Deathwing Apoth.. why?

[[TA]Typher]

I've been painting some of my DW and have got to the point of painting my apothecary. As I sit here adding layer after layer of white (ugh..) I was wondering.. when would I ever use this little fellow? 30 points for such a limited model just doesn't seem worth it. Compared to the banner of fortitude he seems obsolete.

 

What I mean to say is for 85 points I basically get an apothecary for EVERYONE within 12 inches, while retaining a loudout that is light years better than the Apothecary.

 

In a DW army the banner is amazing. Retaining your low model count can really make a massive difference. Saving just 2 models can make the banner pay for itself and with a 12 inch range this isn't hard. I imagine that an apoth can easily pay for himself also, but such a stark contrast in usefullness compared to the range of the banner and non-existant load out options I think I would rather spend that 30 points on TH/SS for survivability.

 

The only way I could see the apothecary being better than the banner is if you used the DW command squad to deploy/DWA far away from the rest of your army. Hence, the apoth would be more cost efficient then the banner, but this seems like a odd idea, as it limits the squads usefulness if your plans change.

 

Anyway I've been painting and trying to wrap my head around when/if I would ever use this model. What do you guys think? Do you use a DW apoth? when and why?

 

Do you use the BoF in your DW lists? How useful do you find it? Would you eve take a apoth over the banner? why or why not?

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but 30 points seems like too much for a limited louadout/limited ability model. With such a low model count among the DW losing that extra bit of combat prowness that a regular DWT has seems like something that should offset the Apoth's point value to a more reasonable level.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, it would be nice if the Narthecium simply acted as a limited type chain fist, since that's basically what the saw portion is anyway.

 

I agree with you on the subject, I guess the option is there in case you don't run the SoF though and for fluff purposes. I have 0 experience running a full DW army or a DW Apoth though (but the model looks cool!).

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agreed; that would actually make it worth the 30 points, or they could subtract whatever the fist is worth on a 'nator from that 30 and make it a 5-10point 'upgrade'.

I prefer your fix Bryan due to the Comd Sqd having too few models to afford losing a CC weapon completely as Brother TA mentions.

I have not used one since the change and will probably not start anytime soon based on the sheer stupidity of the rule. Thanks JV[sarc] Keep working on those FAQ GeeDub, one day you'll get it right

s

[[TA]Typher]

I agree guys... thanks for helping confirm my quandary. I love the model, but hate not being able to use him without hampering my list.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Use the SoF or use scoring 'nators/DWK instead for power lists, if you just play friendlies or want to spend the difference between an Apothecary and the SoF on something else then, and only then could it make sense.

 

s

[elphilo]

Yep. The apothecary is a pretty worthless upgrade in a Deathwing Command Squad. Its a shame, I love my conversion I made :(

 

Oh well, perhaps next codex they'll be able to get to mix and match weapons again. 

[[TA]Typher]

Yep. The apothecary is a pretty worthless upgrade in a Deathwing Command Squad. Its a shame, I love my conversion I made :(

 

Oh well, perhaps next codex they'll be able to get to mix and match weapons again. 

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I converted my own model and have been dying to use him, but watching him punch people because he lacks a real CC weapon makes me cry.

 

Maybe I'll just use him in a game anyway just to do it.

[Aegnor]

I spent quite a bit of time looking for where the rule that explains the Narthecium counts as a PF in combat was. I'm sure it used to exist, but apparently no longer. Then I too became perplexed in the manner the OP described.

 

Guess it's just a nice model for now. Crazy.

[Biggabertha]

There's only one reason to field an Apothecary: because you want to take another Banner.

 

An awesome one is the Deathwing Company Banner that gives all friendly Deathwing units within 6" an extra attack. Getting the Apothecary to administer Feel No Pain then for 10 points cheaper than a Standard of Fortitude.

 

Why would you want to do this..? Well, as I've found out with the Standard of Fortitude, that 12" IS indeed nice but all of your Deathwing Terminators are packed a liiiiitle bit too close together. Makes for a fairly happy pack of Obliterators and Dreadnoughts with Plasma Cannons...

 

The other perk is giving Belial and the Deathwing Champion an extra attack at Initiative 5 and 4 respectively while still under the watchful eye of the Apothecary, so that's always nice for when you're being challenged!

