Crowe-Wing and a Question of Fluff

[AnImA8]

So I've decided I'm going to try and design a fun and fluffy Crowe list, and I had some ideas I wanted to run past y'all about fluff.

The Backstory: Crowe and his fellow Purifiers are engaged in skirmishes against the most corrupting of the Daemonic forces, or against Xenos or Imperial warhosts that have stumbled upon some of the most persuasive and malevolent artifacts known to the Grey Knights. Fighting alongside his more established brothers are the most recent initiates to the Purifier Order--clad in Terminator Dreadnought Armor to better ensure their survival in these most grueling of battles of will. He and the Purifiers watch them carefully: both to protect the initiates with all the loyalty and affection of brothers in battle, and to envelope them in a pervasive aura of cleansing flames so that any who fail to match the purity of their guardians shall instantly perish.

Finally, despite Crowe's renown for his indomitable will, the Ordo Malleus takes great care to observe his every action. An Inquisitor of the Ordo is dispatched on all of his missions, with the aid of five of the most venerable Paladins given to the Inquisitors care by the various Grand Masters. Just as the Purifiers watch over their kin, so too must the Inquisitor and his Paladins be at every engagement to protect Crowe and to guard the blade should he fall, or to kill him themselves should he show signs of acquiescing to the blades incessant whispers. Knowing full well Crowe's martial prowess, the Paladins are the only ones who can stand a chance of carrying out such a task.

The List:

 

Crowe: 150 pts

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: /w terminator dreadnought armor,

daemon hammer, psycannon, and psyker mastery level 1: /w psychic communion (or Divination): 110
pts

Paladins (5): /w 2x psycannons, 2x swords, and 3x daemon

hammers: 315 pts

Purifiers (5): /w 2x psycannons, and Knight of Flame: /w

master-crafted daemon hammer: 150 pts

Razorback: /w psybolt ammunition: 50 pts
Purifiers (5): /w 2x psycannons, and Knight of Flame: /w

master-crafted daemon hammer: 150 pts

Razorback: /w psybolt ammunition: 50 pts
Terminators (5): /w psycannon, sword, 3x daemon hammer, and

Justicar: /w master-crafted warding stave: 250 pts

Stormraven: /w twin-linked multi-melta, twin-linked assault

cannon, 2x hurricane pattern bolters, and psybolt ammunition: 255 pts

Dreadnought: /w 2x twin-linked autocannons, and psybolt

ammunition: 135 pts

Dreadnought: /w 2x twin-linked autocannons, and psybolt

ammunition: 135 pts

 

Total Points: 1750 pts

Total Models: 27 infantry, 2 tanks, 2 walkers, and 1 flyer

 

As I'm envisioning the list, basically the Purifiers and Terminators will move to clear and claim objectives under cover from the Dreadnoughts. Crowe will most likely be staying back to rear-guard for the Dreads and to "survey" the battle-field. The Inquisitor and Paladins will most likely Deepstrike to avoid getting instant-gibbed in the first couple of turns or may ride in the Stormraven if there's no Interceptor weapons and an opportunity to assault from it.

So what do y'all think? A question about a possible alternative is to drop the Terminators for another squad of Purifiers in Razorback, and to take a GM to lead the Paladins instead of the Inquisitor. From a game perspective, it's a trade off between more assault-capability, more durability, and TGS for the Pallies vs. more shooting-capability, less durability, and a smaller cost. From a fluff perspective, I can see the case being made that an Inquisitor probably does not have the clarity of mind or purity of heart that the task requires, and that a GM would fill this role better. Any critiques, or votes for either option?

[thade]

I'm going to operate under the assumption that we accept what little Crowe fluff we have as fact since, without it, the discussion is moot.

First things first: the Inquisition does not police the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights police themselves and everyone else. The Knights cooperate with Ordo Malleus, but they are not subordinate to them. They're allies that know of one another's existence, which - in this line of work - is valuable and rare. GK are Space Marines but not Adeptus Astartes: their chapter lies outside of the power structure, much like the Inquisition. (Really, they're basically an Inquisition force all their own in my mind.)

