Thunderfire cannon: best uses and synergy?

[Febelcrofas]

I was thnking about purchasing one of the above and was wondering about how people use theirs and what type of list they gel with. I run quite a balanced 1750 c:sm  and was wondering how people use theirs and in what type of list etc. I probably will end up getting one as I love the model and would quite like a tech-marine too. I've got a drop pod which is lying dormant at the moment and I know you can put the cannon in it so do people do this?

Also do you get to use the bolster defences ability even if the tech-marine is part of the thunderfire cannon model?

[McFisty]

Thunderfire Cannons are great since they were FAQ'ed for 6th. ed. Yes, the techmarine still gives you the Bolster Defenses special rule when he is with a Thunderfire Cannon. Drop podding your TC might be helpful sometimes but usually avoided because it can not move and shoot in the same turn. Most people just deploy it right from the start and the long range of it makes it an immediate threat. A TC is useful in almost any list and against almost any opponent. I recommend at least one and maybe two TC for every Ultramarines army list. Either proxy one or buy one and try it in several games, you will learn to love them!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

First, yes, you do get Bolster Defenses. The only things he doesn't have unless the gun is destroyed are Independent Character and Blessing of the Omnissiah.

As for uses, they're really not that complicated -- it's a pretty simple point-and-shoot weapon system. The surface detonation rounds are going to be of the most use against Space Marines, where you're generally not worried about cover saves and you're wounding on 2+. So long as you pick a target that is reasonably clumped, you can normally land more than enough hits to give through armor saves and force wounds through. Avoid shooting at Terminators unless you have no other infantry or bike targets though; larger bases and better saves means that you're unlikely to cause enough wounds to reliably kill anything; maybe one guy, two if your opponent's dice go south.

The airburst round, on the other hand, is my go-to choice when fighting Guard and most xenos. S5 is enough to wound most of them a 2+ still. Against orks and gribblies, who generally have a 6+ or even no save, it's awesome since they rely so heavily on cover to make it across the board (especially orks; airburst rounds invalidate kustom force fields and absolutely brutalize Lootas, who are usually the single greatest shooting threat in an ork army). Even against Guard or Guardians, you will still get saves, the no-cover is key since many times, these units will rely on terrain or an Aegis Defense Line to provide cover saves that are better than their armor. It also bones over units with built-in cover saves like SM Scouts and Eldar Rangers, forcing the use of a worse save, and is the perfect counter to Kroot (especially the new hotness, Kroot Snipers) since the best they can do for armor saves is a 6+.

The subterranean rounds, on the other hand, are a tricky beast to employ properly. Now that failed dangerous terrain tests allow armor saves, they have lost a lot of their utility. Still, they're decent for forcing bad decisions on unwary players who run bike or jump infantry units, but against assault infantry hordes (like orks and gribbly Nids) you're generally better off killing them with surface or airburst rounds than you are trying to slow them down with subterranean rounds. Keep in mind that units that are hit by subterranean rounds move in difficult terrain, so even if just one model in a unit gets clipped by a template and takes no wound from it, that unit is still affected by Tremor.

As for tactics and army lists, I've been using a single one since the unit came out in almost every single army list, and even in 5th Edition where it died if you looked at it funny, it gave sterling service. Like many things in 40K, when taken as a pair, it goes from "awesome" to "devastating," but it is still extremely effective as a single now that -- thanks to the 6th Edition artillery rules -- it's reasonably difficult to kill. Anedoctally, a buddy of mine went to a tournament in Orlando a couple weeks ago and took my Iron Hands as allies to his Eldar because he wanted A) the spotlights from my dreads and Rhino, and he wanted my TFC. It was the rockstar of our army at a team tournament we had paired up for the previous weekend, and he was THAT impressed by it. Something else to remember is your activation order. Infantry that have to disembark from a destroyed transport tend to be rather clumped up, so if you don't have any good targets at the start of your shooting phase, remember to let your anti-tank guns go to work before you waste fire from the TFC on a sub-par target. If you can pop just one APC, you'll have a juicy target for it.

The advent of universal night fighting in games doesn't mesh well with the TFC's 60" range, and if you don't have a couple solid sources of searchlights, you might not get much use out of it on a first-turn-Night-Fight game. The best complement in this case is a drop podding dreadnought, since they'll generally land more than close enough to hit something and then searchlight it, removing that unit's protection from the darkness. My favorite in this case is an Ironclad since they are more survivable than regular dreadnoughts (important with the advent of Interceptor weapons), and their pair of heavy flamers combined with a TFC salvo is usually enough to murderize any infantry unit in the game.

