Deathwing Deepstrike Rules

[BloodForTheBloodGod88]

I read in the DA codex that any squad comprised of units that have Inner Circle (all models in the unit must have IC) can deepstrike with belial w/o scattering and must be within 6(?) inches of belial or something to that effect. So, say my opponent has fielded 1 squad of termys, and deepstrikes the rest of his termys (over half of his army roster) on his beginning of turn 1. Is it legal to deepstrike over half of your army all at once? Any input is welcomed, thanks!

[DarkGuard]

Firstly, Deathwing Terminators are allowed to deploy on board. Therefore they count towards the reserve limit. From the C:DA FAQ on the GW website:

 

 

Q: Do units deploying via the Deathwing Assault special rule count toward the limit of unitsyou are allowed to keep in Reserves at the start of a battle? (p44)

A: Yes.

 

 

Secondly, Belial's rule is that himself, and any Terminators he's joined, do not scatter. It isn't a radius effect. Therefore, you're opponent cannot deploy him in the middle of the board and deploy 4 units with a model within 6" and say they're not scattering.

 

From page 56 on C:DA:

 

 

 Tactical Precision: Belial (and any unit composed entirely of models with the Inner Circle special rule that he has joined) do not scatter when arriving by Deep Strike.

 

 

Also remember that your opponent must decide (and note) what turn his Terminators are arriving during his deployment, he can't deploy and wait for the battle to unfold before deciding etc.

 

In future, if something smells fishy, ask to see the rules. Also make sure your opponent has the FAQ for his army. If your opponent doesn't let you see the rules, or maintains a dodgy interpretation, just pack your stuff up and leave, people like that aren't worth playing. Of course, if it were a genuine mistake, kindly point it out and then forget it, unless your opponent forgets again! :)

[SeattleDV8]

Well if he was deployed to the table he does have a teleport homer, which does have a area of effect, but it does not work on the turn he deep strikes( it has to be on the table at the start of the turn).

Sounds like he is confusing several rules.

That said DarkGuard is spot on.

[Squirrelloid]

They count towards the reserve limit (as per the FAQ), but as per TDA rules, Terminators may *always* start in reserves.   Always means always, so they can keep putting TDA squads in reserves even once they've exceeded their reserve limit, but this keeps them from putting non-Terminators in reserves.  (There isn't an order in which units are assigned to reserves, so all units in reserves must legally be in reserves simultaneously.  Which means a non-TDA unit in reserves when TDA units have overfilled the reserves looks at the reserve limit and 'discovers' its invalidly in reserves).

 

I assume Terminators deep-striking on turn 1 is a Deathwing special rule, since you normally don't roll for reserves until turn 2.

[Fibonacci]

They count towards the reserve limit (as per the FAQ), but as per TDA rules, Terminators may *always* start in reserves.   Always means always, so they can keep putting TDA squads in reserves even once they've exceeded their reserve limit, but this keeps them from putting non-Terminators in reserves.  (There isn't an order in which units are assigned to reserves, so all units in reserves must legally be in reserves simultaneously.  Which means a non-TDA unit in reserves when TDA units have overfilled the reserves looks at the reserve limit and 'discovers' its invalidly in reserves).

 

I assume Terminators deep-striking on turn 1 is a Deathwing special rule, since you normally don't roll for reserves until turn 2.

No.  It means they may be put in reserves even in missions that do not allow reserves.  They still count as far as reserve limits and are not allowed to go over that limit.

 

Also, please read the Dark Angel rules before making comments on how those rules work.

[dswanick]

 

They count towards the reserve limit (as per the FAQ), but as per TDA rules, Terminators may *always* start in reserves.   Always means always, so they can keep putting TDA squads in reserves even once they've exceeded their reserve limit, but this keeps them from putting non-Terminators in reserves.  (There isn't an order in which units are assigned to reserves, so all units in reserves must legally be in reserves simultaneously.  Which means a non-TDA unit in reserves when TDA units have overfilled the reserves looks at the reserve limit and 'discovers' its invalidly in reserves).

