Deathwing Deepstrike Rules

[Squirrelloid]

Wait, I just realised people were arguing about whether DW Terminators should be counted for reserve limit when I posted an official GW FAQ ruling on the second post of this thread. Seriously? This is how GW intended the rule, why bother to debate the rule further and wording when GW have ruled and corrected any misunderstandings?

 

Squirreloid, I can only assume you are reading too far into the rules. Some of GW's rules don't work, and you need to look further into them. Some work on surface level, but scratch deeper and they start to struggle. Reserves is one of them, best to not look too deep into them.

 

Remember, we may discuss RAW here on OR, but lets not do so blindly. Apply and discuss it where needed. It isn't needed here, we have clear rule interpretations and FAQs, the original question was answered about 20 posts ago, no need to keep going on about it.

 

No one has argued Terminators don't count for filling the reserve limit or for helping determine it.  Argument was made that, for codices which still have the TDA rule where they 'may always start in reserves', they may overfill the reserve limit (so long as only TDA models are designated as reserves).  They still count for filling it in this interpretation, they just don't care how full it is for determining if TDA squads are legally in reserve.  But that is well-and-truly beyond the point at this point, since apparently C:DA don't have that wording.  (Probably the only TDA who don't have that wording...).

 

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I totally disagree about not examining rules deeply.  Either they function as written or they don't, and edge cases are going to come up.

 

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BftBG88:

1) Locator Beacons only work if they started on the table that turn

2) Its not his beacon his squad benefits from when he DSes in, its his special rule Tactical Precision.  And yes, his squad benefits so long as they all have the Inner Circle special rule.

3) Other units may use a locator beacon if it is working, that is, if it started the turn on the table, no matter which model owns the locator beacon.  (This is not true the turn the locator beacon carrying unit deepstrikes).

[Leonaides]

1- the beacon is always active, but cannot be used on the turn when he himself arrives from reserves. That's a rule applying to all beacons, not just belial. 2-any squad can use his beacon, but only the squad he is a part of can arrive without a beacon and not have to roll for scatter. That's part of his tactical precision rule, nothing to do with beacons. 3- as above, you are confusing his beacon which is a piece of wargear with his tactical precision rule. Any squad can use his beacon provided he was already on the board at the start of the turn, but only him, and the specific unit he is attached to, can arrive without scattering.

[DarkGuard]

 

Wait, I just realised people were arguing about whether DW Terminators should be counted for reserve limit when I posted an official GW FAQ ruling on the second post of this thread. Seriously? This is how GW intended the rule, why bother to debate the rule further and wording when GW have ruled and corrected any misunderstandings?

 

Squirreloid, I can only assume you are reading too far into the rules. Some of GW's rules don't work, and you need to look further into them. Some work on surface level, but scratch deeper and they start to struggle. Reserves is one of them, best to not look too deep into them.

 

Remember, we may discuss RAW here on OR, but lets not do so blindly. Apply and discuss it where needed. It isn't needed here, we have clear rule interpretations and FAQs, the original question was answered about 20 posts ago, no need to keep going on about it.

 

No one has argued Terminators don't count for filling the reserve limit or for helping determine it.  Argument was made that, for codices which still have the TDA rule where they 'may always start in reserves', they may overfill the reserve limit (so long as only TDA models are designated as reserves).  They still count for filling it in this interpretation, they just don't care how full it is for determining if TDA squads are legally in reserve.  But that is well-and-truly beyond the point at this point, since apparently C:DA don't have that wording.  (Probably the only TDA who don't have that wording...).

 

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I totally disagree about not examining rules deeply.  Either they function as written or they don't, and edge cases are going to come up.

 

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BftBG88:

1) Locator Beacons only work if they started on the table that turn

2) Its not his beacon his squad benefits from when he DSes in, its his special rule Tactical Precision.  And yes, his squad benefits so long as they all have the Inner Circle special rule.

3) Other units may use a locator beacon if it is working, that is, if it started the turn on the table, no matter which model owns the locator beacon.  (This is not true the turn the locator beacon carrying unit deepstrikes).

 

And as many people (including myself if I had time) have argued against you using valid RAW arguments and precedence set from the FAQ. Don't worry, I've not got my mod tin hat on when I say this, but it just seems like a pointless waste of time to me, especially as if GW do FAQ this issue with older Codices, they will rule the same way as C:DA.

 

I agree with all your responses to Belial's rules, although do remember it's a teleport homer, not  a locator beacon. ;)

[Cactus]

Its a matter of what qualifies as a unit (the Land Raider and the Vindicator both count... if the LR is a dedicated transport, and thus doesn't count on its own, that's still 8 total units and thus 4 can be in reserves).  Independent characters also count as separate units for the purposes of making that calculation, despite the fact they can then join squads in reserve.

 

So if you had an 8 unit list that was 4 squads and 4 independent characters, you could in fact start with the entire army off the table.

 

But the reserve rules have *nothing* to do with number of models, nor number of points.  Its all about number of units.  And then they tell you how many units can be designated as reserves. They do not tell you how many must start in play.

