Blood Angels as Allies?

[shortysl]

Simple enough question although it deals with opinion and not fact.

 

I'd like to collect a super aggressive force. I have Dark Angels for all round capability, Imperial Guard for pure firepower and Grey Knights for scary-special-rule-goodness so now I need an army to complete the set; one that unleashes its fury in Melee. All were collected because I like the backgrounds for them as opposed to simple power but I'm not so concerned about that with my last army. 

 

I've considered a World Eaters force, but I'd like to stay Imperial if possible and I also want a 'pure' force (Chaos Lords and Terminators can have Mark of Khorne but that doesn't make them World Eaters).

 

The options I'm considering so far are: Raven Guard, Black Templars and Blood Angels. Blood Angels are currently leading but I'd like opinions. Whatever force I choose will begin as Allies to my Dark Angels, hence the topic title.

 

Opinions Brothers?

[Dirrain]

Raven Guard is essentially Codex: Space Marines with a focus on ASM. Don't bother as Blood Angels do assault troops better. 

 

As for BT and BA, it depends on what you'd want in your army. BT excel in crossing the field in LRCs/hordes of crusader squads and have pretty crazy HQs for dueling. BA excel in either fast mech lists, hordes of assault troops (I have a list at 2000 points, DA and BA for fun with 100 tactical/assault marines and 2 librarians) or deep striking fun with DC/Stormravens and Vanguard Vets. 

 

I am working towards a Angels of Death list where the BA are the hammer units of DC in Stormravens or Vanguard Vets while I deepstrike in DW as the anvil with bikes running around to provide scoring troops. 

 

Fluff wise, the BT and DA have a little thing going on with the ophidium gulf incident but i'm not sure if the BT chapter as a whole knows about that incident. RG and DA might have some conflict as both chapters are secretive and both rely on their own tactics without much consultation. But as the DA are renowned for stoic defense while RG are famous for lightning assaults it would be interesting to see how the list would play out. That and Kayvaan Shrike is a total badass. BA and DA are, to the best of my knowledge, great pals. Can't remember any piece of fluff that describes them as being at odds with each other. 

 

Hope that helps a little!

[shortysl]

Raven Guard is essentially Codex: Space Marines with a focus on ASM. Don't bother as Blood Angels do assault troops better.

As for BT and BA, it depends on what you'd want in your army. BT excel in crossing the field in LRCs/hordes of crusader squads and have pretty crazy HQs for dueling. BA excel in either fast mech lists, hordes of assault troops (I have a list at 2000 points, DA and BA for fun with 100 tactical/assault marines and 2 librarians) or deep striking fun with DC/Stormravens and Vanguard Vets.

I am working towards a Angels of Death list where the BA are the hammer units of DC in Stormravens or Vanguard Vets while I deepstrike in DW as the anvil with bikes running around to provide scoring troops.

Fluff wise, the BT and DA have a little thing going on with the ophidium gulf incident but i'm not sure if the BT chapter as a whole knows about that incident. RG and DA might have some conflict as both chapters are secretive and both rely on their own tactics without much consultation. But as the DA are renowned for stoic defense while RG are famous for lightning assaults it would be interesting to see how the list would play out. That and Kayvaan Shrike is a total badass. BA and DA are, to the best of my knowledge, great pals. Can't remember any piece of fluff that describes them as being at odds with each other.

Hope that helps a little!

Land Raiders I can do with my Dark Angels, so I don't need those; can't believe I didn't think of the Ophidium Gulf incident when considering Allies .

That Angels of Death list sounds amazing though; I'd love to see that in action. I have been leaning toward Blood Angels; they are the most brutally straightforward of the Chapters I'm considering and that's essentially what I'm after; a force that scares the bejeesus out of my opponent (not that the Dark Angels are kitty cats). Just thought I'd put the question out there to some of my brothers who have a greater breadth of experience than I.

[Aegnor]

Make them Fleshtearers rather than "normal" Blood Angels.

[shortysl]

Make them Fleshtearers rather than "normal" Blood Angels.