Purifiers are to the Grey Knights what the Grey Knights are to the rest of the Imperium. These are the guys that are entrusted with the really dangerous sorceries and artifacts: so dangerous that even most Grey Knights can't be near them, even under supervision. Among them, Garran Crowe is the most powerful, the most willful; that's why he's carrying around that horrible sword...because nobody else can be trusted with it.

Any Inquisitor that learned of its existence would need a very good reason to continue living, especially if he or she was "watching" over the sword. Inquisitors also tend to be a strong-willed bunch, but they aren't Grey Knights Will material...and they definitely aren't Purifiers. They can be corrupted, and the Blade of Antwyr would definitely be into that.

Given that the sword can't be trusted under the watch of even any other Purifiers - the entire reason Crowe needs to keep it on him at all times - it's odd enough to me that he goes galavanting around the cosmos with other Purifiers to do anything...he should be chilling on Titan just keeping guard over that artifact. That doesn't jive well with rule-of-cool though, so he's still actively taking missions. Missions where any non-demon (human, xeno, whatever) on the planet is killed long before the purifiers arrive, no doubt.

So, I honestly don't see it being fluffy for an Inquisitor to hang around with Crowe, or even know that Crowe exists, let alone that the sword exists. Any Inquisitor (or anybody other than a Knight) that learned of the sword would very quickly be eliminated. The Inquisition does not police the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights police themselves and everyone else.

That said, it's not out of the question: it's a big galaxy and it's your story. To make it believable, you'll need to construct a very powerful Inquisitor - probably a very old one - with a long, untainted history of working with the Grey Knights. I don't know how old...300 seems pushing it for an active Inquisitor (something will eventually eat or kill them in active duty) but the one strong enough to live that long or longer, still crusading, having faced and crushed Demons him or herself, is your Inquisitor. As a matter of fact, you might want to go the route of hinting very, very strongly that this Inquisitor is a member of (or at least qualifies to be a member of) the Illuminati. Strong enough to cast a demon out of him or herself would definitely merit notice and even a modicum of respect from the otherwise cold and distant Grey Knights. Maybe some of the younger/fresher GK muse that this Inquisitor could have been one of them.

Form a strong and lasting relationship between this agent and the GK and you could justify (maybe) their coming aware of the Purifiers and then - ultimately - of the Castellan and his burden. At that point I don't see any Inquisitor doubting the Castellan's ability to perform his task, unless - due to the Inquisitor's own experiences - they (claim to) know something of the Blade of Antwyr or the demon that lies within. Basically, form not only justification, but long relationships, meaningful connections between the characters. (The sword counts as a character; that's most important of all here.)

So there's a lot to play with there, but you have your work cut out for you.

I hope this is helpful.

[AnImA8]

Thanks for the help Thade! I didn't quite know the full extent to which the Purifiers--and especially Crowe--are kept secret and distant from Inquisition forces, nevermind the rest of the Grey Knights. Keeping that in mind definitely pushes me towards taking a GM over the Inquisitor since the fluff would be more flexible in its justification: a possible story could be made that the GM is actually a kind of a Purifier GM, which would allow me to build a better relationship between the characters.

Maybe I didn't fully describe this point, but the relationship between the "guardian" Paladins and Crowe I envisioned to be more of a pragmatic agreement rather than a dictatorial "policing" action. I suppose my describing it as the Inquisition being watchful of Crowe probably clouded this point, but I was more running with the idea that Crowe recognizes that he isn't immortal, and is humble enough to believe that even his succumbing to the blade is possible (I think that humility is a key ingredient to his purity, and helps motivate his perpetual vigilance). Given all this, a more detailed understanding of the backstory for the list is that Crowe also wants a back-up plan, a failsafe if you will, in case of his failure. So while there's a relationship of mutual suspicion between Crowe and his guardians, it's also a relationship of mutual trust. This again probably supports taking the GM more than the Inquisitor.

