Sponsons - kind of rules, kind of modelling

[himkano]

So, I was playing a game Saturday against an IG player with vendettas.  He didn't realize that sponsons could not fire through the vehicle (so he would position his vehicles defensively, without sacrificing the shots that would normally go with the manueuver.  Eventually, I pointed it out to him, and showed him the graph in the rule book.

 

I was playing with a stormraven with sponsons.  He argued that if the nose of his plane blocked his lascannon sponson, than my sponsons are blocked from firing forward by the vehicle.  If you build the stormraven as intended, there is a bulge (to accomadate a front thruster) that blocks 4 of the 6 hurricane bolters in the front arc.

 

RAW, I really have no arguement, because if you say that parts of the vehicle block los from sponsons. While I am reasonably sure this is not the intent, applying the rules consistently seems to mean that the model is poorly designed.  Most of the time this isn't going to be an issue, but I would hate to be playing at a tournament and have this came up (paying 55 points for psybolt stormbolters is already dubious use of points, but to have that expenditure completely negated is no good).

 

Would modelling the hurricane bolters further out be acceptable, or would this be modelling for advantage? 

[Dread]

The model is just that, a model. If he is getting that literal then he don't need to be playing. If you want to get technical, where are the pilots legs in a storm raven, the forward guns are in his lap, Rhinos aren't really big enough to carry 10 troops, wave serpents either. Its just a game, GW doesn't build the models to scale just to play with. If they were then a rhino would actually be about the size of the land raider and the land raider the size of a bane blade. The front of each vehicle has the angle shown in the brb, hurrican bolters to the side and forward, turrets 360 degress.

 

As for modelong them away from the sides a little, well that is the cool thing about this hobby, conversions. Just make sure if you do, post pics.

 

Hope this helps

[thade]

You mean the little wing sitting in front of the sponson? Note that a simple attitude change (tipping the nose down and angling the guns up for instance) would get you around that issue. It's okay if the guns can't tip up and down (some people I know glue every piece down hard because they're sick of their models falling apart) provided they could reasonably be expected to do so.

 

Finally, if part of the gun can trace LOS to the target, the gun works: we don't fire each nozzle on a hurricane bolter piecemeal; i.e. if some of the boltguns can't see, it's irrelevant. If you can trace LOS from part of that mount to the target, the mount fires per the mount's profile. In your case, the profile is three twin-linked S4AP5 24" rapid-fire shots (so six at 12").

 

This level of argument at a table disappoints me. No, your guns can't shoot through your tank's body; but carrying that to an extreme in response really just strikes me as "Oh yeah?! Well take this!" Maybe that's not the attitude your opponent really has (I hope it's not) but I've encountered the like before. That kind of approach to the game really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

[Justicar Enethys]

This kind of thing frustrates me - and with this example specifically I've had my own issues.

 

In my Codex SM army I had 2 Stormtalons, but instead of their TL Assault Cannon chin mounts - I got 2 Punisher Cannons from my IG playing housemate and mounted one of them on each Storm Talon instead. Now, I no longer play my Space Marine army at all, so I took those mounted Punisher Cannons (On the entire insert/twist chin mount) and have mounted them as my Hurricane Bolters on my Stormraven. It looks badass and many have complimented me on my conversion. It is 6 barrels (same as a Hurricane Bolter) and mounts in the precise same location. The chin turret movement on a Storm Talon allows for the same range of motion on my Hurricane Bolters. They move out 45 degrees instead of down now. It looks good and serves exactly the same purpose. It is modelled from GW parts as well so no issues there. 

Didn't stop a player at a recent Apocalypse game losing his **it with me because it meant I could fire forwards. He argued that no Stormraven could with their Hurricane Bolters and that I had modelled for advantage because the Punisher Cannon barrels are about 1mm above that thruster housing unit on the Stormraven. He bitched and moaned that I modelled for advantage because there's no way I should be able to fire forwards with those. I kept my calm despite wanting to rip the guy's face off - and it was actually the GW store manager who told the guy what a pathetic specimen he was and asked him to leave.

If you played against me - I would allow your HB's to fire forwards. Not across the line of the fuselage of course (Leaving a slight blind spot in front of the SR for the HBs) but forwards from their barrels, sure. And I would expect you to allow me to do the same despite the fact I chose to model my SR in a nicer way than is standard. Anyone who would disagree I don't find worth playing. 

[thade]

If somebody's nitpicking your model over a millimeter, I'd say they're taking this game too seriously. Really, our eyeballs and hands suck pretty bad, as a species, for measuring anything so precisely: the margin for error is optimistically half a centimeter...and probably much worse (in the order an inch) because, let's face it, sometimes from our perspective our opponent is moving an inch too far, when - very very likely - from their perspective they're moving juuuuust right or even a bit shy in order to avoid moving too far.

It's better to play the game than to be right about it. We have computer games for hyper-accurate (seeming) combat rules, broken down into very clear, discrete elements and tasks. Warhammer is NOT such a system, not even by design. It has more in common with old school roleplaying games than well discretized computer games: the story of each model, the experience of the battle, and the themes we all impose on our armies are really what the game is about. If both players agree on their interpretations of the ruleset, you can have some pretty precise-seeming battles...but in order for that to happen, you need either

• both players to have very, very good understanding of an admittedly complex and scatterbrained ruleset, or;
• you need both players to be chill and groovy.

Personally I think the latter is the easiest way to guarantee consistently enjoyable games. That really goes for any game system, but it is especially true of this one.

[Justicar Enethys]

Agree 100%. I would much rather lose a game but have a great time playing it with a decent opponent than win a game that even shaking hands with my opponent afterwards seemed a chore.

 

I appreciate that some people do model for advantage - and have seen some bad examples before (Flyers have provided some excellent examples) - but by enlarge I don't mind too much. Let's face it - if someone needs to be picky about such finer points of modelling to beat you - they didn't really win.  Things like the Stormraven Hurricane Bolters are a prime example.

 

I had one guy complain once because my LR Crusader had it's Hurricane Bolters (Are they always the source of the problem! lol)  mounted at the front of the LR. As in - the side door nearest the front. I told him that when building the model I had done it for practical reasons relating to actual logistics and not for advantage. That it got me an extra inch or two - well fair enough. It is LEGAL to do that. He challenged me and asked me why I thought it was logical like that. I advised him that troops disembarking a vehicle  in front of a wall of heavy caliber rounds seemed a little retarded. Far better to have the guns lay down cover while the troops disembark BEHIND said wall of death. If they were using the assault ramp at the front - better to have the guns closer to the troops and frag assault launchers to provide said cover. He still didn't see reason and swears I was cheating.

 

People like that - I just don't have the time for. In my opinion - they ruin the hobby - or try.