I would but a good friend of mine runs Flesh Tearers so I want to keep a difference.).

[Dirrain]

Well the BA have plenty of successor chapters so you can pick and choose. 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Angels#.UZDFfLX-GK8 gives you the list of known successor chapters, go and have a look and see which colour scheme suits you. Or you could come up with your own successor chapter! 

 

I went for BA/DA cause there are so many combinations we can do.

Fast vindicators (BA) with a biker techmarine and PFG (DA) while DW DS in and mess with you from behind? Yes please!

Drop podding furiosos/sternguard while black knights/RAS run amok in midfield? Hooray!

Fully mech BA/DA force with PFGs/Shield of Sanguinius? Awesome.

100 tactical/assault marines on field? Never thought MARINES could be a horde army eh?

Dakkapole gunline/LRCs with BA fast vehicle or DC support? 100+ bolter shots and flamestorm cannons with 4++!

Azrael with a maxed out squad of DC - 4++ with relentless and FnP? beat.

So many possibilities....

[Morticon]

As  much of a BA groupie as most of you know I am, I honestly believe that the DA dex offers an incredible scope for different builds that far exceeds the BA.  I really think its one of the nicest SM dexs made to date.  With that said, I think that BA fit REALLY nicely into the DA mix of things.

 

BA suffer from having sub-par scoring Troops when cost is considered.  DA really take care of that.  Where they do excel however is in reasonably priced elite/killy units.  

 

The Baal pred, the Storm Raven, Mephiston, DC, Frag-noughts, Snippy-noughts and fast vindicators are all great additions to a DA army.

 

For troops, id look into either DC as your sole BA troop unit.  I would also consider looking into 1 or 2x 5man Razorback Assault marine squads.  Its 10 points more than the DA equiv, but you get fast razors which make a heck of a lot of difference.  

 

HQ - Mephy sells the beatstick that you may miss in some lists.  

ELITE - corbulo can tank like nobodies business and makes a great addition to a pod DC squad.  

The go to unit in elites however is definitely the Frag Dread in pod.  Really great alpha-strike/first blood unit.  The next best on the list is the snippy dread which works excellently when used with the Raven.  Third down on the list is the Stern-pod squad.

 

FAST - "lol" - you're DA.  The only thing we can offer here is really the Baal. But with 10shots a turn at 6" - it really does a lot of heavy lifting.

HEAVY - The Raven as go-to choice.  Vindicators a distant second. 

 

If you rock a jumpy DA libby, then his divination powers can work quite nicely on a 10man scoring jump squad, but unless they have a priest in the mix as well, I dont rate them that highly. And if they do, then you're looking at almost 400 points for that squad - great scoring unit- but not sure its better than say 8 scoring terms.

 

 

Hope that helps!

[shortysl]

Thank you everyone, the responses are appreciated. Morticon, that rundown is great. Think i'm certainly going to add some scions of Sanguinius to my collection. Of course, if the fluff ever sees the Angels divided, i'll be sticking to the sons of the Lion ;-)

[Brother Immolator]

Raven Guard is essentially Codex: Space Marines with a focus on ASM. Don't bother as Blood Angels do assault troops better.

As for BT and BA, it depends on what you'd want in your army. BT excel in crossing the field in LRCs/hordes of crusader squads and have pretty crazy HQs for dueling. BA excel in either fast mech lists, hordes of assault troops (I have a list at 2000 points, DA and BA for fun with 100 tactical/assault marines and 2 librarians) or deep striking fun with DC/Stormravens and Vanguard Vets.

I am working towards a Angels of Death list where the BA are the hammer units of DC in Stormravens or Vanguard Vets while I deepstrike in DW as the anvil with bikes running around to provide scoring troops.

Fluff wise, the BT and DA have a little thing going on with the ophidium gulf incident but i'm not sure if the BT chapter as a whole knows about that incident. RG and DA might have some conflict as both chapters are secretive and both rely on their own tactics without much consultation. But as the DA are renowned for stoic defense while RG are famous for lightning assaults it would be interesting to see how the list would play out. That and Kayvaan Shrike is a total badass. BA and DA are, to the best of my knowledge, great pals. Can't remember any piece of fluff that describes them as being at odds with each other.