 

I assume Terminators deep-striking on turn 1 is a Deathwing special rule, since you normally don't roll for reserves until turn 2.

No.  It means they may be put in reserves even in missions that do not allow reserves.  They still count as far as reserve limits and are not allowed to go over that limit.

 

Also, please read the Dark Angel rules before making comments on how those rules work.

Guys, the C:DA TDA entry does not have the outdated rule referring to 'always may be placed in Reserves'. So no, Squirrelloid, that (incorrect) argument can not even be made in the case of this codex.

[DarkGuard]

Well if he was deployed to the table he does have a teleport homer, which does have a area of effect, but it does not work on the turn he deep strikes( it has to be on the table at the start of the turn).

Sounds like he is confusing several rules.

That said DarkGuard is spot on.

 

I had completely forgotten about the teleport homer (perhaps because I never use it).

 

As you said though, you can't use it on the turn he arrives, and you can't stagger Deathwing Assault as well. Furthermore, for the teleport homer to work, the first model has to be in its range. You then put the other models around that model, which means it could be hard to get loads of units around Belial, particularly if he's in a unit of his own.

[Squirrelloid]

 

 

They count towards the reserve limit (as per the FAQ), but as per TDA rules, Terminators may *always* start in reserves.   Always means always, so they can keep putting TDA squads in reserves even once they've exceeded their reserve limit, but this keeps them from putting non-Terminators in reserves.  (There isn't an order in which units are assigned to reserves, so all units in reserves must legally be in reserves simultaneously.  Which means a non-TDA unit in reserves when TDA units have overfilled the reserves looks at the reserve limit and 'discovers' its invalidly in reserves).

 

I assume Terminators deep-striking on turn 1 is a Deathwing special rule, since you normally don't roll for reserves until turn 2.

No.  It means they may be put in reserves even in missions that do not allow reserves.  They still count as far as reserve limits and are not allowed to go over that limit.

 

Also, please read the Dark Angel rules before making comments on how those rules work.

Guys, the C:DA TDA entry does not have the outdated rule referring to 'always may be placed in Reserves'. So no, Squirrelloid, that (incorrect) argument can not even be made in the case of this codex.

 

Pardon me for thinking all TDA worked the same (which, since they haven't been errataed for BA, apparently isn't true).  I suppose that would make too much sense, which is inimical to GW.

 

But it's not an incorrect argument for codices which do have that wording.  That's a literal reading of that RAW with the FAQ.

[Gentlemanloser]

Even then, 'may always' still doesn't equal 'must'.

 

If a unit in TDA has the option to deploy normally prior to the start of a game, then *any* time it's in reserves (bar being transported by a unit that must start in reserves...) they count towards the limit.

[Marshall Bretton]

there is a very clear difference between units like tda where the rule states: "may always", and things like fliers where they "Must start in reserve"

the first has the option, but still counts towards the reserves total, the second has no choice so it doesn't count.

 

the rule is very clear on reserves, i don't have the book with me so perhaps someone can provide an exact quote, but it states that: "units which MUST start in reserve do not count towards totals when working out how many units may be placed in reserve, this includes dedicated transports and their occupants"

[dswanick]

But it's not an incorrect argument for codices which do have that wording.  That's a literal reading of that RAW with the FAQ.

It is, because the wording is there to allow TDA models to Reserve in missions that don't allow Reserves. There are no longer any BRB missions which don't allow Reserves, and the rule doesn't apply to anything else but that non-existant restriction. The rule is vestigial.

[Squirrelloid]

I agree, they count towards filling the reserve limit, but they may still _always_ be placed in reserves.  So you can overfill the reserves with TDA, but nothing else (that counts towards filling the limit) can be placed in reserves if you do so.

 

And dswanick, the rules only include a sub-clause that the 'may always start in reserves' applies even *if* reserves aren't allowed.  That doesn't limit the rule to applying to that specific situation, it just makes it explicit that it applies even in that situation.

