What if the Imperium learnt of Luther's treachery?

[Aegnor]

From a purely in-universe perspective (ie. ignoring that it would undermine the identity of the Unforgiven as an army), what would actually happen if the broader Imperium learnt of Luther's treachery?

 

Would the DAs and all their chapters actually be declared excommunicatus traitorus and purged? Because some of the old legion rebelled against Terra and were put down by their Primarch, albeit with some escaping?

 

I can see it would certainly cause the Imperium to regard us with more suspicion, but would they actually drive us out/attack us? We weren't the only 'loyal' legion to have elements that rebelled during the Heresy, although it seems other cases were very much isolated cases in their legion.

 

I'm just wondering if saying "10,000 years ago, half our Legion turned on the Emperor. The loyal side, who we are descended from, defeated the traitors, destroying our home planet in the process and we've been obsessively hunting down the remaining traitors and punishing them ever since" would get you labelled as a traitor.

 

It would be a pretty big undertaking to try and purge all the Unforgiven if they were pointing to their thousands of years of (moreorless) faithful service and saying "we just want to get on with killing heretics and xenos".

 

Some of the more ruthless things we've done to keep the secret might cause more issues... "So, exactly how many loyal Astartes from other chapters and Inquisitors HAVE you killed in the past 10,000 years?"

[Phoros]

I'd imagine that it would be something along the lines of "Right, so they rebelled, and you didn't. Given this fact, and how big a treachery half a Legion is, why the :cuss did you cover it up, given that the rest of us could probably do something useful with it?"

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The issue here is, who can tell what the Emperor and the Lion had in mind 10K years ago? The obvious answer is, the Emperor and the Lion, and they're not really talkative in the 41st Millennium. As we know from HH literature, the Lion had a knack of taking courses of action that could be viewed as treasonous, if that was what it took to get the job done. Some of these worked wonders for what they were supposed to do (Tuchulcha and the Night Lords, fatality on Nemiel to reinstate the Librarians and clear the ship of Daemons), some of these failed tremendously (handing over siege engines of doom to Perturabo, putting Luther in charge of the Legion's homeworld). To compound on that, any single Fallen has his own version of events, and degree of corruption, and most of them would be all too happy to put the blame on the Lion for Luther's treachery; and in a sense they're right, as the Lion -did- send him to Caliban, and -did- know what he had sent him into.

 

(PSA: I'm not a Dark Angel, I'm a university student; I'll be using "we" as shorthand for "the Chapter", so you can sleep with ease knowing I'm not a delusional individual that thinks he's a muhreen or something)

 

Take for example Angels of Darkness, the book. After it came out, a lot of people jumped to the conclusion that the Lion was a fence sitter, based on the testimonies of one of the Fallen. Perhaps a few diehard fans here and there and the occasional enlighted mind took it with a grain of salt, but transpose that sort of reaction into 40K, and imagine Astellan's account was all over the news channels (no doubt by the hand of a wronged Ordo Vanus =][=). What we'd get is Imperium-wide disgust against the descendants of the Legion, overbearing scrutiny on our activities present and past, generations of demoralized aspirants, quite possibly elements of the Unforgiven Chapters going rogue, and the very real possibility of outright declaration of the Dark Angels geneline as excommunicate; all this done by entities that are -not- the Emperor, our sole Lord and the only one we serve.

 

So yes, there's a very strong chance that things would go badly for our side if Luther's misdeeds came to light. In a time of complete paranoia, the thought that a Chapter (or a group of'em such as it is) may be treasonous is enough to declare a Crusade of extermination. And we certainly wouldn't be the first Chapter to be sent to the chopping block, some of them were sent for quite less even.

[facmanpob]

It would all depend on who in the Imperium learned of the treachery......the Imperium isn't a single monolithic entity, its a collection of a great many monolithic entities, all run by individuals and groups with varying sets of moral and ethical codes, and riven with internal disparity and politics. Even within the Inquisition there are individuals who would declare "Heresy!" at the drop of a hat and run around like they were in a Monty Python sketch......whereas there are other, more radical types, who might be more sanguine about the whole thing, especially if they could use the information to their advantage!

[Terrahawk]

I'm at work, so I'll keep it relatively short.

 

Right after the Horus Heresy the Imperium must have been very intolerant towards factions with a large amount of traitors in their midst. I think they would choose a "better safe than sorry" approach before everything else, and this would propably mean purging the Unforgiven because of the sins of the Fallen. Just to be sure.

 

Fast-forward to the "present day" of the 41st Millennium, and I think we can safely say that the Imperium hasn't become any more tolerant or trusting. Quite the opposite actually. So in my opinion, the Unforgiven have a very real reason to keep their secrets close to their chests.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also do not forget that the High Lords are already suspicious of Unforgiven Legion building as well. The fact that the Unforgiven do it for the purposes of hunting the Fallen won't matter a lick if the degree of coordination the Unforgiven seem to operate under comes to light. Silently thumbing your nose at the powers-that-be for 10K years isn't going to sit well with those powers. It would be Badab again despite Unforgiven protests of loyalty, but magnitudes larger. That's compounded by the fact that like the Black Templars, the numbers involved in any Chapter of Unforgiven may actually exceed the 1K Marine mandate, based on the Undisclosed Numbers for the Deathwing and Ravenwing.