If we take this understanding of the relationship, then the only real problem I see--that isn't readily solved by a more detailed narrative--is the question of the very guardians set to protect Crowe potentially turning on him as they succumb to the blades machinations. Realistically this could extend to any of Crowe's Purifiers, but I think it particularly stands for those set to protect him. The only explanation I can attempt to offer is that all of the members of Crowe's forces are distanced from him. It may be a difficult argument from a practical standpoint, but even those who "guard" Crowe must do so from a distance for the good of all, and their plurality helps keep them in check as well--five of the most wise warriors and their attending "leader" support each other morally and watch each other carefully to ward off any temptation to take the blade of antwyr for themselves.

Do I understood your critique right? Do you think these responses are a bit more adequate? Feel free to keep on asking/critiquing! :)

[thade]

Crowe's role (really, the role of any Purifier) leaves very, very, very little room for him to have any sort of doubt; I kind of expect Crowe's conviction to be parallel to none, otherwise the one that surpassed him would probably hold the sword. :) "Purity" has nothing to do with humility in the context of the grimdark...that's a very medieval Earth approach to purity; Age of Chivalry stuff. Purity in the grimdark means "No demons allowed." That's not to say that a Grey Knight can't have doubts, of course, but the older and more powerful the Knight, the less and less meaning those doubts have, if they exist at all.

 

That said, Crowe isn't immortal and he's smart enough to realize that. He does have the whole lot of Purifiers at his back though, and he'd entrust one of them with Antwyr before any Grand Master.

 

I'd approach this from a different angle. Recall that the GK - especially the Purifiers - have license, resources, and power enough to use sorcery...the weird and hyper-powerful psyker rituals that the edict of Nikea explicitly forbid. What that stuff can do specifically is left to fan speculation, which gives a LOT of playroom. For instance, perhaps the Purifiers have learned that the GM/Inquisitor/whomever is "bound to the sword" or something; maybe they think via a recent forecasting ritual that the Inquisitor/GM/whomever may be able to do what they thought impossible: destroy the sword and banish that demon.

 

This raises a lot of questions, not the least of which being whether the demon is best kept trapped within the blade, which limits its mobility and freedom; unless they can actually eradicate the demon (which to my knowledge is also impossible, for any demon).

 

I think it'd be a very moving and somber scene where one of the Knights with Castellan succumbs to the sword's influence and fights him, forcing Crowe to slay him. We've actually seen something like this before: Boromir and the One Ring.

[AnImA8]

Well, I will contest that notion of "Purity" in the grimdark because it is prohibitively simplistic. Even if GW makes such claims about the 40th millennia's conception of purity, I'd still abandon that position because it creates characters which are far too one-dimensional. Plus I think that even in the codex there's evidence that purity means more than that: clearly the Knights' strength of character stems almost exclusively from an indomitable faith in the Emperor. Extending from this has to be a belief that it isn't the Knights themselves who are impervious to Chaos, but that it's the will of the Emperor, and their faith in that will, that protects them. This logic practically requires humility in order to be maintained, and therefore I think that humility is a necessary precondition for the "purity" that characterizes the Purifiers.

 

To solidify this point, if we assume that humility (and bear in mind this doesn't mean lack of confidence either) isn't an integral part of the GK's purity, then pride would be rife throughout the GK's psyche as the only warriors charged by the Emperor himself with defending the whole imperium against Daemons. That kind of pride is exactly something that the Blade of Antwyr could use to manipulate Crowe. Granted now, that could make for an interesting twist to create ambiguity as to whether or not Crowe is actually being manipulated by the blade, but we'll set that aside for now. So I think humility is a necessary part of Crowe's character, and that it's exemplified by the fact that he didn't take up the blade through some belief that he exclusively has the strength to carry it, but that the blade was placed in the care of the Purifiers and from the Purifiers to the purest among them. As the codex says, others would be willing to gamble that their will was stronger than the blades and its powers could be used for their ends without them becoming corrupted (pride comes before the fall), but Crowe knows that use of the blade could corrupt him and elects not to do so.