 

If they didn't mean the rule to apply anymore, they'd have errata'ed it out or FAQed it.  Since it still applies, the actual language of the rule is in full force, and that explicitly allows TDA models to *always* be able to choose to be in reserves.  No matter what other rules there are.  Reading intent into the rules is reading them wrong.

 

Edit: I have no disagreement with Gentlemanloser's or Galus's stated points.  I agree they count towards filling the reserve limit.  The 'may always' rule just means they can 'overfill' the reserves, so long as all reserved models have TDA or similar rules.

[Marshall Bretton]

personally i think that is a very dodgy way to play it, but at the moment without books in front of me i can't dispute it.

 

i would take issue with playing like this on principal though.

[Fibonacci]

Do we have to have this same argument every time someone asks about reserves?

 

If you want to forfit a tourney for cheating, follow Squirrel's advice.  Not even Adepticon's unofficial FAQ (which is a dodgey as they get) will allow SM terminators to override the 50% limit.

[Raeven]

 

Well if he was deployed to the table he does have a teleport homer, which does have a area of effect, but it does not work on the turn he deep strikes( it has to be on the table at the start of the turn).

Sounds like he is confusing several rules.

That said DarkGuard is spot on.

 

I had completely forgotten about the teleport homer (perhaps because I never use it).

 

As you said though, you can't use it on the turn he arrives, and you can't stagger Deathwing Assault as well. Furthermore, for the teleport homer to work, the first model has to be in its range. You then put the other models around that model, which means it could be hard to get loads of units around Belial, particularly if he's in a unit of his own.

Run a squad of Ravenwing.  Use their scout move to get near where you want to drop Belial, then bring in the rest of the Termies within 6 inches of the bike squad.  That way, the homer has been on the board since the beginning of the turn and can be used.

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, Squirrell is correct.

 

 

I agree, they count towards filling the reserve limit, but they may
still _always_ be placed in reserves.  So you can overfill the reserves
with TDA, but nothing else (that counts towards filling the limit) can
be placed in reserves if you do so.

 

Guess what the 50% reserve limit rule, and what the TDA 'may always be placed in reserves' rules are. BRB and Codex respectively.

 

And by now we should all be familiar with page 7.

 

BRB tell you you can only have so many units in reserves.  Codex tells you you can put any unit in TDA in reserve.

 

Codex based TDA rule wins.

 

Don't oyu just love both GW and the power of Page 7's cop out clause.

[dswanick]

Actually, Squirrell is correct.

 

 

I agree, they count towards filling the reserve limit, but they may

still _always_ be placed in reserves.  So you can overfill the reserves

with TDA, but nothing else (that counts towards filling the limit) can

be placed in reserves if you do so.

 

Guess what the 50% reserve limit rule, and what the TDA 'may always be placed in reserves' rules are. BRB and Codex respectively.

 

And by now we should all be familiar with page 7.

 

BRB tell you you can only have so many units in reserves.  Codex tells you you can put any unit in TDA in reserve.

 

Codex based TDA rule wins.

 

Don't oyu just love both GW and the power of Page 7's cop out clause.

No, the correct way to play it is the way Fibonacci, Gaius Maximus, and I are describing it.  That one can intentionally mis-interpret the rule if you pretend it is not an outdated rule from a previous version of the rules is not "correct", and we all know better.  GW is removing the rule from each new codex with TDA.  They don't feel the need to "errata" it away because it's a non-issue.  It will continue to be removed from each new marine dex as they get a 6th Ed-compliant version.  Until then, you can play it correctly, or insist on playing it "correctly" and lose opponents and tournaments.