And lastly, if there are no good targets presented by the end of your shooting phase (it happens), use it as a light anti-tank gun. S6 is more than enough to pop a Rhino, light skimmers, or War Walkers. It's not the ideal use, but any damage it can cause is better than not shooting it at all. Alternately, throw the subterranean rounds at tanks instead -- especially ones without dozer blades. This is where you might actually make some many off of Tremor rounds.

As for the drop pod idea, it's not a good idea to actually pod in a TFC. Like McFisty said, it won't get to shoot the turn it comes down anyway. That being said, it's usually best to have an odd number of pods, and the TFC is a great way to get an extra pod into an army if you're on a budget points-wise. You can just drop it empty; like any other dedicated transport, the unit does NOT have to start in the transport. I did this several times when I was running two drop podded dreads; the third (empty) pod, assigned to my TFC, meant that I could get both of my dreads down on the first turn, and I wasn't too bummed when my reserves took their time coming in because the pod was empty to begin with.

[Febelcrofas]

Wow! Thanks ferrum, that is a lot of food for thought! I really love the model so it's been on my "list" for a while. My army is quite good at taking down armour but recently I've been wishing I could take down infantry quicker. As u don't have my dex on me could you tell me what the deal us with the tech marine. Do you get to tool him up or dies he come bare bones with no chance for upgrades? I may have to stop by gw on my way home.........

[Iron Father Ferrum]

He's barebones, with no options for wargear in any way, shape, or form.  He does, however, come standard with a servo-harness, so if the cannon does get destroyed, at least you have two power fist attacks, a twinlinked plasma pistol, and a flamer to run around with.  Back ni 5th Edition, my TFC gunner shot a Grey Knight Storm Raven down with his plasma pistol during a tournament, which was a moment of awesome I'm not likely to forget.

[Febelcrofas]

Sweet! I love it when stuff like that happens. Thanks for the lowdown man. I'm going home to study my army list and come up with some tactics.

[Grizzly_bear]

I always.... Well 95% of the time take at least 1 TFC....as its performed so well. I usually add in a unit of scout snipers to put on a level under Neath the TFC (always put it on the highest point I can) and so when my opponent wants to take it out via CC they have a turn or two being held up.

 

I've taken 3 before against a friends ork horde and they destroyed and I mean destroyed the orks (thumbs up from Rogal Dorn at that point)

 

In relic TFC's shine even more.

 

I honestly would take one with most games as they become a threat, alive also teamed them up with vindicators and that makes people worry.

[Ultra Magnus]

I am curious about how people position the tech marine crew relative to the gun itself. Since the rules specify that shooting wounds must be allocated to the closest model first, do folks feel it is better to position the tech marine forward to get the benefit of his 2+ armor save or put the gun forward to get benefit of its 2 wounds and the possibility of his gaining independent character status upon its demise?

[Axagoras]

Never put him infront of the gun, because if he dies then the gun is gone as well and to be honest with 2 wounds and T7 thats tough enough while in bolstered cover.

[greatcrusade08]

the techy also gets to use the cannons T7, and has a 2+ armour save.

so its not always a bad thing to put him in the front, depends on what army your facing and whether hes most likely to face lascannon and melta shots (techy behind the gun) or lots of small arms fire (techy infront of the gun)

 

even if the cannon doesnt shoot for some reason (drop podding) then the techy still has his own weapons, TL plasma and a flamer IIRC

[Axagoras]

To me no mater what the army I face is its not with 100 points to roll 1 1 and lose the gun. Same logic to deep striking it in, being close enough to use his servo harness weps means hes in the thick of it and thats not where a TFC belongs. Maybe I just roll too many 1s to risk that lol.

[WarriorFish]

This topic has me all fired up to use my TFC. What a shame it's still in the box only half bended into usable shape... :( I like Techmarines and artillery so the TFC is right up my street, is it worth taking a couple in a list? Not that I assume the resin one will be much better to assemble but at least it would be a different building experience.

 

Presumably a couple, perhaps even with a Whirlwind, could reliably pound enemy infantry into submission leaving the rest of your force to focus on taking objectives and popping tanks?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's a wonderful weapon with great utility, and the general respect level for it has gone up a thousand fold since 6th Edition changed the Artillery rules and made it durable.  I used to be the only person I know who owned one, much less fielded it.  Now, it pops up in my local tournament scene fairly often.

