Salvo and Overwatch Question

[captain sox]

Hi folks,

 

 Here's a gaming question (I don't play much, but I was thinking about this). If you have a unit or units in the salvo "bubble", if that unit is charged, do the Bolters fire Overwatch with the Salvo profile? Would you get 4 shots from each boltetr if the charge range was less than 12"?

[elphilo]

There's nothing saying you can't fire salvo in overwatch from what I can tell. So yes, all units that are within the banner buff range for salvo would get to fire overwatch at the salvo profile.

[Brother Brucey]

The unit didn't move (in the opponent's movement phase), so four shots it is.

[BigGumbo]

The unit didn't move (in the opponent's movement phase), so four shots it is.

Logic would suggest that the number of shots would be determined by whether or not the unit moved in their own last movement phase, not the enemy's.

[shortysl]

The charge range is irrelevant. If your models were stationary in their previous movement phase they would fire 4 shots on Overwatch. If they had moved, they would fire two.

[Brother Brucey]

Interesting... I thought the wording was the same for Heavy and Salvo, but it isn't.

 

Heavy is "If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase - -", Salvo is "If the model has not moved - -".

 

Silly RAW says a Salvo weapon can fire at full effect only if the model doesn't move at all during the game.

 

:)

[AngelVeto]

Actually, it's answered easily by a section in the bgb (I don't have it with me so forgive the lack of page reference) that states that weapons fire their full profile during overwatch. Heavy, salvo, rapid fire, they all shoot the max shots they can get. The only things that can't fire overwatch are blast/large blast and technically flame weapons as they aren't firing overwatch; they are creating a wall of death.

[Brother Brucey]

This is the only part I could find:

 

 

BGB p. 21:

An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack - - and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.

 

I've played my Salvo bolters as firing 4 shots on overwatch whether my Tacticals have moved or not, and none of my opponents have questioned it. The actual wording on Salvo weapons doesn't help settle this, however, so half the range and half the shots may very well be what the designers had in mind for overwatch on the player turn after you moved.

 

This could also affect marines forced to disembark from their transport, too. Disembarking is movement and it is done in the same player turn as the overwatch shots, so in this case there is an event stronger case for just two shots.

 

Discuss with your group and hope for a FAQ?

[BigGumbo]

This is the only part I could find:

 

 

BGB p. 21:

An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack - - and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.

 

I've played my Salvo bolters as firing 4 shots on overwatch whether my Tacticals have moved or not, and none of my opponents have questioned it. The actual wording on Salvo weapons doesn't help settle this, however, so half the range and half the shots may very well be what the designers had in mind for overwatch on the player turn after you moved.

 

This could also affect marines forced to disembark from their transport, too. Disembarking is movement and it is done in the same player turn as the overwatch shots, so in this case there is an event stronger case for just two shots.

 

Discuss with your group and hope for a FAQ?

By your logic you should only be able to have a Jink save against overwatch or Interceptor shots, since these are the only enemy shots which occur during your turn. Since you didn't move during your opponent's movement phase, you wouldn't get a jink save against shots fired in their shooting phase. Still think it needs an FAQ?

[Brother Brucey]

Jink is different. You get the save until the start of your next movement phase (p. 38).
 

So yes, having a chat before the game with your opponent on how Salvo weapons are supposed to work seems like a good idea.

[BigGumbo]

My point is that trying to argue that you get four shots on overwatch because you didn't move in your opponent's movement phase (when you aren't allowed to move anyway) is specious at best.

[IndigoJack]

The way I see it, the problem comes down to the wording of salvo. There needs to be a clarification of whether or not you can snap fire the full profile or not. Until then, I would either discuss it with your opponent before hand or play it save and use the lower number.

[notmattlythgoe]

The way I see it, the problem comes down to the wording of salvo. There needs to be a clarification of whether or not you can snap fire the full profile or not. Until then, I would either discuss it with your opponent before hand or play it save and use the lower number.

I don't see anything that keeps you from snap firing the full profile no matter what. The only confusing thing is if you moved in your last movement phase or the players movement phase. I'll be playing it in the way that seems logical, if you moved in your last movement phase then you fire half range 2 shots, if not full range 4 shots.

[IndigoJack]

The problem is there is nothing saying you can snap fire the full profile like there is for heavy weapons. The fact that heavy weapons can be snap-fired even if you moved is the reason they can be used for overwatch. Salvo(like many of the new rules) is poorly worded. As written, the moment you move any model with a salvo weapon you're forced to use the first number in the profile ("If the model has not moved, it can instead fire..." BYB, p.52). There needs to be a FAQ stating either:

 

a ) salvo weapons can always be snap-fired at their full profile

 

b ) salvo weapons can use their full profile if the model did not moved in its last movement phase

 

c ) salvo weapons can use their full profile if the model did not move in the previous movement phase.

 

If I had to guess, I'd assume that b is the most likely answer. It's certainly the one I'm going to play as it is the most conservative. The first one would be nice however, as it would mean that you wouldn't sacrifice as much mobility.

[BigGumbo]

I think the interaction of the various rules is pretty clear cut:

 

Overwatch attacks are resolved "like a normal shooting attack". Weapons that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire overwatch (BGB p.21). Salvo weapons can fire snap shots, because the Salvo rule doesn't specify that they can't (Ordnance, Template and Blast weapons all specify that they cannot fire Snap Shots).

 

Salvo says that you can move and fire the first number of shots or fire the second number of shots if you haven't moved. I accept that this could have been made more explicit but the contrast of "have not moved" with "move and fire" implies very strongly that the relevant concern is whether or not you moved in your own previous movement phase. It doesn't make sense to think of "move and fire" in any context other than performing both actions in the same turn.

 

The Snap Shot rule only changes the Ballistic Skill value that you use to resolve the overwatch shooting attack: it makes no mention of changes to the weapon profile that you use for the attack.

 

It wouldn't do any harm to discuss beforehand if you're playing against someone who you think might take issue, but I think the basis for using the full Salvo profile for overwatch shooting is extremely difficult to rebut, with the number of shots determined by whether or not the model moved in its own previous movement phase.