[BloodForTheBloodGod88]

Thank you all for the "schooling" on the subject.  My friend was playing DW at the time.  I deployed first. Then he started his. He put down a LR/Vindy/5 man termy squad and put his 9man deathstar (Belial/Chaplain/Termys) and 3 other 5man termy squads in reserve.  He failed the steal the initiative roll. Needless to say, there was not a whole lot i could do on my first turn since he had 24 models in reserve........So then comes the bottom of turn 1.  He the decides to put the deathstar and 2 other termy squads all down at once and the other 5man squad on a diff part of the table.  Wish i had this forum right then and there bc i KNEW something was fishy... I mean my friend is a cool but damn, he needs to read up on his rules before acting a fool during a game. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

No, the correct way to play it is the way Fibonacci, Gaius Maximus, and I
are describing it.  That one can intentionally mis-interpret the rule
if you pretend it is not an outdated rule from a previous version of the
rules is not "correct", and we all know better.  GW is removing the
rule from each new codex with TDA.  They don't feel the need to "errata"
it away because it's a non-issue.  It will continue to be removed from
each new marine dex as they get a 6th Ed-compliant version.  Until then,
you can play it correctly, or insist on playing it "correctly" and lose
opponents and tournaments.

 

Intended and RAW again.

 

I'd like to think it's not intended for the Brotherhood Champion to have a useless upgrade.  But I guess it must be, as it's not been Errat'd yet.

 

The GK dex (built for 6th) still has the 'may reserve' clause for TDA.  Until GW change that, that's the way it should be played.

[Squirrelloid]

Thank you all for the "schooling" on the subject.  My friend was playing DW at the time.  I deployed first. Then he started his. He put down a LR/Vindy/5 man termy squad and put his 9man deathstar (Belial/Chaplain/Termys) and 3 other 5man termy squads in reserve.  He failed the steal the initiative roll. Needless to say, there was not a whole lot i could do on my first turn since he had 24 models in reserve........So then comes the bottom of turn 1.  He the decides to put the deathstar and 2 other termy squads all down at once and the other 5man squad on a diff part of the table.  Wish i had this forum right then and there bc i KNEW something was fishy... I mean my friend is a cool but damn, he needs to read up on his rules before acting a fool during a game. 

 

LR

Vindy

5x Term Squads

Belial

Chaplain 

 

Total 9: 5 units in reserve

 

That's 4 terminator units in reserves easy.

 

Then the independent characters join the squad in reserves as per p39 as part of their deployment.  That's perfectly legal reserve divisions by the core rules.

[dswanick]

 

Thank you all for the "schooling" on the subject.  My friend was playing DW at the time.  I deployed first. Then he started his. He put down a LR/Vindy/5 man termy squad and put his 9man deathstar (Belial/Chaplain/Termys) and 3 other 5man termy squads in reserve.  He failed the steal the initiative roll. Needless to say, there was not a whole lot i could do on my first turn since he had 24 models in reserve........So then comes the bottom of turn 1.  He the decides to put the deathstar and 2 other termy squads all down at once and the other 5man squad on a diff part of the table.  Wish i had this forum right then and there bc i KNEW something was fishy... I mean my friend is a cool but damn, he needs to read up on his rules before acting a fool during a game. 

 

LR

Vindy

5x Term Squads

Belial

Chaplain 

 

Total 9: 5 units in reserve

 

That's 4 terminator units in reserves easy.

 

Then the independent characters join the squad in reserves as per p39 as part of their deployment.  That's perfectly legal reserve divisions by the core rules.

Agreed with the math.  I think the "fishy" part was the opponent deciding in the bottom of turn 1 to deploy his DWA units.  He should have made that decision and declaration before BftBG88 even began his deployment.

[BloodForTheBloodGod88]

regardless, (after he deployed the 5man squad / LR / Vindicator), on his first turn, he just plopped down Belial and his squad (without belial being on the table for a full turn to "activate" the beacon) and then threw down another 2 squads w/o scatter (saying that the 2 squads benefited from Belials special rule) which is outright illegal on multiple levels.