 

Fish, I wouldn't take two TFCs AND a Whirlwind; they pretty much fill the same niche (anti-infantry blast weapons) and you'd be blocking out all your Heavy slots, where other things like Vindis, Predators, and Devs are still eminently useful.  If you want to go artillery-heavy (notice the little "a"), I'd take either two TFCs OR one TFC and one Whirlwind (I take a TFC and a Vindicator, personally).  Either way, you get plenty of table coverage with blast weapons and durability out of both (since the WW can hide behind LOS-blocking terrain).

[WarriorFish]

That was my thinking, prior to 6th my TFC was partially assembled and the changes to artillery inspired me to finally complete it but I'm still doing battle getting the bloody thing to fit together. Currently it's my "spare moments" project because I don't think my sanity can take too much at a time.

 

I've been running lists fairly light on the Heavy Support choices lately which is somewhat unusual considering my usual penchant for it, so I thought it could be worth a stab. Three units to blitz infantry for 285pts it doesn't feel like an completely awful deal, maybe I'll give it a test once I've got more TFC deployments under my belt. I think I'll run it with a couple of Vindies first :D

 

Got to assemble it first though, has anyone built the resin one? Thanks for the post Deus :)

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Target selection for the :cuss can be important.  It will often perform best early in the game, but as units get thinner, it loses some effectiveness.  When placing it, I place it for the best possible field of fire (pay special attention to any place your enemy is likely to have to scrunch together in a bottleneck.  A nice densely packed large area of troops is it's best target.  It has good synergy with assault units because they impose opposing imperatives on the enemy.  Against assault troops, the enemy should be moving into tighter groups.  Against a :cuss, the enemy wants to spread out.  Previously, TFGs got ignored a lot because it was a "bad unit" but this has been changing, at least in places I play regularly.

 

Some highlights:

1 :cuss can sweep a unit of pathfinders in one turn.

2 :cuss can keep a mass of foot-slogging orcs pruned back almost as fast as they can move forward.

TFGs can also be a real pain for 'Nyds until they come after it specifically.

 

I like pairing the :cuss with a L Typhoon and a tac squad in a sort of firebase unit.  I usually have a Dread and shooty termies out on the board or maybe a Vindicator.  Those mostly draw the early fire.

 

I agree to save the :cuss for your last shots except when you want to use it to clear out some bubble wrap so something else can shoot at a now uncovered target.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Target selection for the :cuss can be important.  It will often perform best early in the game, but as units get thinner, it loses some effectiveness.  When placing it, I place it for the best possible field of fire (pay special attention to any place your enemy is likely to have to scrunch together in a bottleneck.  A nice densely packed large area of troops is it's best target.  It has good synergy with assault units because they impose opposing imperatives on the enemy.  Against assault troops, the enemy should be moving into tighter groups.  Against a :cuss, the enemy wants to spread out.  Previously, TFGs got ignored a lot because it was a "bad unit" but this has been changing, at least in places I play regularly.

 

Some highlights:

1 :cuss can sweep a unit of pathfinders in one turn.

2 :cuss can keep a mass of foot-slogging orcs pruned back almost as fast as they can move forward.

TFGs can also be a real pain for 'Nyds until they come after it specifically.

 

I like pairing the :cuss with a L Typhoon and a tac squad in a sort of firebase unit.  I usually have a Dread and shooty termies out on the board or maybe a Vindicator.  Those mostly draw the early fire.

 

I agree to save the :cuss for your last shots except when you want to use it to clear out some bubble wrap so something else can shoot at a now uncovered target.

 

Saving the TFC for last is a horrible idea.  Blast weapons, regardless of blast size or rate of fire, need big clumps of enemies to be effective -- that's the benefit of having a blast radius, you can hit multiple enemies with a single shot.  The only time I don't fire my TFC first is when all the good targets are inside APCs and I need to lead with my lascannons to peel them out and thus give the TFC a shot in the first place.

 

If you want until last, after things like assault cannons and bolters have done what they could to enemy infantry units, you're actually depriving yourself of possible hits with the TFC.  It's the cardinal rule of blast weapons: fire them first at targets with plenty of potential models to hit.  My shooting priority, in fact, normally goes TFC, Vindicator, plasma cannon, plasma cannon, everything else.  Obviously that can change depending on target types and what's in LOS, but it usually works out for me.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Obviously, if you shot up your best TFC target with other shooters, you will minimize your damage with the TFC.  Having said that:

 

1.  I find it is usually best to shoot weapons based on what has the least number of targets and what I really need to kill in a given turn.  If I have an infantry squad with only one target (or only having part of the target in view), I do not want to shoot the TFC first and eliminate that target leaving nothing for the squad to shoot at.  Thus, I shoot first with things that have the most limited target selection.  That is almost never the TFC with its 60" range.

