one into the blade that held it without losing any of Anathame's special powers in the process, and this second daemon has violent freak outs at the sight of Ferrous Manus...

 

Is it possible? Well, perhaps in the sense that "The whole Heresy is a nightmare Loken is having after suffering severe skull trauma in the fight with the false Imperium in Horus Rising" is a viable theory.

[GhostMalone]

Angron was a potential unrealised, each primarch was a facet/piece of the emperors own pshyce. This in itself is the reason why the primarchs are the mirror of humanities greatest virtues and flaws. In angrons case everything he was meant to be was rewired from the earliest age and the only thing he was allowed to feel was satisfaction in fighting due to the nails. We have established that in the few moments when he has control he can provide legitimate intelligence and allow some measure of potential to shine through in those moments. Who is to say that he is a winner for rising to demonic accession, the war hounds were essentially brotherhood and unity before the discovery of angron. If you think about it they are a lot like the wolves of fenris without the genetic loyalty in there gene seed. In battle for the fang they establish that through genetic manipulation they were trying to remove the wulfen and that they envisioned chapters of space wolves stationed around the eye of terror containing chaos. Who isn't to say that angron and his legion prior heresy were intended for this role, the emperor had a plan for humanity the wolves were the executioners who's to say that the war hounds were not the guards. It's neither a win or lose for angron his legion were corrupted and he's potential squandered. His hate for his emperor was due to the slave pits and nails.

[Kol Saresk]

Hehe, it's funny you bring that up because FW's Betrayal strongly hints that the War Hounds were the original Executioners but lost the role when they became the World Eaters. Which kind of sheds a bit of light on the "lost trust" aspect of the opening quote in A D-B's Betrayer.

[GhostMalone]

But even so the whole argument on trust being lost is due to the rediscovery of there primarch, if angron was found without nails who's to say that they wouldn't have taken on there intended role. Khârn himself pre nails said to angron that they were willing to die for him and then underwent implantation of the nails for unity brotherhood and trust for angron, the emperor forbide the continued implantation of nails so you can assume that's when the trust was lost. The unity shown between Khârn and argel tal shows what the war hounds were capable of prior to the heresy. An entire legion was perverted by the use of the nails.

[Kol Saresk]

I wasn't disagreeing. You do bring up a very good point. I just found the "what if" example you used a little humorous because it actually happened in the fluff. Or is at least strongly suggested to have happened.

[GhostMalone]

And as for kurze he was alone and fended for himself, the first act he witnessed was murder. He was overcome by his sense of justice and murdered the assailants, sort of an eye for an eye thing going on. He had no mentor he was working on a base genetic instinct, therefore from the moment that happened his whole outlook changed. Growing up on nostramo would have been hell for someone with such a strong sense of justice. beat and murder were a daily occurrence. This in itself would have been a cause for his extreme views & due to him being alone and undertaking his role that he was created for would have found that the only thing that stopped humanities most extreme crimes were fear and retribution. He had no one to teach him and develop his mind and ethics therefore it became a matter of black and white you misbehave you die you behave you live. The addition of the emperors role in the great crusade for him would have been the reason for his destructive tendencies, the emperor was to late to change his ways he was set on fear and justice

[GhostMalone]

I wasn't disagreeing. You do bring up a very good point. I just found the "what if" example you used a little humorous because it actually happened in the fluff. Or is at least strongly suggested to have happened.

It's funny though how through everything that happened with angron that the only brother to try protect him was lorgar who at first hated him until he learnt in butchers nails why and how the nails work, he then caused demonic accession for his brother just to stop his inevitable death. He literally re wrote the warps song destroyed millions for the love of his brother.

[Reasonable Commissar]

Id seriously doubt that the Anathame is possessing Fulgim since he doesnt have it for long and it gets split into 8 blades in MoC.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Erry and Korry bicker still,

 

I've fallen behind a bit. I presume by Erry and Korry you mean Erebus and Kor Phaeron? Is this from Mark of Calth?

 

I'm going to propose Sanguinius as a winner. He gave everything for the cause he believed in and died without regrets becoming a glorious and beloved hero of the Imperium. It's clear that the general view is that traitor primarchs became perversions of what they could/should have been and slaves to the chaos gods and thus were losers. Of the loyalists, Corax, Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, The Lion saw their Legions devastated.

 

Had Sanguinius lived then like Dorn he would have had to see his beloved father mortally wounded and the aftermath of the Heresy with the dream of Unity in disarray. The grief would probably have eaten at him and he would eventually have died/disappeared like the other loyalists who survived.

[Wade Garrett]

There's the tiny matter of Sanguinus's death condemning all his gene sons bar Mephiston and the Lamenters to eventually become screaming lunatics that make the post Heresy World Eaters look stable in comparison.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Erry and Korry bicker still,

 

I've fallen behind a bit. I presume by Erry and Korry you mean Erebus and Kor Phaeron? Is this from Mark of Calth?

 

 

Yes, Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Not exactly in Mark of Calth. In Shards of Erebus, we see the beginning of it where Erebus "unofficially" cuts off the partnership. I think what Cormac Airt was specifically referring to was Dark Creed of the Word Bearers series by Anthoney Reynolds in which we watch at least one faction of Kor Phaeron's supporters(the 40k incarnation of the Brotherhood) be destroyed while trying to make a play at some of Erebus' supporters. The impression we get from Erebus at the end of the story is that it isn't the first time the two have been at it and it won't be the last, which is also were we see the first cracks in the "unbroken Legion".

I'm going to propose Sanguinius as a winner. He gave everything for the cause he believed in and died without regrets becoming a glorious and beloved hero of the Imperium. It's clear that the general view is that traitor primarchs became perversions of what they could/should have been and slaves to the chaos gods and thus were losers. Of the loyalists, Corax, Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, The Lion saw their Legions devastated.