 

@squirrelloid: doesn't having all 24 models in reserve still break the 50% reserve limit rule? He pretty much had 80%+ of his army in reserves...If we are talking about a max of 50% of his units can be in reserve, he had 4/5 units in reserve...sketchy.

[Squirrelloid]

regardless, (after he deployed the 5man squad / LR / Vindicator), on his first turn, he just plopped down Belial and his squad (without belial being on the table for a full turn to "activate" the beacon) and then threw down another 2 squads w/o scatter (saying that the 2 squads benefited from Belials special rule) which is outright illegal on multiple levels.

 

@squirrelloid: doesn't having all 24 models in reserve still break the 50% reserve limit rule? He pretty much had 80%+ of his army in reserves...If we are talking about a max of 50% of his units can be in reserve, he had 4/5 units in reserve...sketchy.

 

Its a matter of what qualifies as a unit (the Land Raider and the Vindicator both count... if the LR is a dedicated transport, and thus doesn't count on its own, that's still 8 total units and thus 4 can be in reserves).  Independent characters also count as separate units for the purposes of making that calculation, despite the fact they can then join squads in reserve.

 

So if you had an 8 unit list that was 4 squads and 4 independent characters, you could in fact start with the entire army off the table.

 

But the reserve rules have *nothing* to do with number of models, nor number of points.  Its all about number of units.  And then they tell you how many units can be designated as reserves. They do not tell you how many must start in play.

 

There are a number of ways units can start in reserve without counting as designated reserves.  Independent characters joining units in reserves are one way, as is being deployed into a non-dedicated transport which is compelled into reserves like the stormraven.  Basically, there are a number of ways to end up in reserves without being designated as reserves, and only units designated as reserves actually count against the reserve limit.

 

(It is also currently unclear if the unit which the drop pod was purchased for counts as a unit for determining how many units can be reserved.  Technically the *drop pod* doesn't count, but the unit the drop pod was purchased for isn't actually compelled into reserves (they could choose to deploy to the table!), and so does count for determining how many units can be held in reserves, but then doesn't itself count against that number when placed in the drop pod.  And if the unit combat squads, it counts twice for determining reserve limits, and then *both of them* can be placed in the same drop pod and not count for filling that reserve limit).

 

Basically, the reserve rules are kind of a mess.

 

Edit: The using Belial's locator beacon is definitely in violation of the rules, and you should call him on that.

 

Edit2: Example

Let's imagine a list running 4x 10-man squads in drop pods and 1x drop podded dread.  if you combat squad all four 10-man squads, that's already 9 units right there which all count towards generating a reserve limit, but don't count against that limit when put in their drop pods.  You could add another 9 units to that list and start *everything* in reserves explicitly.  And that's before even factoring in independent characters joining squads. 

[DarkGuard]

Wait, I just realised people were arguing about whether DW Terminators should be counted for reserve limit when I posted an official GW FAQ ruling on the second post of this thread. Seriously? This is how GW intended the rule, why bother to debate the rule further and wording when GW have ruled and corrected any misunderstandings?

 

Squirreloid, I can only assume you are reading too far into the rules. Some of GW's rules don't work, and you need to look further into them. Some work on surface level, but scratch deeper and they start to struggle. Reserves is one of them, best to not look too deep into them.

 

Remember, we may discuss RAW here on OR, but lets not do so blindly. Apply and discuss it where needed. It isn't needed here, we have clear rule interpretations and FAQs, the original question was answered about 20 posts ago, no need to keep going on about it.

[BloodForTheBloodGod88]

my initial concern was over the fact of my opponent using deathwing assault to deepstrike 2 additional squads of terminators on top of his 9man Belial "deathstar" squad at the beginning of his turn 1 *without* having belial on the board for 1 full turn to "activate" his beacon.  So please tell me if the following is true: 1)  Belial must be on the board for 1 full turn to activate his beacon 2) Only the squad that Belial has joined (or is joining?) may benefit from his beacon 3) No other units (besides Belials) may benefit from his beacon.