More toys for the Knights

[Justicar Enethys]

With regards to a 'patch' - I agree. Many things for our forces have been left by the wayside or have been left looking ridiculous and out dated. I'm not bemoaning how hard we have it. I like our Codex, but a fair few loose ends could use tying up ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm actually really interested in what you think is outdated now.  Would you mind expanding on that?

[Sigvard]

I'm actually really interested in what you think is outdated now. Would you mind expanding on that?

How about the horrific inability to combat anything in the air? Sure we have a Storm Raven, but that thing is just ain't meant for air to air combat. Especially in a sky ruled by the Vector Striking, flame spewing Heldrake. The inability as a "deep striking army" to reliably have my troops touch down on the field without getting eaten by a building on a regular basis, without taking a mystic or servo skulls. Granted my Inquisitor always takes servo skulls but this not the point The fact that a Brotherhood Champion has only one wound could also do with an update....

[Aethernitas]

I still don't understand why people think the GK need to be 'nurfed' in 6th.  So much of the power the dex had was equlaised by the release of 6th.

 

If you were referring to my comment about bringing GKs and Necrons in line asap  - I wasn't talking about a nerf at all. I think GKs as far as the general powerlevel goes are very much in line with most of the new codizes. Still one of the stronger codizes out there but only by a margin.

 

The reasons for wishing for a 6th edition update are (borrowing Enethys words) the many things left by the wayside. 6th edition tries to streamline special rules by establishing them all in the BRB and simply referring to them in the codizes, therefore making sure the foundation is the same for every codex. The Grey Knights are built on a totally diferent foundation. There are so many things that use old mechanics, superspecial unique rules, overly gimmicky stuff and last but not least some rules that simply break the metagame cuz of their abundance in our army.

 

a non-exhaustive list of things falling under this category:

all the ultragimmicky McGyver grenades

the fact that our TEQ have grenades at all

shunting

our many obsolete psychic powers

the Psilencer

the armywide preferred enemy

Cleansing Flame

Cotaez

most of the assassins

the Nemesis Force Weapon special rules

 

 

Then of course there are also the things that would make the codex so much better by changing only details and/but have no real impact on the overall balance of the dex. My list of those is REALLY long and is kind of off topic so I'll refrain from putting it here.

 

Edit: Haha how could I forget about the total lack of AA options?! Thanks Sigvard. Just make it so that Astral Aim either ignores cover or gives Skyfire :)

[Justicar Enethys]

Gentlemanloser, on 20 May 2013 - 22:23, said:

"I'm actually really interested in what you think is outdated now. Would you mind expanding on that?"

With the idea of a 'patch' - my issues aren't just things which are outdated - though that describes some of them. Looking ridiculous also applies in some instances where out dated doesn't . . .

1/ I would adjust the pricing or abilities of Venerable Dreadnoughts. As a priority. Hull Points directly got rid of the majority of the benefit of these guys. Sure you get slightly better stats, but the key to these guys is their ability to make the attacker re-roll the damage result. Now - who cares. 3 glances and you're out. Needs an update.

2/ The NDK Personal Teleporter price. Obviously I'm not AS bothered by it as you are, but you do make good points and I see where you are coming from. The price for this was introduced in the new Codex in 5th Edition. Maybe GW had 6th in mind when the GK codex came out - maybe they didn't. Either way, 6th introduced FMCs to the game as a whole, leaving our NDK, a very specialised unit (Or is meant to be) kind of as one of a number of things capable of it's level of mobility. Many have better. It's not weak and I love them, but a points reduction, aye.

3/ Stormraven. Initially ours and the Blood Angels. Now C:SM gets them and with - in my opinion - better missiles. Some disagree, but in my mind we no longer have a Chapter unique flyer. C:SM have it better with being able to take cheaper Stormtalons to escort them. We are left trailing now. Furthermore - our Interceptors could jump with precision from them. With a teleport pack it's easy to see how - yet to fall 'in-line' with C:SM - they've lost that ability. Changes to other Codexes directly weakening ours and leaving them looking like the older version of ...