Hope that helps a little!

And according to the new codex we openly shot them for refusing to handle another traitor...I wonder where the heck they found them all the time.

Are you set on starting another marine force though? I would consider it a tad bit boring to be honest

[Tiger9gamer]

Can we see that list, darrin? :D

[shortysl]

Brother Immolator: I get what you're saying; my Guard came about because I didn't want another Marine army but short of Orks, I can't think of an army that has the melee brutality or focus I'm looking for.

[Dirrain]

Can we see that list, darrin?

I assume you mean my DC heavy BA/Gunline DW list? I have a couple where I swap out the gunline DA for DW terminators. I'll post both when I get back home. But they're very much works in progress and might not be competitive. But they are hella fun. Keyword of my lists - Annihilation is ALWAYS a condition! =)

@ shortysl - BT are ridiculous in melee. My meta has a ridiculously good BT player. He trashes my BA hands down! My 10 man DC squad with 3 power weapons charges his 20 man crusader squad with his marshal and... I get wiped. golly gee? But it's awesome seeing Mephiston duel with a decked out Emperor's Champion. Heh.

But if you're looking for melee brutality that isn't SMs, consider orks, chaos, chaos daemons and space bugs? If you wanna remain imperial the Grey Knights are pretty good as well.

[Dirrain]

Alright. I have a couple lists, first one is a shooty gunline DA with DC/Fragioso dropping in to mess things up. Second list (My preferred) is DW/RW/DC combo.

 

Gunline List (2000)

 

Primary Detachment - DA (1155)

 

Librarian - ML 1, Bolt pistol, Force Axe, Lion's Roar, PFG

 

PA command squad - Dakkapole, Apothecary, 2 x Storm Shields, 5 x Bolters

 

Deathwing Knights - 5 men

 

Deathwing Terminators - CML, 2x TH/SS

 

2 10 men Tactical Marine Squads - 2 Flakk missiles, 1 x Combi plasma

 

Allied Detachment - 845

 

Reclusiarch - PA, Melta bombs, Crozius Arcanum, Powerfist 

 

Furioso Dreadnought - Drop pod w/ SB, Frag cannon, Magna Grapple, Blood fist w/ SB

 

Storm Raven Gunship - TL Assault Cannons, TL Multimelta, Extra Armor, Hurricane Bolter Sponsons

 

Death Company -  11 DC, Powerfist, 2 Power swords, rest with Bolt Pistol/Chainsword

 

Idea with this is to camp the gunline on a objective placed behind LoS so opponent can't see. The gunline will rely on the PFG and LoS blocking to survive while the DW/DC move forward and hammer everything into dust.

 

Pros - Fun as all hell to play.
          Getting caught between a hammer and anvil of DCs in a storm raven, fragiosos and DW/DWKs in your backfield is not funny.

          Between the Fragioso and DW, should last long enough for the DC to drop in.

 

Cons - Weakass scoring troops. But then again, annihilation is ALWAYS a condition!

           Eggs in a basket syndrome. If you can kill the SR before it reaches I might as well concede. (Although SRs are incredibly hard to down)

           Takes time to build up. Bad reserves roles = Concede game.

           Terrible matchup against extreme shooting armies that can wipe the fragioso/DW off the table before SR comes in (DAMN YOU TAU).

           One Helchicken will screw me over. 

           Anything with barrage might wipe my gunline out really easily

           Pretty much auto loss against castling shooty armies and flyer spam lists.

 

Things I might change - Swap out the SR (245 points!) for either 1 more fragioso and drop pod the DC in or 2 squads of drop podding DCs. 

                                      Include a Aegis Defense line for my libby and his crew.

                                      DWKs/DWTs are pretty interchangeable. Can swap around freely. 

                                      Scouts instead of tacticals.....? 