 

After having said all that, I do still think your approach of creating a dilemma surrounding what to do with the sword is pretty cool and I'm definitely down to try and work it into any writings that come from this.

 

P.S. I was definitely having the same visions of a One Ring-esque tale--though I was thinking of Frodo and Sam's bromance at the time haha. :)

[thade]

Purity can be defined that way, and - to be fair - there are certainly entire cultures in the Imperium that define it that way...even some medieval ones, complete with thatched roofs. This really still harkens back to classical storytelling (Arthurian legend-type stuff) where a character's in-born traits were the deciding factor in their chances of success. If they failed, obviously their piety/purity/grace/humility/courage/whatever was just not sufficient. These were all parables, intended to teach the listener that 1. those traits are to be valued and cultivated, and 2. failing to value and cultivate them will serve as the explanation for all of your failures. The grimdark isn't really about cultivating good personality traits though...it's about how bitter and inevitable the end is.

Honestly, I don't see a Grey Knight's defenses against demonic threats being sourced out of their personality traits: their martial prowess and willpower are not tied to easily identified personality traits. Recall that Grey Knights are not selected for anything other than psychic potential and possibly savvy. They're very thoroughly mind-wiped and then aggressively tortured until their will entirely aligns with that of the Imperium. You might see them to be kind of like warrior-monks (which I can sympathize with) but those monks aren't praying to the Emperor and they're not reflecting on humility or passion: they have a job to do and they do it.

That's not to say that they're automatons; far from it. One GK to the next is as different as one Space Marine to the next: different "hobbies" (when they're not castigating their flesh and chanting litanies of hate) and approaches to problems, as well as different approaches to one another. One GK might be your model of humility and purity; another might be really irritable and short-tempered. Both of them are Knights and both of them are well trained and prepared to resist and repel warp forces...but one is certainly easier to talk to off-duty than another.

If you haven't read A. D-B.'s The Emperor's Gift, I strongly recommend it. It's the best example I've seen yet of GK with character.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thinf is, the Grey Knights aren't really secret any more.  Nor are the existaence of Daemons.  Every chapter has records of encoutners with both the Daemonic and the GK.  The Dangle have even blown up a GK strike cruiser just to get at Cypher.

 

I want to echo Thades reluctence on Crowe.  That guy is eriously a fluff nightmare.  There is no way that guy should be anywhere but sharing a Stasis field with Guilliman or Dorn.  The GK would *never* let him anywhere near active fighting, on the off chance the only Space Marine in the *entire Index astartes* that can control the sword would get a random Lascannon to the face.

[thade]

I'd hazard a bet that not every single chapter has record of them; most chapters that encounter them politely submit their rank and file to the "as polite as possible" selective memory wipe. ("Most chapters" doesn't include the Space Wolves, of course. Seldom does really.) The higher ups in the chapter (the Chapter Master at least) is usually left the memory as a courtesy. But even if every single rank-n-file Marine knows about chapter 666, that's still a very tiny, tiny portion of the Imperium's population. Exterminatus isn't just for plagues; it's also for even the smallest demonic incursion anywhere. The Knights only insert (fluff-wise) when 1. the asset is too valuable to vaporaize or 2. vaporizing the asset will not resolve the problem, i.e. there's an artifact or a particularly jerky demon, etc. When there's no surviving population, there's nothing really like a witness. I'll grant you that the galaxy is really too big to clean up all loose ends, but the Knights are small enough in number and do a good enough job that even if a few million eye witnesses wander the cosmos, they're doing nothing more than stirring up rumors and fairy-tales.

 

Sticking Crowe in a stasis field would be no different from sticking the sword into lock down; he's holding the sword because it requires a proactive steward to deal with it and he's the only one fit to the task. I don't disagree about his wandering; that really can only be justified by "Rule of Cool". If that's good enough for the OP, it warrants some effort to help him breathe some sense and detail into it. We're always up for a challenge, after all. <3

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, if not a stasis field, then the Golden Throne mark 2. Or a Dreadnought Sacofigous. Sealed deep in Titan, and keeping Crowe alive for ever.