4/ Deep Striking. Supposedly our signature ability when fighting our enemies. Deep Strike in with pinpoint accuracy and smash face. With many of our units having it - this is how it was portrayed in game. Yet DA then came along and Belial and his posse show us how it's really done. Him and his unit are better at it than we are. The advent of another Codex which left ours looking like the poor version of it. Leaving us behind while other Chapters take our signature ability.

5/ The Callidus Assassin. Explosive entry from reserve, just can't assault now from reserve despite the method of entry - INSIDE - an enemy unit. Riiight I used to like the Callidus. A bit sacrificial, but removing the ability to assault hurt big time.

6/Skyfire - or lack of. Thanks GW. A Psyfleman could have had that, or Purgation Squads - and still been fluffy and in context. Nope - we're left feeling old and out dated where anyone in another Codex these days can pack missiles to target flyers. They may not be great - but they're an option.

7/ 'TGS' outflanking/scouting. We can now move our troops on from outflanking positions - RIGHT next to enemy units, we just can't punch them - because we're too exhausted after the flanking run perhaps? Seems a bit silly. 6th Edition making one of our abilities (And TGS is still good in other ways I admit) much more diluted. Not useless, but showing it's age.

We aren't a bad Codex. I can't stress that enough. I would laugh at any of the GK haters out there saying how I'm a whining player who doesn't know how good he has it. We are good and while 6th levelled the playing field a bit (I have no objection to this) - I hate that some of our features which were 'ours' have been done better and cheaper by other armies. This is how I see us being outdated or made to look ridiculous in certain regards.

[Sigvard]

The AA option for a Purgation Squad would make them an incredibly viable choice with my current meta. What with the Heldrake as 2 people play CSM, the new Tau additions, Nephilim Fighters and Necron 'Douchescythes' a unit working as an active deterrent for flyers would be exceptional for Gk Codex. There is even potential to further add to the Vindicare, potentially with a new Exitus round with Skyfire. Have it roll 2d6 for Armour Pen or something of the sort, but a sniper of such exceptional skill would seem to me like a perfect candidate for such a task.

 

I have to agree with the Justicar whole heartedly on this. All the things that should make the Codex:Grey Knights what it should be seem have been sold off for parts to all the other Space Marine Chapters, like GW have walked through the Fortress Monastary shouting bring out your dead. Again as the Justicar said this is not say that we have a bad Codex or even a mediocre one, we just have a Codex that with a lot of the new introductions in 40k finds itself somewhat short changed in the face of some of those changes.

 

Personally I love Grey Knights before I played 40k and they are the reason for me getting involved in the game itself and I really just don't want to see the 6th Edition books leaving them in the dust, because they are just to damn awesome.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about the horrific inability to combat anything in the air?

All codexes have that issue. It's something that GW should have focused on with their 5th to 6th update FAQs for all armies. But they wanted to sell more Fliers..

If you were referring to my comment about bringing GKs and Necrons in line asap - I wasn't talking about a nerf at all. I think GKs as far as the general powerlevel goes are very much in line with most of the new codizes. Still one of the stronger codizes out there but only by a margin.

Not personally. More still of the old stigma that seems to still be around that GK are ZOMG OP!!!oneone.

/ I would adjust the pricing or abilities of Venerable Dreadnoughts. As a priority. Hull Points directly got rid of the majority of the benefit of these guys. Sure you get slightly better stats, but the key to these guys is their ability to make the attacker re-roll the damage result. Now - who cares. 3 glances and you're out. Needs an update.

Yup. This and Hull points need an adjustment.

2/ The NDK Personal Teleporter price. Obviously I'm not AS bothered by it as you are, but you do make good points and I see where you are coming from. The price for this was introduced in the new Codex in 5th Edition. Maybe GW had 6th in mind when the GK codex came out - maybe they didn't. Either way, 6th introduced FMCs to the game as a whole, leaving our NDK, a very specialised unit (Or is meant to be) kind of as one of a number of things capable of it's level of mobility. Many have better. It's not weak and I love them, but a points reduction, aye.