 

It's mostly a for fun list. This is nowhere near competitive. Too many cons. But I've tested it before (3 wins, 4 losses, 3 draws) and it is ridiculous if everything lands by turn 2. I wiped the table clean by turn 4. Lost to mostly shooty lists and a green tide ork melee list. Apologies for the looooooong post. I'll get the next one up when I can.

[cypherkk]

Until/if it gets faq'd. Azrail in a death company squad would be a nightmare and brutal in cc.

 

How about furioso dreads supported by s techmarine with a power field.

 

DA Scouts with some divine assault ba troops backed up by a Dev banner. Same same some anti armor drop podding av 13 ba dreads.

 

Fast baals, vindicators, and worth while fliers round out the alliance.

 

Basically, I'm thinking DA's grab objectives and supports, BA do the heavy lifting, and cause target priority problems in an angels of death list. Old school represent.

[Dirrain]

@cypherkk - I did think about Azzy in a DC squad but I'm not too sure about the rules for allied transports. If I purchase an allied SR with 11 DC riding inside, can I shove Azrael into the SR alongside the DC? Cause if I can... Happy times await. 

Furioso dreads supported by PFG isn't a good idea as you generally want your furiosos in melee. PFG gives everything including enemy models withing 3" 4++. Unless your positioning skills are that good (I know mine isn't) it's not worth it. Also DA do shooty dreads better (BS5 venerables ftw).

 

EDIT - Went to check the Battle Brothers rules. I can't embark allied units onto transports. Azzy CAN join the DC, but he'll have to make his own way there. 

[Morticon]

Sadly cant have him riding the Raven.

 

Im iffy about that banner btw - I dont think you're getting much value from it.

 

Also, it may work, but Im soooo nervous about infantry in the Ravens - when they go down, they go down hard.  Id strongly recommend a Furioso with snippy talons inside the raven instead.  If you like the DC, go DC in a pod - then either the Chappy, or a BA libby.

 

Id get points for the talon from the reduced number of DC, the reduced cost libby, and maybe even dropping the Command squad -potentially consider upgrading the DA Lib to Belial? So you can get those terms scoring? 

[Dirrain]

Thanks for the insights Morticon! But like I said that was my 'for fun' list. But I'll tweak it according to your suggestions. In hindsight the dakkapole really isn't doing much for me.

 

Here's another, more competitive list. I've also taken some of your suggestions into account and modified the list. 

 

Angels of Death (1997 points)

 

Primary Detachment - DA (1252)

 

Azrael - Warlord trait Brilliant Planning

 

Deathwing Terminators (5 men) - CML, 2x TH/SS

 

Deathwing Terminators (5 men) - CML, 1x TH/SS

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron (6 bikes and 1 MM attack bike) - 2x Meltagun, Combi Melta

 

Ravenwing Attack Squadron (6 bikes) - 2x Plasmagun, Combi Plasma

 

Scouts (5 men) - 5x Camo cloaks, 4x Sniper Rifles, 1 Missile Launcher

 

Allied Detachment - BA (645 points) 

 

Stormraven Gunship - TL Assault Cannons, TL Multi Melta

 

Reclusiarch - Powerfist, Crozius Arcanum, Power Armor

 

Death Company (5 men) - Either Bolt Pistols/Chainswords or Bolters, 1x Powersword

 

Death Company Dreadnought - Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer, Magna Grapple

 

Fortification - Aegis Defense line with Quad Gun (100)

 

The plan is to stick Azrael with the scouts in the Aegis line. Scouts get 2+ cover saves or 4++ from Azrael, snipe and fire missiles at targets of opportunity. Azzy will man the Quad gun.

Assuming I go first, the Ravenwing scout and turboboost to opportune locations and either hide from the enemy or shoot targets. Turn 1 DS the termies in using DWA, either use the homers on the bikes or just DS them into a flank. Hopefully they'll last long enough for Azrael's brilliant planning to bring in the blender DC dread, SR, MM AB along with the drop pod DC. 