Even if he just sits in a sealed chamber reciting hymns of purity.

Letting him out is stupidity. Something the ultra pragmatic GK should never do. Letting him actually use the blasted sword to kill foes. Well, that's tantamount to corruption already.

As for Marines, it's probably because the lesser known chapters just don't have fluff. The Dark Angels, Wolves and Blood Angels all have memory of Daemonic Incursions. And I'm sure many others do (The Relictors just came to mind). I'm just not too up to date with the fluff for every chapter!

Hell any Marine Force that's every faced the Thousand Sons, Noise/Plague Marines or Berzerkers in combat (and this is nearly every Chapter!) has had face to face with Daemonic mutated influence.

Edit: If I wanted to use Crowe for a fluff reason, I'd run him not as Crowe, but as another GK, and make my own fluff up.

[thade]

Even if he just sits in a sealed chamber reciting hymns of purity.

While this is probably the only option that is both effective and wise, it's just not as cool as a GK running around risking something so dire in such a ridiculous fashion; it's what we have to work with.

As for Marines, it's probably because the lesser known chapters just don't have fluff. The Dark Angels, Wolves and Blood Angels all have memory of Daemonic Incursions. And I'm sure many others do (The Relictors just came to mind). I'm just not too up to date with the fluff for every chapter!

The DA, Wolves, and BA are among the original legions. They have their own long-standing records and very likely have encountered chapter 666; whether or not they have record of them of course I can't say for sure...but policy says they don't. While the legions are stupendously old (10k-ish years, that's a lot of candles) the marines within them are not. How many run ins have they had with the GK over 10k years? How many of them live long enough to remember? Who's to say?

Naturally marines encounter demons, but again 1. space marines make up a very, very tiny portion of the Imperium's population and 2. space marines don't mill about with the peasantry telling them about demons. Frankly, a space marine would just as quickly murder a peasant as a Knight would if he thought for a second that the peasant was a viable doorway for demons.

Edit: If I wanted to use Crowe for a fluff reason, I'd run him not as Crowe, but as another GK, and make my own fluff up.

This I can definitely get behind. I actually do this with the Draigo model and stat line. Counts-as is a wonderful thing; it's what gives us so much leeway to make our own stories up for our armies.

[Gentlemanloser]

If the space Marines know about the Daemonic, and aren't mind wiped, they why bother mind wiping them when they meet the GK?  As rare as Space Marines are, it seems silly an inefficient to risk ruining a perfectly good super soldier by mind wiping them.

 

It also makes me wonder about excommunicated/renegade Chapters.  If they've not devolved to Chaos Worship (or gene seed mutation beyond repair), why not just round them up and mind wipe them back into being good 'ol boys.  Just becuase the Chapter Master is insane and wants to follow the greater good, or thinks the Lords of Terra are the Lords of Terror, is no reason to up and kill all those that follow him.

 

I agree about the peasents of 40k, but who care about the peasents?  :P

[thade]

If the space Marines know about the Daemonic, and aren't mind wiped, they why bother mind wiping them when they meet the GK? As rare as Space Marines are, it seems silly an inefficient to risk ruining a perfectly good super soldier by mind wiping them.

A few points here. First and foremost, this entire thing is far more complex than that. Given the resources and the power, the Ordo Malleus would, in short order, eliminate any and all Imperium forces (loyalist and renegade alike) that have any contact with the demonic whatsoever; that's their job. Contact with the demonic presents a non-zero risk that the subject is corrupted, thus the subject should be eliminated if it can be. If it's just a peasant, that peasant is as good as vaporized upon discovery. If the peasant is somehow useful to the Imperium (i.e. they need so many ambulatory humans on Planet X to move rocks around) he or she might be "lucky" enough to suffer and almost total mind-wipe. Continue to serve your Emperor as a servitor, just like a criminal.