Hehehe can only +1 this. ;)

3/ Stormraven. Initially ours and the Blood Angels. Now C:SM gets them and with - in my opinion - better missiles. Some disagree, but in my mind we no longer have a Chapter unique flyer. C:SM have it better with being able to take cheaper Stormtalons to escort them. We are left trailing now. Furthermore - our Interceptors could jump with precision from them. With a teleport pack it's easy to see how - yet to fall 'in-line' with C:SM - they've lost that ability. Changes to other Codexes directly weakening ours and leaving them looking like the older version of ...

At least we get Locator Beacons now... Seriosuly, I refuse to accept that DftS even exists. And the stupidly bad FAQ that changes Shadowied Skies...

/ugh.

4/ Deep Striking. Supposedly our signature ability when fighting our enemies. Deep Strike in with pinpoint accuracy and smash face. With many of our units having it - this is how it was portrayed in game. Yet DA then came along and Belial and his posse show us how it's really done. Him and his unit are better at it than we are. The advent of another Codex which left ours looking like the poor version of it. Leaving us behind while other Chapters take our signature ability.

Dangels always had Teleport Assault for a Turn 1 Deep Strike. They just nicked Dante's Precision Deep Strike. ;) We were the worst Deep Strikers for any Marine army, since our release.

5/ The Callidus Assassin. Explosive entry from reserve, just can't assault now from reserve despite the method of entry - INSIDE - an enemy unit. Riiight I used to like the Callidus. A bit sacrificial, but removing the ability to assault hurt big time.

The new Cally has always sucked compared to the old. :( And the 6th change of no assaults after coming in from reserves didn't just kill off Deldar WWP builds, but also cement the intent to make the Cally rather useless. ;( Can really add all the assassins to this, bar the Vindicare.

6/Skyfire - or lack of. Thanks GW. A Psyfleman could have had that, or Purgation Squads - and still been fluffy and in context. Nope - we're left feeling old and out dated where anyone in another Codex these days can pack missiles to target flyers. They may not be great - but they're an option.

Everyone's in the same boat. Bar Tau. ;)

7/ 'TGS' outflanking/scouting. We can now move our troops on from outflanking positions - RIGHT next to enemy units, we just can't punch them - because we're too exhausted after the flanking run perhaps? Seems a bit silly. 6th Edition making one of our abilities (And TGS is still good in other ways I admit) much more diluted. Not useless, but showing it's age.

Deldar WWP builds weep tears. ;)

[Justicar Enethys]

I think we're largely in agreement then. I do acknowledge that some of the stuff I list is merely a slightly bruised sense of pride as a GK player. We aren't alone in some of our ageing, sinking boats, but that doesn't make our position easier to stomach at times. We do still have a very strong Codex, one of the best I honestly believe - I just find the above points a mild frustration at times. 

 

Codex creep used to make the latest Codex the most powerful and all before it weep with envy. It was an accepted and disliked fact by all except the 'Bandwagon Jumpers' (Who do in turn keep GW stores open and running thanks to their incessant shoveling of funds into GW - so I am grateful ;) ) . However, our Codex has taken the knocks it has and been placed on the back-burner because of other Codexes who aren't even better than us necessarily. My best example for this is the Stormraven reaching the C:SM. They now have it - with better missiles I might add - and as a result our guys who have been using them far longer have forgotten how to teleport out of them accurately? One is nothing to do with, and should have no effect on, the other. They introduced a blanket nerf to all our Stormravens because the Ultramarines, for one, can now field them. Thank you very **ck*** much GW. Way to completely disregard everyone else who came before and made the Stormraven popular to appease the poster boys. Of course, now they have better Stormravens AND another, cheaper flyer they can use as Escort for them. While we sit here and work out what went wrong with our Personal Teleporters  . . . 

[mycnh]

Here's a thought - how about the Libby's Shrouding power ... actually provide Shrouding!

[Inquisitor Fox]

I really miss proper Inquisitorial Storm Troopers as a Troops choice (as do most, it seems).  Other than that, I think a Grey Knight Storm Talon would be really spiffy... with psybolt ammunition for the "assault cannon".  Our Storm Ravens are FA so it'd be a slot competition, but it could be fun.  The thing I really would want is the ability to put a Brother Captain or Grand Master in a Dreadknight harness... bwahahahaha!  Eat THAT Daemon! ;)

[thade]

Brother Captain in a DK harness. I like it.