 

There are a number of ways units can start in reserve without counting as designated reserves.  Independent characters joining units in reserves are one way, as is being deployed into a non-dedicated transport which is compelled into reserves like the stormraven.  Basically, there are a number of ways to end up in reserves without being designated as reserves, and only units designated as reserves actually count against the reserve limit.

 

Whoah there Squirrelloid, I think you're mistaken on independent characters. Specifically your second paragraph.

 

Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not.

 

It then goes to say you must specify if any ICs in reserve are joining a unit and that if they do the unit and attached IC arrive together. This does not allow independent characters to circumvent the 50% rule. However joining a unit mounted in a flyer or drop pod would allow you to do so, as per page 10 of the FAQ v1.4.

[Squirrelloid]

 

Its a matter of what qualifies as a unit (the Land Raider and the Vindicator both count... if the LR is a dedicated transport, and thus doesn't count on its own, that's still 8 total units and thus 4 can be in reserves).  Independent characters also count as separate units for the purposes of making that calculation, despite the fact they can then join squads in reserve.

 

So if you had an 8 unit list that was 4 squads and 4 independent characters, you could in fact start with the entire army off the table.

 

But the reserve rules have *nothing* to do with number of models, nor number of points.  Its all about number of units.  And then they tell you how many units can be designated as reserves. They do not tell you how many must start in play.

 

There are a number of ways units can start in reserve without counting as designated reserves.  Independent characters joining units in reserves are one way, as is being deployed into a non-dedicated transport which is compelled into reserves like the stormraven.  Basically, there are a number of ways to end up in reserves without being designated as reserves, and only units designated as reserves actually count against the reserve limit.

 

Whoah there Squirrelloid, I think you're mistaken on independent characters. Specifically your second paragraph.

 

>Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not.

 

It then goes to say you must specify if any ICs in reserve are joining a unit and that if they do the unit and attached IC arrive together. This does not allow independent characters to circumvent the 50% rule. However joining a unit mounted in a flyer or drop pod would allow you to do so, as per page 10 of the FAQ v1.4.

 

 

You are mistaking text which allows you to specifically do something as *forbidding* something.

 

The IC character rules on p39 allow an IC to join a squad in reserve *without limit* and regardless of whether he is declared as reserves or not, and clearly implying it can happen during deployment since its an alternative to deploying into coherency with a squad.

 

The text you're referring to allows an IC in reserve to declare it is joining a squad.  It puts no limits on what an IC not designated as a reserve can do.

 

As such, there is no text forbidding an IC who is deploying from joining a squad in reserves, and there is clear permission to do so on p39.  The only reason for the note about ICs held in reserves is  because, as they do not deploy, they wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to declare they were joining a unit.  Whereas ICs who are deploying can explicitly declare they are joining any unit, even a unit in reserves, as part of their IC rules.

[Cactus]

I respectfully disagree.

 

 

Joining and leaving a unit

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

 

 

...Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

 

First, he must specify to the opponent which if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together.

 

I believe that the text on page 39 implicitly requires the reader to refer to the reserves rules on page 124. Page 124 gives permission for ICs left in reserve to join a unit in reserve, not for any IC to join such a unit.

 

Even if your interpretation of this is correct the example you give of an army consisting of four units and four ICs starting entirely in reserve is still against the rules. How many units have you deployed ( D ) and how many units are in reserve ( R )? Is R greater than the sum of D plus R multiplied by 50%?

 

[dswanick]

You must choose to leave an IC in Reserves in order to designate it as joining another unit in Reserves. Unless the IC is embarked on a Deep Striking or Flying transport, he counts against the number of units chosen to be left in Reserves. This is no different than models with the so-called "TDA loophole". They count, and you don't have permission to bypass the rule that you only choose half of your units to remain in Reserves.

[Squirrelloid]

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." (p39)

 

Only the unit joined is required to be in reserves, not the independent character.  And as an alternative to deploying into coherency, it is an option at *deployment*.  As characters in reserve do not deploy during set-up,  they need the separate text on p124 to be able to join units at all, because the text on p39 doesn't apply if you do designate your characters as reserves.  Nothing on p124 restricts the general options available to ICs.  It does not prohibit anything.  You're reading too much into that sentence.

 

Since he's not a designated reserve, he does not count against that number when deployed in this manner.

 

Number of units actually deployed, and number of units actually in reserve are both irrelevant.  The only relevant numbers are: (1) Total number of units not compelled into reserve, (2) total number of designated reserves (max 1/2 the quantity in #1).  Units which board transports compelled into reserves don't count against #2, but they do count for #1.  Similarly, ICs who join units in reserve during deployment do not count against #2.

 

No one reads the rules on throwing grenades and thinks that the model who throws a frag grenade as an attack can't *also* use that grenade during the assault phase.  (Or if they do they are wrong.)  Why would an option available to an IC who has been designated as reserves limit the options available on p39 *without saying so*?  The rule on p124 is a permissive statement, not a restrictive statement. (Edit: and if there was a limit to joining units in reserves, why wouldn't p39 point that out?  They had two chances to express what you think is true, and they didn't do it in either place).

[Cactus]

Squirrelloid, I've just read the previous three-page topic on this. If you don't agree with mine and dswanick's interpretation now it's clear that only an explicit answer from GW will convince you. I'll agree to disagree and bow out now.