It's (as you point out) very different where marines are concerned: that's a LOT of very valuable assets they'd be wiping out; pretty stupid to kill them. Loyalist marines are incredibly valuable war assets, but their exposure to demons might turn them renegade. (That's really why there are Chaos marines in the first place.) They need to still be able to perform their jobs, which even requires them knowing *something* about demons (i.e. that they're dangerous and require more than a few bolter shells to the noggin) but not just how bad the threat is, or that the threat necessitates a secret chapter in unpainted armor doing things that are considered illegal and insane by basically everybody (using sorcery, holding demons prisoner, etc.).

So, why mind-wipe the the marine? Because it helps to prevent that corruption; because it reduces not just the psychic threat but the terror threat, preventing those that don't need to know how bad things are from knowing how bad things really are. It's also not a complete mind-wipe where a marine (or anybody that valuable) is concerned. It's *selective*. It's much more time consuming, much more expensive, and ensures that marines forget most or all of what they've seen while leaving them with more important stuff (training, chapter rituals, etc.) so they can continue to fulfill their roles.

It also makes me wonder about excommunicated/renegade Chapters. If they've not devolved to Chaos Worship (or gene seed mutation beyond repair), why not just round them up and mind wipe them back into being good 'ol boys. Just becuase the Chapter Master is insane and wants to follow the greater good, or thinks the Lords of Terra are the Lords of Terror, is no reason to up and kill all those that follow him.

Because those marines don't submit themselves to mindwipes? This is, like everything in the Imperium, contingent upon old pacts and relationships. Easier to kill those marines than "round them up for reprocessing". Frankly, any marine that goes renegade for any reason isn't a marine that loyalists would suffer to live; loyalist marines take rather great offense to that sort of thing.

I agree about the peasents of 40k, but who care about the peasents?

That peasant may make a perfectly good servo-skull; an asset is an asset. But yea...if a peasant gets vaporized, not many space marines lose sleep over it. Sad, no?

[AnImA8]

Edit: If I wanted to use Crowe for a fluff reason, I'd run him not as Crowe, but as another GK, and make my own fluff up.

 

 

 

I don't disagree about his wandering; that really can only be justified by "Rule of Cool". If that's good enough for the OP, it warrants some effort to help him breathe some sense and detail into it. We're always up for a challenge, after all. <3

 

So I think that, all mindwipe discussions aside, these are important points that I want to really drive at. In the end we can all agree that GW's fluff has a coherent "grimdark" theme that isn't very coherent in the nitty-gritty detail of it. This isn't exactly helped by the fact that the novels they have written are written by numerous different authors with different conceptions and interpretations of what the grimdark looks like.

 

To Gentlemanloser, I understand your sentiment to want to create your own character and fluff, but that is the point at which I see no difference between taking the same character/archetype and embellishing, or adding your own creative flair. Is there really a difference between creating an entirely new character and taking an existing one and bringing him to life in a way the codex description doesn't? I don't feel like there is.

 

And to Thade, I think that Rule of Cool is definitely our primary modus operandi here, and as I've said before I'm of the opinion that where the fluff is lackluster or contradictory, change ought to be embraced. Your point about them being mind-wiped and tortured is a good counter to the idea of them having more "noble" (if you will lol) personal characteristics, but at the same time it really doesn't coincide with them having much of personalities. Anyone who has had such alterations to them can't seriously have much of a personality left to ascribe a name to. So we can either settle with a highly restrictive notion that these warriors have been made clean-slates to make them servants of the Imperium's will, whilst still having a level of uniqueness that gives rise to things like the Purifiers--who are so unique in their mental fortitude that they are suspicious of even other GK's--OR we can say that this matter deserves the attention of our own creative faculties and attempt to "humanize" the Knights in a way that makes them interesting.