 

2.  Second, sometimes, I want to pop a transport before I fire the TFC at it's contents.  I'd fire my precision high S weapons first, then the blast stuff.

 

3.  Sometimes, what I fire the TFC at depends on how other units do at shooting other targets in which case I want to know the results of that first.  Sometimes, the opposite; I want to see how the TFC does first before I decide how to shoot another unit.  However, since the TFC often has a much more flexible target selection due to its range, this often tracks with #1 above.

 

4.  Often when firing the TFC at the right kind of target (massed, bad Sv, troops), the gun does so well that it pulls back the edge of those troops away and out of range of another unit I want to shoot.  For example, it might prevent rapid firing from some tacticals if I knock the Ork horde back 4 inches which will happen since the TFC still takes from the closest models.

 

Now sometimes, you do want to shoot the TFC first, for example when there is a bottleneck where all the enemy are massed together and you won't be potentially taking shots form your other troops.  More often, I fire the TFC last.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

To each their own, I suppose.  In an instance where my TFC kills the only thing in range/LOS of another unit, I will take that opportunity to instead run the other unit.  This allows my dismounted combat squads to either assume more advantageous positions, or to break contact and fall back from potential assaulters, that sort of thing.

 

Remember, just because a unit isn't shooting doesn't mean it has nothing to do.

[SonOfThunder]

Sorry for the necro, but just read something in the thread that I thought worked otherwise.

 

The TFC still takes from the closest models? I thought since it's a barrage weapon, it takes from the models closest to the blast, so if it lands near the unit's back, the models taken will be from the back. And if it lands on a sergeant in the unit, then that sergeant will have to do all the saves or have look out sirs for all the wounds. Isn't it like this!

[Lysere]

Sorry for the necro, but just read something in the thread that I thought worked otherwise.

 

The TFC still takes from the closest models? I thought since it's a barrage weapon, it takes from the models closest to the blast, so if it lands near the unit's back, the models taken will be from the back. And if it lands on a sergeant in the unit, then that sergeant will have to do all the saves or have look out sirs for all the wounds. Isn't it like this!

 

Now that the TFC has barrage it does take from the center of the blasts, so it does not need line of sight to hit things, and it can snipe models with a good hit. Also since it is barrage you place one shot, scatter, then just use the scatter die to flip the template over as per multiple barrage rules.

 

Also many people seem to miss this but the Techmarine does not become an IC when the cannon dies. There are no rules to change his unit type to that of the hq slot techmarine. If the cannon dies he is technically still an artillery unit, and he does not have a rule that gives him ic status. Those rules are part of the old codex, not the new one.

[WarriorFish]

Can someone point me to the page that prevents barrage weapons from firing normally (what used to be called direct fire)? I keep seeing people mention this but I've been unable to find it. Thanks!

[Lysere]

Can someone point me to the page that prevents barrage weapons from firing normally (what used to be called direct fire)? I keep seeing people mention this but I've been unable to find it. Thanks!

 

There is none now, the barrage rules say nothing about direct fire because it no longer matters. When you fire barrage just ask yourself these question.

 

1. Do I have line of sight?

2. Is the target past my minimum range?

 

If both are yes, you get your BS with the shot, if either one is no, you don't get your BS. Targets inside minimum range or outside of line of sight deprive you of your BS, but other than that barrage is no different than blast weapons, except you know, being pinning and hitting side armor/allocated from center and all that. Too many old rules keep being brought up when the new book either changed them or simply removed them. Note the IG faq removes all mentions of direct fire.

 

Edit: Me and a local IG player used to discuss this rule a lot since we had a few times where he was firing his artillery within the minimum range and claiming direct fire. Eventually we found it in the barrage rules, and then he promptly rolled a hit anyway.

[SyNidus]

I started off using only one, and while it was incredibly good, when I moved to using 2, I never looked back. The only question was whether to give them drop pods or not, this question was largely answered by the fact that it now allows me to drop my 3 other drop pods on turn 1.

 

I use them as part of my long range fire support suite. The rest of my army either flies in or drop pods in, so I need units that are effective enough to provide fire support from turn 1, no matter where they are on the board.

 

And yes, they perform very well every time.

[WarriorFish]

Thanks for that Lysere, I am of the same opinion. I wrote a small primer for artillery not that long back where I reference this, but I was hearing people say this couldn't be done so I thought I'd stick my neck out and ask for the page reference they were going from.

 

Just makes the Thunderfire even better though, for clearing out infantry it does a very good job for the price as SyNidus said. The special rounds being a nice bonus I think, just a shame about the model being such a pain in the backside to assemble. I suppose you could say that just makes it's effectiveness all the sweeter :P