Lorgars Powers

[TheFlayedMan]

Hi everyone, just a quick question about the Urizen and his powers. Given that the events of The First Heretic occur 50 years IIRC before the Council of Nikea and the Heresy, do you think Lorgar experimented in sorcery just as Magnus did throughout this period (although to a less degree) up until Nikea and if so, would Magnus have known about it? Or did he keep it under wraps until Istvaan?

[Kol Saresk]

"Yes".

 

In Mark of Calth and Battle for the Abyss, we see that the Word Bearers did have a Librarius division and maintained it even after the Edict and after the Pilgrimage, added in the curriculum of sorcery, which we see later on that Erebus(KNF, Betrayer, MoC), Kor Phaeron(KNF) and Lorgar(Betrayer) practiced sorcery to some extent or another and that Lorgar also exercised his psychic powers(Aurelian, Butcher's Nails, Betrayer). But Magnus knew none of it until Aurelian when he astral projecting himself to Istvaan and talked to Lorgar and the Urizen temporarily disrupted the projection with a psychic push/nudge/wave/not-really-sure-what-to-call-it.

[Aegnor]

Don't think Lorgar and the Word Bearers would have paid any attention to the Edict of Nikea. They'd already broken with the Emperor in secret and by Nikea were well advanced in their plans for the Heresy.

 

Outwardly they'd have towed the line and simply continued to practice sorcery in private.

[GhostMalone]

I always was under the impression that his powers were dormant till after the pilgrimage and that he always heard/felt the presence of chaos yet didn't understand what it was. I even believe he and Magnus had a conversation prior his censure when he asked Magnus what lays in the warp for when he travels through it he always heard felt something calling to him. And that he only had his dormant abilities awaken upon his entrance to the eye of terror in Aurelian

 

I always was under the impression that his powers were dormant till after the pilgrimage and that he always heard/felt the presence of chaos yet didn't understand what it was. I even believe he and Magnus had a conversation prior his censure when he asked Magnus what lays in the warp for when he travels through it he always heard felt something calling to him. And that he only had his dormant abilities awaken upon his entrance to the eye of terror in Aurelian

[Aegnor]

Remember though, the Pilgrimage happened decades before Nikea.

 

And there are two categories of Lorgar's powers; his native psychic strength and his "sorcery", which relies on power bargained for/supplied by daemons. He uses the two pretty seemlessly after the Pilgrimage but would have psychic abilities prior to that IMO.

[GhostMalone]

Ahh yes that's right.

 

;)

[Balthamal]

Don't quote me on the exaxt novel it comes from but there is a passage describing how Lorgar had always bitten back on his psychic powers because to an extent he feared what it represented. 

 

In truth it's only really Magnus who overtly revels in his psychic powers (they shaped his whole legion in effect) whilst some who have been attributed psychic powers (Sanguinius - precognition, Corax - invisibility) tend to be quite circumspect in not only their use but also their existence.

 

As for Nikea, it wouldn't totally be a shock if Lorgar was a driving force behind Magnus being censured. He would have known of the potential strength that a functioning Librarius would provide against any daemonic entities and persuaded Russ and Mortarion to push the Emperor to smack down the Crimson King. End result - Magnus is driven into the arms of Tzeentch, the Legions certain to stay loyal (Fists, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels) would disband their Librarius although Russ would just ignore it and to an extent so would the Khan

[Xin Ceithan]

While I am an unashamed fanboy of the eight folded path, I feel there is too much reading into what Lorgar, Erebus and the like are credited with in the line up of the heresy. I am sure Tzeentch could give Magnus and his Legion enough rope to hang themselves all by himself And take him out the picture for Horus little power play while he's at it. give the Lord of Intigue and magic some credit here ;)

surely Lorgar et al were not that unhappy to pick up on that though. Then again, Magnus was one of the few close brothers Lorgar had before. Given that he is willing to help Angron to become a demon Princeton to save him (again with bonus and all IMO and later than Nikea) I can't see him throwing Magnus literally to the Wolves at that point of the timeline, at least not willingly / consciously. After Istvann, I guess anything goes ....

also please note that the Alpha Legion has the first go at setting up every one else for the heresy and everything else:)

[Balthamal]

While I am an unashamed fanboy of the eight folded path, I feel there is too much reading into what Lorgar, Erebus and the like are credited with in the line up of the heresy. I am sure Tzeentch could give Magnus and his Legion enough rope to hang themselves all by himself And take him out the picture for Horus little power play while he's at it. give the Lord of Intigue and magic some credit here

surely Lorgar et al were not that unhappy to pick up on that though. Then again, Magnus was one of the few close brothers Lorgar had before. Given that he is willing to help Angron to become a demon Princeton to save him (again with bonus and all IMO and later than Nikea) I can't see him throwing Magnus literally to the Wolves at that point of the timeline, at least not willingly / consciously. After Istvann, I guess anything goes ....

also please note that the Alpha Legion has the first go at setting up every one else for the heresy and everything else:)

They do? I was under the impression it was Lorgar who became the first of the Imperium to irrevocably cross that line. Hence the novel being named The First Heretic :)

In all seriousness though, Lorgar's schemes are so deep rooted and wide spread I don't count it beyond the realms of possibility that he used the opportunity of friction between Russ and Magnus to begin his grand crusade of enlightenment. Remember, he calls himself the archpriest of the Pantheon, that happens to include Tzeentch as well.

Final point, yes he saved Angron (somewhat) but it also implies that said salvation involved agony the likes of which no being had ever experienced. Lorgar's gifts come with a price it seems :)

[Kol Saresk]

However, Lorgar is not the only one making ripples. It wasn't Lorgar who organized a deal between Magnus and Tzeentch. It wasn't Lorgar who secretly kept the old religions of Colchis and other worlds alive. It wasn't Lorgar who told Fulgrim to pick up the sword of the Laer and to let it kill Ferrus Manus. It wasn't Lorgar who convinced Curze to kill Nostramo. It wasn't Lorgar who caused Mortarion to have a deep distrust and hate of psykers because of what the ruling caste of his homeworld did.

 

Now, Lorgar did do a lot to engineer the Heresy. But he is far from the only person who did anything to bring it about. I think one of the biggest ironies of the Heresy is that Erebus and Kor Phaeron thought they were the Scions of Chaos just because they converted Lorgar when in all reality, they were tools meant to bring one being into focus, the true Scion of Chaos, and then to serve him. C'est la vie.