[Justicar Enethys]

I really miss proper Inquisitorial Storm Troopers as a Troops choice (as do most, it seems). Other than that, I think a Grey Knight Storm Talon would be really spiffy... with psybolt ammunition for the "assault cannon". Our Storm Ravens are FA so it'd be a slot competition, but it could be fun. The thing I really would want is the ability to put a Brother Captain or Grand Master in a Dreadknight harness... bwahahahaha! Eat THAT Daemon!

I think I was one of the minority of people at it's release (And ever since) who actually really liked the Stormtalon in pretty much every respect. People complained about the aesthetics, the potential armaments it could take, the fact it couldn't escort Deep Striking units etc - but I have to say I think it's fantastic. My C:SM army (Currently 12,000 miles away from me ) has 2 of them.

If I could have ONE addition to the GK Codex - it would be this. A GK Stormraven arriving from reserve escorted by a GK Stormtalon. Yesh please x 100 I don't like allies so I refuse to get one into my list that way. They (C:SM) got our SR, we should get their ST I own ~ 4,000 points of Vanilla Marines and they are a great Codex still, just needing bringing in line with 6th a little. They shouldn't get to keep having things from other Chapters as they feel they don't get the shinies. It's a tired old argument disproved a hundred times over. I would love an AV13 Dread, or TH/SS Terminators in my list. However, I play GK happily and accept that they get their bonuses, we get ours. But if you're going to get our Stormravens, after the fact, (Better missiles on yours AND our rules regarding disembarking Interceptors from them were nerfed in an effort to 'streamline' things - pffft) then us getting a Stormtalon seems fair enough

[Aethernitas]

I really miss proper Inquisitorial Storm Troopers as a Troops choice (as do most, it seems). Other than that, I think a Grey Knight Storm Talon would be really spiffy... with psybolt ammunition for the "assault cannon". Our Storm Ravens are FA so it'd be a slot competition, but it could be fun. The thing I really would want is the ability to put a Brother Captain or Grand Master in a Dreadknight harness... bwahahahaha! Eat THAT Daemon!

+1 on the Stormtroopers

I don't like the idea to include Storm Talons in the GK codex. Actually I'm generally against watering down the unique character of codizes by giving everything to everyone. A Stormtalon has no real place in a GK strikeforce. Why use a small gunship without transport capacity or any special advantages versus daemons if you have something like the Stormraven? I already hated the fact that GW makes the Stormraven available to everyone and their mother. Grey Knights are already too much of a run-of-the-mill SM army (especially in looks and army composition - again ignoring Mr.You-have-to-take-me-to-play-a-fluffy-army Cotaez) with some gimmicks (NDK, Psi, Grenades) for good measure. Thats one of the trade-offs we had to take for getting a codex focused on GK instead of the Ordo Malleus. As I have stated more than once in this forum: I don't like the way GW is going with the whole Inquisition.

A quick comment on the Stormraven and it's missiles: I'm glad that they have at least let us keep our Mindstrike missiles. Those are unique in their ability to take care of psykers by sniping them with a very high degree of reliability and they don't have an equivalent in our or any other army. I'd rather keep those than trade it for something everyone has in slightly different versions.

[Justicar Enethys]

Regarding the missiles - I'm not saying they aren't useful or characterful - but what I am saying is that after the C:SM forces got our Stormraven - they actually got a better all round missile on theirs. They improved overall on our one. It would be nice to have options on the missiles - but hey ho.

As for Stormtalons - it's redundant arguing whether we should get them or not because we don't have them and won't get them. However, from a list building and modelling perspective - they would be nice to have. You can go on all you like about fluff and how we shouldn't have this or shouldn't have that, but when you think about it, why do we have Land Raiders? Why do we have Stormravens? Why do we have tracked transports at all? In the fluff, we are always teleporting in precisely and wasting targets or boarding ships and taking out Daemonic influences and manifestations - we don't have Thunderhawk transporters carrying our bulky stuff down to reinforce our entrenched positions. We aren't a siege or line fighting army. We don't usually take part in grand scale, protracted land campaigns. Obviously we can be involved in such engagements where we need transporters to bring tanks and vehicles down for more protracted fights, but in those situations - a Stormtalon would also be appropriate - ferrying in and escorting the transporters, supplies, equipment etc. It's just as appropriate as anything else we have really. A reason/explanation/justification can more than easily be created/found. In those situations - your fluff reasoning doesn't stand up. Why would we need a fast gunship targetting the enemy and their flyers when we already have a Stormraven? Ummm, because it would be abundantly useful in protecting the Stormraven (Escort rule anyone?) and providing AA cover as well as ground strafing runs as well

