Thoughts on Hadesdrake vs Hadesfiend

[minigun762]

Note: This isn't a discussion about whether a Hades Autocannon is worthwhile on a Heldrake or if the Forgefiend is worse than Obliterators or Havocs. It's just a thought exercise on the Drake and Fiend with the Hades.

 

The first thing I noticed was that both of these units are virtually the same point cost, which makes for a good start to any unit discussion. This means that it would be easy to swap them for each other in a list, assuming they are equally useful which I'll look at in a moment.

 

The most obvious difference is the number of guns. Drake has a single Hades while the Fiend has two. This would seem to be an easy victory for the Fiend at first glance but there are three factors that help out the drake.

1) Against flyers, the Drake is using BS3 vs the Fiend's BS1.

2) Being a flyer, the Drake has more options for shooting weaker side & rear armor.

3) Most significantly, the Drake can add Vector Strikes to its shooting.

 

All things considered, I would consider the amount of damage output to be basically the same. Each has areas where they take the lead (Drake against MEQs compared to Fiend against AV14 for example) but overall they're similar. What isn't similar is the tabletop presence each unit has.

 

The Fiend starts on the board and, assuming target is in range, can begin firing from turn 1. With a 7 turn game, that's a maximum of 56 shots coming from one unit. It's important to note that being on the board on turn 1 gives you the opportunity to destroy high value targets like enemy transports or fast moving threats before they can move.

The drake comes out turn 2 at the earliest and will almost certainly fly off the board for at least a single turn. Coupled with half the guns and we would expect a 20 shot maximum with 20 Vector Strikes if we're lucky. What the Drake gets in return is a significant increase in durability. Both are equally tough but being a flyer, the Drake is much more likely to survive incoming shooting and the longer you can stay on the board, the more destruction you can unleash.

 

To be honest, I don't know if there is a winner. I'd hazard a guess and say it comes down primarily to where you have a free FOC slot, what the rest of your list looks like and which model you think is cooler.

 

 

[nurglez]

They are in different slots, so I can see how you could compare them. I've used a hades fiend quite often, and use it alongside a autocannon havoc squad as my light anti tank/anti flyer fire power. I use my baledrake as anti flyer and anti infantry (duh).

 

When the codex first came out I swore I would never equip a drake with a hades, yet I am actually planning to assemble my second drake with a hades, for the reasons you mentioned as well as not wanting to run a typical double dragon list.

 

The problem is, no other weapon in our arsenal is as powerful vs the most common enemy we will face (statistically), meqs.

If force organisation wasn't an issue, I could see more drakes being run with the hades.

 

Forgefiends are better vs ground targets, due to having more firepower. They can also charge and fight in combat (although their stats are terrible, they are still av12). A forgefiend will pump out twice as much fire power at 36 inches as a hadesdrake at anything other then a flyer, so if your meta is lacking in flyers the hadesdrake will be less effective, and even worse vs infantry then a baledrake.

[TheDevourer]

The big plus on the Hadesdrake is its ability to fly over enemy tanks and blow them up by being able to fire at their rear armor thanks to having the 360° turret. It then puts out a Vector strike aswel as the Hades at the tank which should be more than enough to destroy any vehicle, save landraiders and Monoliths of course. The Fact that you can move into whatever position suits you to gain side or rear armor makes the drake very lucrative. 

The forgefeind on the other hand is fairly stative and has more shots, while being more vulnerable to damage, because it is not flying and sufferin as has been mentioned from being a ground vehicle, which means that you would have to offer the opponent armor saturation.

 

I play a hadesdrake as my third drake. So far I have been very happy with it. Not as happy as with the baledrakes, but I´d rather have something against flyers other than vector strikes.

[Chaeron]

Heldrake wins hands down for me each time - not saying Fiends do not have a poignant role to play, but a Heldrake offers something pretty awesome in our lists.

[Sception]

It does, but what else you can take with the same slots matters.  There's significant competition for HS slots, but most of them are going to perform vaguely similarly to the fiend.  Other than armor saturation issues (which can be remedied somewhat via ally choice) there aren't really HS choices that are going to so far outperform the fiend that you feel bad about fielding it.  A dakkadrake, though, for the exact same points and slots you could have had a baledrake, and while the dakkadrake is a tough flier with a decent gun that can positively contribute to most chaos forces that might include it, the baledrake is a devastating warengine that defeats entire army builds on its own.