 

Finally, is it legal for the Apothecary to carry the Banner..?

Too bad they changed the wording for taking the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield or Pair of Lightning Claws... Would've been nice to model an Apothecary with Lightning Claws or a Storm Shield..! At least the Apothecary can take the Heavy Weapon...

[Aegnor]

That's a fair point.

[[TA]Typher]

There's only one reason to field an Apothecary: because you want to take another Banner.

 

An awesome one is the Deathwing Company Banner that gives all friendly Deathwing units within 6" an extra attack. Getting the Apothecary to administer Feel No Pain then for 10 points cheaper than a Standard of Fortitude.

 

Why would you want to do this..? Well, as I've found out with the Standard of Fortitude, that 12" IS indeed nice but all of your Deathwing Terminators are packed a liiiiitle bit too close together. Makes for a fairly happy pack of Obliterators and Dreadnoughts with Plasma Cannons...

 

The other perk is giving Belial and the Deathwing Champion an extra attack at Initiative 5 and 4 respectively while still under the watchful eye of the Apothecary, so that's always nice for when you're being challenged!

 

Finally, is it legal for the Apothecary to carry the Banner..?

Too bad they changed the wording for taking the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield or Pair of Lightning Claws... Would've been nice to model an Apothecary with Lightning Claws or a Storm Shield..! At least the Apothecary can take the Heavy Weapon...

Yeah i suppose if u wanted to run a deathwing banner an apoth might not be a horrible option. I wonder if those 30 points spent on TH/SS would save more terms?

 

The lack of meaningful weapons on the apoth makes him drag the effectiveness of the DW command squad down abit, making him hard to justify in a low model count list.

 

As for the range, the entry says any unit with in 12" of the banner. So u could have a unit with a majority of it's models further then 12", but still gaining the benifit of the banner. I've never had a problem with having to bunch up to use it.

 

As for an apoth using a heavy weapon.... I don't think that is correct. The entry says a Deathwing Terminator may choose one of the following... The apoth has his own entry, so he cannot take a heavy weapon. Unless I'm missing something here.. He's stuck with a storm bolter and his karate chopping fist.

[IndigoJack]

As Biggabertha pointed out, taking the apothecary is just fine if you're taking another banner. I have one in my DWCS when fielding it with the BoS. 3++ and FNP makes that unit very durable making the bolters on the tacs very deadly.

[Master Avoghai]

And to complete what Biggabertha says...

 

It's not only the fact that you want to give another banner to your DW command squad. It's also the fact that you have given a sacred standard to another squad

 

ie : standard of devastation to your RW command squad for exemple.

 

The DW banner is good to compensate the loss of the 2PF A of the apothecary since it gives more A to the other member of the squad so it's a good way to keep the same offensive potential while being more protected... But I recognize this combo is only 10/20pts less than the standard of fortitude so... it's all a matter of choices and points limit.

[IndigoJack]

I'd also like to point out the difference in point value of the apothecary and the SoF is a bit bigger than some people seem to be letting on. A DW apothecary is 74 points, while a terminator in the command squad carrying the SoF is 129 points. There are obvious trade-offs, like the apothecary is a character, while a terminator carrying the standard gets a p-fist and can swap his weapons out. IMO, the 55 point difference doesn't make the SoF an auto-include in every DWCS.

[facmanpob]

Just one point to add......is there ever a situation where the DWCS will be fielded without a banner? If the answer is no, then that has to be factored into the cost aswell. Why? Let me explain.....(assume no heavy weapons or TH/SS for simplicity's sake)

 

DWCS with SoF and Champion -  310

DWCS with DW banner, apothecary and champion - 300

DWCS with apothecary and champion - 255

 

If we assume that we will always take a banner, and the obvious choices are DW banner and SoF, then the cost differential is minor at 10 points........12" FNP and no apothecary, or +1 attack and FNP for the squad.....whichever is more useful to you personally

 

If there is a scenario in which we will NOT take a banner, then the cost differential becomes significant, about the same cost as an attack bike or an extra TH/SS terminator in a normal DWT squad.

 

In summary then, comparing the cost of an apothecary with an SoF wielding banner bearer in isolation is of limited value, as it doesn't take into account the purpose of the squad in your army!

[Aegnor]

Which probably depends on whether you see the squad going off by themselves, or staying close to other units I guess.