I like each army to have it's own theme and unique toys. I really do. But when ours start being given out for no reason whatsoever, it leaves us a little behind and that annoys me - especially in a case where 'their' model would be very useful in game and is a nice model (IMO). Fluff has its place, but the fact that in game it would be VERY useful, makes it annoying we can't have it - but 'they' can have 'ours'. 40K is open to any style of player. Casual, fluffy, all-round, semi-competitive, fully competitive, hardcore rules lawyers and hardcore gamers who don't care about fluff but want a tactical wargame and nothing else. And for all those in between or who I haven't categorised. Just because someone doesn't like it for fluff reasons (Though that is hard to justify anyway) doesn't mean all those other players who aren't so bothered about fluff should miss out.

This is a kind of wish list thread. I put up my views strictly in that light. I am not petitioning to get Stormtalons or anything else, just venting/wishing openly and supporting those comments with my views why

[Aethernitas]

Damn... I just typed a whole wall of text as response and then 'something' happened and all of it was gone

Too damn tired (4am) to type it all again.

I'd it comes down to where individuals draw the line between "I want this <unit> for my <army>" and "this <unit> is too much of a stretch for my <army>".

[Justicar Enethys]

Indeed. For example - neither you or I are keen on Coteaz in our lists whereas many swear by him. I am just not too much of a fan of named characters in general. However - we have the option not to take him if we choose - and don't. Him being in the Codex is irrelevant to me. He may as well not exist. This principle would apply to the Stormtalon as well for those that don't want it, were it an inclusion in our Codex. I'd rather have our own thing rather than a straight up copy - but I love the Stormtalon model (It's my 41st Millennium Apache Gunship ).

We won't get it - and that's maybe for the best - but considering our lack of AA options beyond the ubiquitous ADL (Which I dislike as it forces a stationary play style - at least in part, which I don't think fits GK at all), and the now common as muck Stormraven, I think it would be a nice toy to add to the list. However, my dreams won't be coming true in this regard - but I'm happy enough with my GK anyway. As a wish list goes - this'd be right up there though

[Full_ork]

 

More still of the old stigma that seems to still be around that GK are ZOMG OP!!!oneone.

 

Well, that stigma still exists since alot of what you guys get is cheaper when compared to at least the older codex's, and in alot of ways better.

 

Psybolts give you the psygnoughts, and basicly weaker heavybolters on your basic troops for just a few points. The dreadknight is cheap for what it does (though faqing it would fix that), you guys were also the first to have a nonspecial character lvl 3. Alot of your marine stuff feels like a +1 compared to your origional counterparts.

 

Granted, you guys did get hit harder then most, expecially since your power weapons which you have alot of got nerfed to ap3 and your lack of antiflyer support has givven newer codexs a edge against you.

 

For the record, I'm not saying you guys are completely broken, with proper tatics you guys can be countered, but I can see why you guys still have the stigma of being oped, prior to the rules change you guys praticly had it all. It'll go away as more codex's get updated.

 

Havn't played the new necrons yet to know if they are still in the same boat as you guys.

[Aethernitas]

 

Well, that stigma still exists since alot of what you guys get is cheaper when compared to at least the older codex's, and in alot of ways better.

 

 

Would you mind specifying which "older codizes" you mean, what things we get cheaper than it and in which ways those are better? It's hard to respond to such generalized statements ;)

 

 

Psybolts give you the psygnoughts, and basicly weaker heavybolters on your basic troops for just a few points. The dreadknight is cheap for what it does (though faqing it would fix that), you guys were also the first to have a nonspecial character lvl 3. Alot of your marine stuff feels like a +1 compared to your origional counterparts.