 

Though I haven't read The Emperor's Gift I have read some of the Horus Heresy series up to Fulgrim. I definitely have a long way to go, but I think it's a weak case to make that personality traits and characteristics aren't of vital importance to the way Chaos works, and therefore the way any true counter to Chaos works. Horus was turned because of his pride in himself and his legion, and the thought of the Emperor glorifying the image of the other chapters but not his own--and what would be the other traitor legions--was too much of a blow to his psyche. It was a deeply personal wound that Chaos used to turn Horus, as well as the other Primarchs in question. Likewise for the founding of the GK's (if you subscribe to this theory; I don't know if it's been confirmed but I subscribe to it), the High Lords took in the 8 surviving "Traitor Legion" Loyalists to found the Grey Knights because they proved themselves by the fires of actual combat that they were the most incorruptible of all the Marines of their time. And in many passages in The Flight of the Eisenstein it was in fact their faith that protected them from the forces of Chaos. All of these things point towards personal characteristics and belief in the Emperor as a "god" as being powerful weapons in the fight against Chaos.

 

Again, there clearly seems to be evidence to support either of our claims. So, since we do actually have the choice to pick between the two possibilities, do we: pick the option that portrays the Knights as beings wiped into tabula razas, destitute of anything but superficial personality, whose sole asset is their martial prowess; or do we portray them as beings who have clearly been indoctrinated but with the aim of giving them truly entrenched and deep-seated personality traits, whose greatest assets are a combination of both martial prowess and mental fortitude--devoid of "cracks" exploitable by Chaos. Both may be valid options, but the latter makes for a better story imo.

 

PS. when I talk of personality traits, and especially of notions of "purity" based on "faith" and "humility", I'm definitely not ascribing good traits to the Knights. The grimdark theme can definitely still be maintained by pointing out that "faith" for the Knights is still faith in an Emperor who cares very little for the value of individual human life, "purity" still entails exterminating whole populations to keep their chapter secret and attending to their purpose at any cost to others, and "humility" is still the humbling of oneself before the Emperor but doesn't at all suggest that the Knights are humble relative to all others--whom they deem so below their own importance that they'll kill in order to preempt the spread of Chaos. These traits are important drivers of the characters and how they behave, but don't mean that Crowe or the Knights are "good guys" ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

 

o Gentlemanloser, I understand your sentiment to want to create your own
character and fluff, but that is the point at which I see no difference
between taking the same character/archetype and embellishing, or adding
your own creative flair. Is there really a difference between
creating an entirely new character and taking an existing one and
bringing him to life in a way the codex description doesn't? I don't
feel like there is.

 

Oh there's a massive difference.

 

I could spend time and effort rewritting 'Crowe' to make him work.  But I would have to explain that to *everyone* who knows of GW's 'Crowe'.

 

Or I make up my own GK, and use Crowe's minis and rules.  He then becomes 'mine' in creation, and not a retcon/rewrite I constantly have to explain away.

 

Crowe's mini is awesome.  His rules, not so. ;)

[thade]

Anyone who has had such alterations to them can't seriously have much of a personality left to ascribe a name to.

You really, really, really want to read The Emperor's Gift, my man. It addresses this very question (the formation of identity around the utter loss of identity) and...you'll just plain love it.

[AnImA8]

Oh there's a massive difference.

I could spend time and effort rewritting 'Crowe' to make him work. But I would have to explain that to *everyone* who knows of GW's 'Crowe'.

Or I make up my own GK, and use Crowe's minis and rules. He then becomes 'mine' in creation, and not a retcon/rewrite I constantly have to explain away.

Crowe's mini is awesome. His rules, not so.

haha, yea but I love flapping my lips! I don't mind talking about why I think my version of Crowe is cooler than GW's

Anyone who has had such alterations to them can't seriously have much of a personality left to ascribe a name to.

You really, really, really want to read The Emperor's Gift, my man. It addresses this very question (the formation of identity around the utter loss of identity) and...you'll just plain love it.

Well you definitely have me stoked on it already. Sadly I'll have to wait until summer when I actually have the time to read it, but I don't mind waiting until then to flesh out these ideas

[Gentlemanloser]

 

haha, yea but I love flapping my lips! I don't mind talking about why I think my version of Crowe is cooler than GW's

 

:D

 

Besides, who doesn't love Elric?  Crowe should be the last Melnibonain (spelling? lol) weilding the mighty Storm Bringer!

 

Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch The Emperor!

 

Now I really want the new Eldar to get Exodite Dragon Riders...