[elphilo]

I'd also like to point out the difference in point value of the apothecary and the SoF is a bit bigger than some people seem to be letting on. A DW apothecary is 74 points, while a terminator in the command squad carrying the SoF is 129 points. There are obvious trade-offs, like the apothecary is a character, while a terminator carrying the standard gets a p-fist and can swap his weapons out. IMO, the 55 point difference doesn't make the SoF an auto-include in every DWCS.

The points difference is the fact the SoF gives you a FnP bubble while the Apothecary just gives a single squad FnP

Just one point to add......is there ever a situation where the DWCS will be fielded without a banner? If the answer is no, then that has to be factored into the cost aswell. Why? Let me explain.....(assume no heavy weapons or TH/SS for simplicity's sake)

DWCS with SoF and Champion - 310

DWCS with DW banner, apothecary and champion - 300

DWCS with apothecary and champion - 255

If we assume that we will always take a banner, and the obvious choices are DW banner and SoF, then the cost differential is minor at 10 points........12" FNP and no apothecary, or +1 attack and FNP for the squad.....whichever is more useful to you personally

If there is a scenario in which we will NOT take a banner, then the cost differential becomes significant, about the same cost as an attack bike or an extra TH/SS terminator in a normal DWT squad.

In summary then, comparing the cost of an apothecary with an SoF wielding banner bearer in isolation is of limited value, as it doesn't take into account the purpose of the squad in your army!

Conclusion, the apothecary kind of not worth it

[facmanpob]

I'd also like to point out the difference in point value of the apothecary and the SoF is a bit bigger than some people seem to be letting on. A DW apothecary is 74 points, while a terminator in the command squad carrying the SoF is 129 points. There are obvious trade-offs, like the apothecary is a character, while a terminator carrying the standard gets a p-fist and can swap his weapons out. IMO, the 55 point difference doesn't make the SoF an auto-include in every DWCS.

The points difference is the fact the SoF gives you a FnP bubble while the Apothecary just gives a single squad FnP

>Just one point to add......is there ever a situation where the DWCS will be fielded without a banner? If the answer is no, then that has to be factored into the cost aswell. Why? Let me explain.....(assume no heavy weapons or TH/SS for simplicity's sake)

DWCS with SoF and Champion - 310

DWCS with DW banner, apothecary and champion - 300

DWCS with apothecary and champion - 255

If we assume that we will always take a banner, and the obvious choices are DW banner and SoF, then the cost differential is minor at 10 points........12" FNP and no apothecary, or +1 attack and FNP for the squad.....whichever is more useful to you personally

If there is a scenario in which we will NOT take a banner, then the cost differential becomes significant, about the same cost as an attack bike or an extra TH/SS terminator in a normal DWT squad.

In summary then, comparing the cost of an apothecary with an SoF wielding banner bearer in isolation is of limited value, as it doesn't take into account the purpose of the squad in your army!

Conclusion, the apothecary kind of not worth it

Not quite what I said.....

the Apothecary may be worth it if you prefer the DW banner, or if you intend on not taking a banner at all. But the point I was making is that it is of no value to look at the specific upgrade costs outside the synergy of the rest of the army :)

[Brother dean]

Well, as I've found out with the Standard of Fortitude, that 12" IS indeed nice but all of your Deathwing Terminators are packed a liiiiitle bit too close together. Makes for a fairly happy pack of Obliterators and Dreadnoughts with Plasma Cannons...

 

 

 

Vindicators, Demolishers, Medusas, Colossii.  Mass infliction of AP2 weapons can be painful.  Once they get around the 2+, 2 saves at 5+ wont save the same...

[elphilo]

I'd also like to point out the difference in point value of the apothecary and the SoF is a bit bigger than some people seem to be letting on. A DW apothecary is 74 points, while a terminator in the command squad carrying the SoF is 129 points. There are obvious trade-offs, like the apothecary is a character, while a terminator carrying the standard gets a p-fist and can swap his weapons out. IMO, the 55 point difference doesn't make the SoF an auto-include in every DWCS.