 

 

I don't like Psyfleman and aI don't play them but I don't think they are too cheap or something. Maybe +5 points or something. The "weaker heavy bolters" you are talking about cost 20pts and the apart from the strenght-value it has little in common with a heavy bolter. The cost efficiency depends on how big the squad is you buy it for as the 20pts is a fixed price and doesn't scale with the squad size. Therefore it's quite expensive for 5 guys but a very good trade if you have a 10 man squad. That we were the first with the OPTION for a mastery 3 psyker is probably just because by then GW had agreed to use the mastery system as the new way to go.

 

For the record, I'm not saying you guys are completely broken, with proper tatics you guys can be countered, but I can see why you guys still have the stigma of being oped, prior to the rules change you guys praticly had it all. It'll go away as more codex's get updated.

 

Thank god - so in your eyes "we" are just moderatly broken :P

 

I'm aware that many players still think of GKs as the ultimate no brainer op army. Even in my own gaming group we have some of those who are still in that mindset. I don't blame them considering how we dominated 5th edition. If you get demolished by GKs so many times with no silver lining in sight that experience seeps in but contrary to your opinion I don't think it will simply go away when more codizes get updated to 6th. I think only a new GK codex can really fix that because of reasons you can find all over this and other threads.

 

 

Havn't played the new necrons yet to know if they are still in the same boat as you guys.

 

 

Imo Necrons are at the top of the foodchain right now.

[Full_ork]

By older codex's I ment anything before necrons/greyknights.

 

 

The "weaker heavy bolters" you are talking about cost 20pts and the apart from the strenght-value it has little in common with a heavy bolter. The cost efficiency depends on how big the squad is you buy it for as the 20pts is a fixed price and doesn't scale with the squad size. Therefore it's quite expensive for 5 guys but a very good trade if you have a 10 man squad. That we were the first with the OPTION for a mastery 3 psyker is probably just because by then GW had agreed to use the mastery system as the new way to go.

 

By heavybolter I ment a multishot strength 5 weapon. And 20 points to upgrade basic troops is cheap, expecially if you take a full squad of 10 and combat squad them. Then it's basicly 10 points for strength 5.

 

 

I don't like Psyfleman and aI don't play them but I don't think they are too cheap or something.

 

They are when compared to their other marine counterparts. 4 Str8 autcannon shots is pretty huge, for just a few points added on.

 

 

Thank god - so in your eyes "we" are just moderatly broken

 

 

Well I think you guys still have it over alot of the older armies, but 6th has helped make you guys beatable. Furthermore I think the newer books are alot closer in power right now so that helps.

 

 

 but contrary to your opinion I don't think it will simply go away when more codizes get updated to 6th.

 

 

Well look at the new Tau book for instance, alot of stuff for it was fixed where it now can hold it's own against greyknights and their ilk. It just seems like most of the new dex's so far have shot up in power compared to their old counterparts, which helps even the playing field against greyknights. When more armies start being able to hold their own, I see the stigma leaving.

 

 

Would you mind specifying which "older codizes" you mean, what things we get cheaper than it and in which ways those are better? It's hard to respond to such generalized statements

 

 

It just seems like you guys get what other marines get plus more for around the same cost or cheaper. I mean it's how it is, but I was just saying that that is part of the reason you guys are labeled broken. The dreadknight comes to mind, it's cheaper then most mc's and alot stronger. Your basic greyknights with psybolts can outshoot most marines squads and are about the same cost. And in many cases can close combat them as well. 

 

This edition hurt you guys a bit as I've stated, expecially with the change to power weapons, since you guys get all power weapons.

 

And I'm aware you are the first with a nonspecial char lvl 3 because you guys were deisnged when that was starting up, but it doesn't change that it was an advantage. Other armies are getting them now, which is why I said the new books for the most part seem to bridge the gap in difference in power. Eventually almost every army with psychers will get a lvl 3 if not all of them, so I don't see it a huge ordeal.

 

 

Imo Necrons are at the top of the foodchain right now.

 

 

I've heard they can get like 5 flyers in 1500 points? That seems like alot, expecially how how strong their flyers are.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

By older codex's I ment anything before necrons/greyknights.