 

The question really isn't "where am I going to put my hades autocannons" because the hades autocannon, while good, isn't an amazing, must have, faction defining gun.  The baleflamer on the other hand is, and there's only one place that you can put it.  So you should probably actually put it there.

 

 

 

 

Other point in favor of the hadesfiend over hadesdrake, if you're going to take hades at all: the hades fiend has big awesome autocannons that look devastating, while the hadesdrake has what looks like the rotating barrels on an infantry assault cannon circa 2000.  Just not as impressive visually.

[Xenith]

 

Other point in favor of the hadesfiend over hadesdrake, if you're going to take hades at all: the hades fiend has big awesome autocannons that look devastating, while the hadesdrake has what looks like the rotating barrels on an infantry assault cannon circa 2000.  Just not as impressive visually.

 

This is the reason I wouldnt bother with the Dakkadrake, the gun is piddly. Unless you replaced the head with a Hades-cannon.

[Fibonacci]

 

The drake comes out turn 2 at the earliest and will almost certainly fly off the board for at least a single turn.

Is this consistant with most people?  I seldom have to move off the table.  In fact I'm not sure if I have ever moved a drake off.

 

But sticking with just the hades cannon versions, the one thing that pushes me towards the drake most is its mobility.  Between vector strike and its 18" to 36" movement it is rare that you are shooting anything worse than side armor.

[TheDevourer]

I would never judge a model by it´s looks but by its merits in game. After all you can convert the model to your tastes fairly easily. I don´t like the heldrake model, but that would never stop me fielding one or two or three . Just means I have to build some

I rarely have to leave the table myself aswell, but maybe that all depends on how good your opponent blocks you or how good you are at planning ahead

[Fibonacci]

 

 

Other point in favor of the hadesfiend over hadesdrake, if you're going to take hades at all: the hades fiend has big awesome autocannons that look devastating, while the hadesdrake has what looks like the rotating barrels on an infantry assault cannon circa 2000.  Just not as impressive visually.

 

This is the reason I wouldnt bother with the Dakkadrake, the gun is piddly. Unless you replaced the head with a Hades-cannon.

or a hades cannon mounted on a shark head

[nurglez]

One great thing about the drake, apart from the baleflamer, or the fact its a flyer, is that the vector strike happens at the end of the movement phase, thus you can hit 2 units with it, or force a LD check on one unit twice in the same turn with one unit.

 

I also have rarely had to move the heldrake off the table, and sometimes switching to hover mode can provide a nice distraction (especially towards the end of the game where some people will focus on the drake instead of a weaken troop unit, due to the threat of the drake).

 

Ultimately, to me they fulfill different roles and thus I find them hard to compare (and while I had considered swapping my hadesfiend for a second heldrake, I decided against it as I like 1 of each).

[Nusquam]

I take Hadesfiends because I can buff them with Prescience from my Tzeentch Heralds. That combined with Daemonforge makes for great Light-Meduim armor hunting as well as flyer hunting in a pinch. If I were to take 'Drakes I would use the flamer, precisely because I can buff 'Fiends and AP3 torrents fill the gaps.

[Dam13n]

If its a straight hades-fiend vs hades-drake decision, I'd probably go for the fiend. The big negative on both is the BS3, at that point the extra shots become more handy.

 

I'd use it as a transport hunter or anti-air if I really had to.

 

The problem is that the Bale-drake is awesome at roasting MEQ or worse, and a S7 vector strike is great at taking out transports and other flyers.

 

That leaves anti-TEQ and anti-heavy vehicles. For this a Ecto-fiend or Obliterators outclass the Hades-fiend against TEQ and Obliterators or melta-chosen or melta-termicide or melta-bikes is a better way of shafting heavy vehicles.

 

The problem is that if you want a good all-comers list. You need units that will shine against most armies or are very good at their allotted task. The hades doesn't really offer that.

 

Now if you could put one on a Helbrute, that would be different, as it doesn't compete with the valuable Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices (it's also BS4). If you could have a rifleman style one, that'd be awesome!