 

The issues go quite a bit deeper now than just Luther and the Fallen.

[TrashMan]

I kinda think the Imperium would let it slide...the DA are loyal to the Emperor in the extreeme.

 

Not to mention that loosing the entire DA legion (since all of the descendant chaptes are in on it) and having it turned agaisnt you would be a VRY harsh blow to the Imperium...something the Imperium can hardly afford.

[Bryan Blaire]

I kinda think the Imperium would let it slide...the DA are loyal to the Emperor in the extreeme.

 

Not to mention that loosing the entire DA legion (since all of the descendant chaptes are in on it) and having it turned agaisnt you would be a VRY harsh blow to the Imperium...something the Imperium can hardly afford.

Your last point highlights why the High Lords actually couldn't just let it slide... facmanpob highlighted already that some factions probably could and possibly even would let it slide, but the High Lords "faction" must maintain its authority to keep it, and they are not going to let a Legion or larger continue to operate within the Imperium, seeing as they've forced every other Legion to break apart.

[facmanpob]

I agree with Bryan that it if the High Lords got hold of the information would be Badab revisited....only bigger....much, much bigger....

[Brother Immolator]

I was about to repsond to facmanpob about the highlords as well. The imperium might be fragmented and dissorganised to a degree (and a large one at that) but news of space marine chapters going rogue (badab etc) never failed to reach their ears and causing the expected,open minded, never fearfull reaction of: 'Destroy them all and let the emperor short them out'.

 

More so for the dark angels. What most people fail to realise is the mentality and tradition mire that the imperium is knee deep in. A space marine chapter is a symbol first and foremost, one created by the emperor himself. To have such a symbol of humanitys manifest destiny defiled and cast away, would mean total retribution. The DA been the 1st of the symbols created bear the dual honour/weight of having to be the examplars, the very best of the emperors chosen, the incorruptible. If the very first turn traitor what would one expect for the rest of them? Its symbolism and tradition to its core. The highlords would spare no resource to hunt down the source of this infection and then erase everything.

If it proves too difficult to erase (after all the DA are nothing but unknown to the masses) they can always arrange a fabrication.

 

The result would always be the same: The DA are weighted down by the very blessing bestowed upon them: Been the first. No laxity of theirs is gonna be spared and IMHO they know this and their subsequent actions after the fall reflect this short of mentality/knowledge. The scrutiny excersised by the inquisition making subject to continuous observation 10k years after the unusual circomstances of their dual loss, also in part reflects this.

[Raven Angel]

Guys somebody in the Imperium already knows; remember Grey Angel? Besides DA can always say they exterminatused their own homeworld. It only becomes a big problem if the Imperium finds out about the fallen still being around.

[Brother Immolator]

Guys somebody in the Imperium already knows; remember Grey Angel? Besides DA can always say they exterminatused their own homeworld. It only becomes a big problem if the Imperium finds out about the fallen still being around.

If things were only that simple.... :D

[Cactus]

Guys somebody in the Imperium already knows; remember Grey Angel? Besides DA can always say they exterminatused their own homeworld. It only becomes a big problem if the Imperium finds out about the fallen still being around.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here Raven Angel. Which characters from Grey Angel are i) known to be alive in the 41st millennium and ii) still loyal? Spoiler tags might be appropriate for this line of discussion.

 

If we assume that not only the Fallen but also the long history of cover-ups, deceit, extraordinary rendition and assassinations becomes known I think the current behaviour would be of more concern than what half a legion did before their planet exploded at the tail-end of the Horus Heresy. I agree with Bryan that the High Lords could not let that slide. The Unforgiven probably have greater resources than the Tyrant of Badab did, and are more mobile, but how the resulting open conflict would play out and who would take which side is anybody's guess. I expect it would last longer than the Badab War and would surely devastate a greater part of the Imperium.

 

Alternatively, the High Lords might try to keep the whole thing under wraps, bringing in the Inquisition and a number of trusted chapters to fight a 'shadow war' against the Unforgiven. That would make things more difficult for the sons of the Lion, who I believe would continue serving the Emperor in their own way, but to the Imperium at large the status quo could be maintained. Effectively the High Lords would take responsibility for continuing the Hunt, but with the loyal chapters now on the wrong side of the line.

 

Also, the majority of the Unforgiven do not know about the Fallen, or know less than the full truth. How will they react? How will they learn that the truth is out there? It won't be on the 11 o'clock news so the first they know could be when four chapters arrive at Mortikah VII to exterminate the Guardians of the Covenant. If they bother to announce their reasons for attacking will the rank and file of the battle companies continue to obey their officers?

[Master Sheol]

If the Imperium would find out the treachery of Luther?...

well they would try to destroy the Unforgivem... realising they are still a legion (there are some more chapters rumored to be Unforgiven like the Angels of Vigliance)... In addiction some chapters that are not so kind with the High Lords (in particulare SW that have some leaders knowing something about the fallen - Ragnar and Grimnar) could side with the DA...

in two words... CIVIL WAR...