 

Had Sanguinius lived then like Dorn he would have had to see his beloved father mortally wounded and the aftermath of the Heresy with the dream of Unity in disarray. The grief would probably have eaten at him and he would eventually have died/disappeared like the other loyalists who survived.

Good point.

There's the tiny matter of Sanguinus's death condemning all his gene sons bar Mephiston and the Lamenters to eventually become screaming lunatics that make the post Heresy World Eaters look stable in comparison.

Unintended consequence that accelerated an already present defect. If anything, it was caused by Horus who killed Sanguinius, not Sanguinius by dying. Also, Mephiston had to go crazy before he became sane. The Black Rage and Red Thirst still affect him, he just overcame them. Also, as Heathens pointed out, Forgeworld made the Lamenters susceptible to the same urges as the rest of their kindred. Since everything pertaining to that bit of fluff called it "rumors" anyway, my guess would be that they just have a really low rate of people who fall. That or they believe in euthanasia.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/0/0a/LamentersDC.jpg

 

IIRC, he said the sources were Imperial Armour Volumes 9 and 10.

[randian]

The whole "I don't care what you want to do, you're going to live and kill for me" thing sums up Angron's Emperor-aimed angst and its absolutely no different than what Khorne says.

 

He went from service to a power that refuses him peace and forces him to near-eternal war to service tho a power that refuses him peace and forces him to eternal war. Yep. Big differences.

I think the difference is spiritual corruption. Mortal Angron could have said no, or just left for parts unknown and never came back. Daemon-Primarch Angron not only can't say no or leave, I believe he is incapable of saying no. That much warp energy makes Angron Khorne's slave in mind as well as body, something the Emperor never tried to do to him.

[Kol Saresk]

No, the Emperor did it too. And the same way Khorne did: by proxy. Khârn was to Lorgar as Khorne was to the Emperor. The Emperor didn't convince Angron to join him. He left it to others to convince the Primarch to join. And when Angron joined, he may not have found a replacement for his brothers and sisters that were left to be slaughtered on the planet's surface, but he found a substitute. Something to hold on to. The one reason he had to live: his sons. His faithful sons. The very beings who did not have damnation forced onto them like Angron had, but chose to walk into it willingly. Not once. Not twice. But thrice. If Angron was going to say no, I mean really say no, he probably would have killed himself instead of letting someone he didn't even know convince him to say no.

 

I get why it is so easy to underestimate Angron because he was mentally and emotionally broken due to what he had to go through, but at the same time I think we overestimate him as well. It's obviously that he is still tactically brilliant at certain times even if it is bloody, like when he broke the Brotherhood by stabbing through, launching a first wave onto the planet, destroying the ships in orbit, bombing the surface just outside of contested territory and then launched reinforcements. Bloody and foolhardy, but it worked. But when it comes to people, this is someone who wants to die. And the reality is, most people who want to die, want someone to pick them up, to give them a reason to live. The Emperor used the War Hounds to do that just so he could have another general. But look at the cost of what happened. An entire Legion was lost. If the Emperor was truly one hundred humane in any way shape or form, he would have let Angron die on that planet. Or at least killed him himself. Watching suffering and then standing by while it becomes self-perpetuating makes you no better than the person who started it.

 

But that is a modern, somewhat radical and yet humane view. The Emperor is not humane. He is clinical. His view is the survival of Humanity, regardless of the cost. He would rather burn a world to the ground than let the Humans on it be anything but his vision of Humanity. The same thing with his Legions. True, he gave them some leniency, allowing them to become themselves, for better or worse. But ultimately, they had to be His Legions. Otherwise they were only deserving of being erased from history. And so it was with the Primarchs. He would have His generals, regardless of the cost. It didn't matter if they were broken or not. They were going to lead his Legions into nothing but war whether they liked it or not, as was proven on more than one occasion.

[Wade Garrett]

Look at it this way:

 

What does the happiness, or lack thereof, of twenty beings matter when the galaxy itself is on the line?

[GhostMalone]

It's not even that, they were his sons but they were tools to shape humanities only chance of survival. It's sad what happened to angron but as kol said we underestimate him. His legion were effective despite the butchers bill, and they always effective as a general he was unorthodox but compared to humans or space marines he is a unparalleled genius. After all he's a primarch no matter how abused

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

 

EDIT SECUNDUS: Could you please provide a source for this second daemon sword?

 

Fulgrim

had two chaos swords in his posseson.  The first was a silver blade

found in the care of the Laer, pg 106 Fulgrim.  This blade corrupted him

and the deamon in it possed him when he killed  his brother Ferrus, pg

490 Fulgrim.  This is the sword seen on the cover of Fulgim. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?173554-Inconsistencies-with-Artists-vs-Actual-fluff) 

This sword was then given to Lucius the Eternal and is still in his

care, pg 590 Fulgrim.  The second sword that Fulgim uses is the anathame

blade with a golden hilt that was stolen from the interex by Erebus,

and wounded Horus.   Pg 508-509 of Fulgrim talks about both swords.   I

believe that the daemon in the anathame sword takes over the body of

Fulgim from the daemon once trapped in the Laer blade.  Those who feel

Fulgrim has reasserted control of his body have been tricked.

 

Its SPECIFICALLY stated in the the Mirror Crack,d that Fulgrim regained control.

 

 

If it is that clearly stated perhaps you might give a

quote?  I've reread the story a couple times and fail to see this.  I

will admit that the author goes a long way to convince the reader that

Fulgrim retakes control.  But this would not be the first time that HH

story intentionally mislead the reader, look at Loken's survival.