 

Questions! - Azrael and a 5 man scout team in an Aegis. Is there a better way to secure my back line? What's the trade off if there is?

                    Should I trade the DWT for DWKs? Since the main purpose is for the DW to soak up fire while the bikes and BA wreck havoc and the Knights tank better.

                    The DC/Dread can easily swap places between the DP and the SR. Which is better where?

                    I feel like I'm lacking anti tank. Is it advisable to swap the Blood Talons from the DC Dread for Blood fists so it can put the hurt on tanks?

 

Pros - Lots of scoring troops. (7 scoring troops if bikes combat squad)

          The Aegis with Azrael and scouts is surprisingly survivable.

          Good mix of Hammer and Anvil units. Great target saturation as well.

          Placing objectives at midfield/in your opponents backyard allows bikes or termies to score even at turn 5

          Only weakness is Anti Air. But if you gun for my aegis the SR and bikes get to shoot your rear and vice versa.

          

Cons - Expensive troops. If opponents are capable of wiping terminators in one turn, pretty screwed. 

           Relatively fragile bikes. Entirely possible to lose all of them in one turn. 

           Really weak backfield. Almost anything can easily kill 5 scouts in an aegis. 

           Dependent on reserves rolls. (Although Brilliant Planning helps a little)

           Lacking serious anti tank. 

           No way to deal with massive flyer spam. One or two is fine but if fielding more then 2 aircraft will be hard pressed to stop.

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm thinking you should replace the one TH/SS terminator squad for DWK. Much bigger threat, in my opinion.

 

 

Maybe to help deal with anti-tank and more than two fliers, give your SR a lascannon?  

[Dirrain]

The TH/SS is there cause the guy with the CML might as well have a TH/SS to tank hits since he can't fire his stormbolter and CML together anyway. But the good thing is that DWTs cost about the same as DWKs so I can easily swap out one DWT squad for DWKs. Will try out a squad of knights in the future.

 

As for the SR, TL assault cannons are great at shredding medium/light armor. Plus rending is great for taking out tanks/flyers as statistically with 8 shots, at least one will be a 6 - add D3 to pen hits. Plus it adds versatility to the SR. If there are no vehicles around the TL assault cannons will shred infantry as well. 

[Cactus]

The TH/SS is there cause the guy with the CML might as well have a TH/SS to tank hits since he can't fire his stormbolter and CML together anyway.

 

Sorry, what? The cyclone missile launcher rule says very clearly that he can fire both weapons. In either case, why would you want the best-equipped member of the squad to be tanking hits? They should be tanking for him.

[Dirrain]

@ Cactus - AH! Wow I totally didn't catch that little rule. Oops. Thanks Cactus! 

 

As a side note, what am I gonna do with the extra 15 points? 

[cypherkk]

I was thinking a largish squad of dc with azrail walking. As a cc death star.

 

Also with the pfg the tech would be on a bike, he's there to help them across the field, once there he can race pdf to support others. Also, should they take some damage on the way there, he can repair them.

 

Since there are scoring, I think the terminators, at least 1 squad would be better served protecting back field objectives. Showering missiles from range and not too shabby in assault if approached, the the standard 2, 3++. Scouts are better for tactical use and teleport Homers for deep striking units.

[Dirrain]

Something else to consider - The Ravenwing Darkshroud gives ALL FRIENDLY units within 6" stealth. This stacks with the BA power Shield of Sanguinius to give all your fast vehicles a 4+ cover save in 6". So I can see a mech army working with BA/DA. Don't know how to actually make that list but the concept is there. 

[cypherkk]

What's the power shield of sag. On? My thoughts... Whatever it is put it at the noise of the dark shroud, BA vindicator just in front if that. Surround dark shroud with 5 land speeder tornados, or 10.

[Dirrain]

Shield of Sanguinius gives all units within 6" of the BA librarian a 5+ cover save. This stacks with the Darkshroud's stealth to give everything 4+ cover save. Could work as part of a BA fast mech advance list or like you said, fast vidicators with 4+ cover saves rushing to the opponent.