The points difference is the fact the SoF gives you a FnP bubble while the Apothecary just gives a single squad FnP

>Just one point to add......is there ever a situation where the DWCS will be fielded without a banner? If the answer is no, then that has to be factored into the cost aswell. Why? Let me explain.....(assume no heavy weapons or TH/SS for simplicity's sake)

DWCS with SoF and Champion - 310

DWCS with DW banner, apothecary and champion - 300

DWCS with apothecary and champion - 255

If we assume that we will always take a banner, and the obvious choices are DW banner and SoF, then the cost differential is minor at 10 points........12" FNP and no apothecary, or +1 attack and FNP for the squad.....whichever is more useful to you personally

If there is a scenario in which we will NOT take a banner, then the cost differential becomes significant, about the same cost as an attack bike or an extra TH/SS terminator in a normal DWT squad.

In summary then, comparing the cost of an apothecary with an SoF wielding banner bearer in isolation is of limited value, as it doesn't take into account the purpose of the squad in your army!

Conclusion, the apothecary kind of not worth it

Not quite what I said.....

the Apothecary may be worth it if you prefer the DW banner, or if you intend on not taking a banner at all. But the point I was making is that it is of no value to look at the specific upgrade costs outside the synergy of the rest of the army

No I get that. But what I meant was in the way Typher posed his original post, the apothecary isn't worth it. Because for a few points more you get that FnP bubble.

[facmanpob]

ahh right, I see now :)

[Brother Immolator]

Shame really, one of the reason I got the greyknight terminators was the apothecary  bits. At least I chucked a libby out of it.

[[TA]Typher]

 

Just one point to add......is there ever a situation where the DWCS will be fielded without a banner? If the answer is no, then that has to be factored into the cost aswell. Why? Let me explain.....(assume no heavy weapons or TH/SS for simplicity's sake)

 

DWCS with SoF and Champion -  310

DWCS with DW banner, apothecary and champion - 300

DWCS with apothecary and champion - 255

 

If we assume that we will always take a banner, and the obvious choices are DW banner and SoF, then the cost differential is minor at 10 points........12" FNP and no apothecary, or +1 attack and FNP for the squad.....whichever is more useful to you personally

 

If there is a scenario in which we will NOT take a banner, then the cost differential becomes significant, about the same cost as an attack bike or an extra TH/SS terminator in a normal DWT squad.

 

In summary then, comparing the cost of an apothecary with an SoF wielding banner bearer in isolation is of limited value, as it doesn't take into account the purpose of the squad in your army!

great break down Facemanpob. Remember though that the DW banner only effects MODELS within 6', while the BoF effects UNITS within 12' inches. So in a DW army that 6 inches will probably only effect 1 units in most situations, while the banner will effect whole units that only need 1 model within 12 inches.

 

In a normal DW Command Squad that has an Apothecary you lose 2 PF attacks, while gaining 4 (if you don't take a champ). So basically your DW banner is only adding 2 PF attacks for 45 points. Sure you still have the three Apoth attacks, which aren't that worst in the game, but hardly game changing (no insta-death for MEQ and no AP value).

 

 

Anyway I think I have a bigger picture of the Apothecary now.

 

As a whole the BoF seems the clear winner here. While not totally useless, that margins for taking an apoth seems pretty slim. You could use some of those points on other items that help almost as much, while freeing up the rest for other stuff. TH/SS's can help mitigate damage. Remember you don't get FNP from strength 8 or higher, so the 3++ can save those models much more efficiently from those weapons.

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah facmanpob nailed it. The whole point is not which one is best (thats a bit obvious) but what are you gonna do with the command squad. Or more precicely were the squad will be in releation to the rest of your army.

[Biggabertha]

Blah, that really sucks if the Apothecary can't take the Heavy Weapon... That really bogs down the squad and completely skews things off - much better to take that storm Shield if you want better chances at surviving now.

It makes sense too, doing it this way, really makes you choose things as an ultimatum of going for cool looks or a practical army.

 

We all know that if we all wanted to win, hands down, we'd always field Cyclone Missile Launchers, Missile Launchers and Typhoon Missile Launchers - nothing else, lol. For their flexibility, they really are the bees' knees. But damn, if only the Terminator Plasma Cannon didn't look so damn stupid with the hand being OVER the heat dissipator... (though I'm assuming Terminator armour is well shielded...) then maybe we'd have a bit more than just cool fluff models.

 

 

I really need to try out the Standard of Fortitude a bit more against a less explosive and (blast) template happy opponent...