[Raven Angel]

 

In Gray Angel Loken and Cruz learn about whats happening on Caliban. That means Malcador knows and that means the Inquisition knows. Based on the codex I figure the Inquisition just figured the matter handled after the destruction of Caliban

 

 

Like I said the Fallen are the problem know. Besides the Dark Angels aren't the only Legion to have problem.

 

 

White Scars do too

 

[Wade Garrett]

"Malcador knew something ten thousand years ago" is a rather flimsy foundation on which to build "Somebody in the current Imperium knows what about the First Legions dirty little secret."

 

And at this point it's not the existence of the Fallen that will cause the grade A ca-ca storm, but the amount of lies, murders, and other shady behavior the DA have been engaged in for ten thousand years to cover them up. I really can't see the Wolves siding with the Unforgiven over the Inquisition if that particular load of night soil hits the ventilation system.

[Dark_Master]

I really can't see the Wolves siding with the Unforgiven over the Inquisition if that particular load of night soil hits the ventilation system.

Not do sure, after all as stated some of the Wolves already know. Russ and the Lion had settled their differences and were on the way to Terra when Horus and the Emperor met. ( pretty sure that's why Horus took his shields down to try to end the conflict before those two legions turned up)

 

The Wolves have no love for the inquisition, and might have some sympathy after the issues with the Wolf brothers.

 

DM

[Brother Immolator]

The wolves don't know, I had that same belief but apparently after rereading said novel I became convinced that Ragnar didnt fully understand what was going on. Yes the Lions pride was hunting down some traitors of the DA. But nothing more nothing less (as far as the wolves are concerned). All chapters have traitors its no news to anyone.

 

I don't believe that the wolves (or any chapter outside the unforgiven at that) will side with the DA.

At worst it will be a declaration of war (I expect the Templars to be the first to rally to the highlords banner) and at best neutrality on the grounds of some perceived reason (cant do it right now because I left the kitchen on.)

Another chapter that will hound us is the minautours and that brooks no consideration as to why.

I would expect the GKs and the UMs as well.

 

I fully expect the inner circle even during those dire moments to try keeping the truth from the rank and file battle brothers. A few more lies perhaps such as the Highlords been ruled by a madman (it happened before durring the Reign of blood) and the unforgiven been loyal to the emperor launching their own crusade against the blind and corrupt to restore order. It is a plausible lie.

 

No matter what the unforgiven will be surely pressed against the wall. Even with all the rumoured spy networks and a legions worth of marines and advanced technology, one of the largest fleets and manufactory center, fighting against the other marines is a loosing proposition in terms of arms and numbers.

 

The only thing that might end this war quickly (relatively) is if they could maneuver the entire legion (highly unlikely) and quickly take over terra and remove the highlords.

[Bryan Blaire]

The more damning thing about Luther would not be so much that he and the Fallen are traitors, but that Luther is kept alive and semi-consulted as an oracle. Another issue, if uncovered would be that the Inner Circle consorts with what are apparently a super powerful psychic Xenos race.

 

There's plenty to condemn the DA with beyond the Fallen issue. Loyal or not, the Unforgiven (at least the entire Inner Circle) are heretics to the current Imperial institutions. Remember though, heretic != traitor,

[Brother Immolator]

True the watchers are more than enough to condemn the DA. As for luther, I cant believe that anyone in the current imperium posseses the means to reach so deep into the DA. But I agree that if it would happen it would be grounds enough for excommunication.

[Bryan Blaire]

I figure that might only happen if someone was already attacking the DA and managed to get into the Rock. Then if they found the chamber and managed to get in and find Luther, he'd just be the icing to say "See, we told you bad things happened here..."

 

The Unforgiven are somewhat in the Radical Inquisitor category, they do definitely questionable things to further their own agenda and support the Imperium when not otherwise disposed on said agenda.

[Dark_Master]

I figure that might only happen if someone was already attacking the DA and managed to get into the Rock. Then if they found the chamber and managed to get in and find Luther, he'd just be the icing to say "See, we told you bad things happened here.

And if they went any deeper would find the only living loyalist Primarch.

 

Imagine what would happen then.

 

DM

[Artemid]

 

I figure that might only happen if someone was already attacking the DA and managed to get into the Rock. Then if they found the chamber and managed to get in and find Luther, he'd just be the icing to say "See, we told you bad things happened here.

And if they went any deeper would find the only living loyalist Primarch.

 

Imagine what would happen then.

 

DM

 

I'd guess rigged melta charges in the Rock collapse the tunnels completely and squash whoever found it, tbh. Maaaaaybe not for the Lion's cell, which not even Azrael is aware of, but certainly for Luther.

[[TA]Typher]

If the Imperium found out they would rally forces to destroy all the DA, but before they could GW would serve them with a cease and desist notice, thus saving the unforgiven.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

It depends on who finds out and what actions they take as well as who is on the High Lords at the time.

 

Also, remember Tchulcha? Well, if we still have this device I can plausibly see the Dark Angels wandering into Terra with a whole Legion before anyone could react ;)