[minigun762]

When we muddy the water with actual list building, I'll be the first to say that it gets messy.

 

I fully agree with malisteen that you only have 1 chance to get baleflamers in your army and so, in my opinion, the first drake should have a flamer. With the second or third drake, I see more value in a hades.

 

As for the fiend, I haven't found a good justification for the ectoplasma. Compared to plasma cannons on obliterators or a vindicator's demolisher, I fail to see where I'd rather have the ectofiend. In my eyes, this means the only reason to bring a fiend is if you want the hades. Luckily, I've run the math and the hades compares well against autocannons or lascannons.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

 

The drake comes out turn 2 at the earliest and will almost certainly fly off the board for at least a single turn.

Is this consistant with most people?  I seldom have to move off the table.  In fact I'm not sure if I have ever moved a drake off.

 

Normally you're going to be making your full 90˚ turn, then adjusting the length of your movement. Your entry point and initial angle will determine everything else about where you can go, so if you plan ahead it's no problem.

 

On a 4x6 table you can come in at enough of an angle with enough space to get a roughly diamond-shaped pattern going. Come in toward the middle of your long edge at a 45˚ angle, then keep making 90˚ turns in the same direction to circle the battle field dropping templates on hapless souls.

 

You can also make a roughly Z-shaped run down and back again if you come in from the far end of your table end, or if you have short edge deployment.

 

The mistake that's easy to make is to fixate on your first target and sacrifice the ability to make an extended run in order to get the best possible shot at that first target.

 

I try to end movement phases as close to a table edge as I can, and more or less parallel to it. That way I can turn in toward the table and continue flying. If you forget your pre-planned pattern, keeping that rule in mind can help gain some more time "on station" while you sort yourself out.

[TheDevourer]

Personal experience has shown myself, that 2 Baledrakes are more than enough, for me the third drake is always a hadesdrake

[Dam13n]

The Ectoplasma comes into its own against anything with T4 and 2 (or more) wounds.

- ie Paladins, Meganobz, Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns, etc.

- plus most MEQ/TEQ Independent Characters.

 

I've seen one used to great effect in games.

 

The big problem I see with the Hades-fiend is that a unit of Autocannon Havoks will be easier to keep alive and just as effective against the targets you'd use the fiend on.  Plus for 170pts, you can have extra ablative bodies in that unit to make it even more survivable.  They're also easier to hide in cover, albeit less mobile.

 

Like I said earlier, if it were a straight decision between the two options, my vote would go to the fiend.  Being available on turn 1 and having twice the number of shots mean it's better at the job of killing transports than the drake, and that's the job I'd give them in game.

[nurglez]

Yes but vs flyers 8 shots hitting on 6s or 4 hitting on 4s (combined with a vector strike possibly), also with the added speed of the drake you can get side or rear shots more easily, I'd say the hadesdrake is better anti flyer, however the hades fiend is better all rounder (str 8 autocannons are nice, instant deathing most Marine hqs with 1 failed save).

[Dam13n]

True, but then again the bale-drake has the same vector strike capability, (D3+1 S7 auto-hits, even on a flyer with no option to evade/jink so no save unless it's got an Invulnerable save) and that should be enough for most flyers.  Add a quad-gun or Icarus and that covers flyers pretty well.

 

(IIRC - a flyer can only choose to evade if hit by a shooting attack, vector strikes aren't shooting attacks - no evading for you!)

 

The other thing to consider is if you're playing an objective game - the number of times I've seen a skyfire nexus rolled.  You get a Hades-fiend on one of those...

 

The point is somewhat moot as far as I'm concerned, as I wouldn't take the Hades if I took a Drake or a Fiend because I prefer the other weapon choices.  As I alluded to in my first post, a Helbrute would be a different thing altogether.  Elites aren't so hotly contested, so one (or more) Brutes with Hades Autocannons would make for a great addition to a gunline army.  It's just a shame that GW didn't give it the option.  (Especially as the Decimator would make for a great Rifleman Helbrute model)

[TheDevourer]

You can´t evade Vector Strikes, they ignore cover `(as an additional special rule) :D