 

ML Longfangs, Rune Priests, TH/SS Terminators, Frag Cannon/Blood Talon Dreads (or AV13 Dreads), are all examples of stuff that's generally deemed as 'good' that we don't get cheaper or better.

 

As we just don't get it.

 

We get Storm Bolters on Power Armoued Guys cheaper.  But not by much (21 point WolfGuard).  We get Power Weapons cheaper.  And we have a whole package rolled into one no other Marine army can match.

 

But there are downsides.

 

Sure, every marine has a Power Weapon! But on a A1 mini.

 

Every Marine has a Storm Bolter (and the disparity between those and regular Bolters was lessened with the Rapid Fire change), but none of our Marines can get a Ranged Weapon higher than AP4 (unless you roll a 6).

 

What you've focused on is actually the stuff that makes us good, and makes us attractive over using other Marines.  Why take a GK Raxorback?  Becuase for only 10 points more than usual, we get a S6 one.

 

Why take a GK Dread?  Becuase for equivalent cost, we get S8 Autocannons.

 

If we didn't, with allies, there would be little reason to use a lot of what is in our Codex, when you can just ally in better units from other Marines dexes instead.

 

 

By heavybolter I ment a multishot strength 5 weapon.

 

Old Tau had S5 multie shot weapons on thier troops. ;)  New Tau still do.

 

Well I think you guys still have it over alot of the older armies

 

In 5th, Space Wolves and IG were king.  Not GK (and Dameons for a brief moment when they uber buffed Flamers).  In 6th Necrons, IG and Chaos are king.  Due to Flyers and Blobs.

 

Some of the old dexes were woeful (like 'nids), which isn't anything to do with our dex really.  And then 6th came and shafted others (like WWP Deldar).  Again, nothing really to do with our dex.

 

It just seems like most of the new dex's so far have shot up in power compared to their old counterparts

 

Conversley, I see a lot of sentiment that the newer dexes are all rather bland and downpowered when compared to Necrons (and GK for some reason...).  That 'codex creep' has now stopped.  And that Dark Angels aren't anywhere near as powerful as Necrons or Chaos.  Even if you have a 50 man 4++ Blob.

 

It just seems like you guys get what other marines get plus more for around the same cost or cheaper.

 

Which is so wrong it's shocking.  We don't get Missile Launchers (bar on a Dread).  Or Plasma, or Melta, or Storm Shields, or Land Speeders, or Preds, or Drop Pods, or, or.  The list of what 'other marines' get that we don't is staggering.

 

Yet for some reason the focus remains on every GK gets a Power Weapon.  Which isn't really that great on a 1A mini.

 

I've heard they can get like 5 flyers in 1500 points? That seems like alot, expecially how how strong their flyers are.

 

That is rather the tip of the iceberg.  The main issue with Scythes is that they are potently distructive, and keep their transported units totally and utterly safe from any harm, at all.  Even if they are destroyed.

 

And you can still disembark while zooming for last turn objective grabs.

 

No other transport, let alone no other flyer, can provide that.

 

But GK are OP.

[Aethernitas]

By heavybolter I ment a multishot strength 5 weapon. And 20 points to upgrade basic troops is cheap, expecially if you take a full squad of 10 and combat squad them. Then it's basicly 10 points for strength 5.

Right - but you forget that GKs are very dependant on their special weapons and therefor you pay 20 points to raise the strength by one for 8 guys. Thats the ideal scenario and I agree (as I did before) that it is very cost effective. It's also one of the things thats a left-over from 5th edition and will most likely change when we get out 6th edition codex.

They are when compared to their other marine counterparts. 4 Str8 autcannon shots is pretty huge, for just a few points added on.

Yeah right. Then again DA pay 20 points less for two TL autocannons (so only S7 and no psyker) and get a reasonably priced Venerable version.

Well I think you guys still have it over alot of the older armies, but 6th has helped make you guys beatable. Furthermore I think the newer books are alot closer in power right now so that helps.

'Beatable'? It's not like GKs were unbeatable at any point but I would be the first to agree that the codex inner workings were not at all balanced for 5th. In 6th I would say we are in the strong middle field and far from unbeatable.

Well look at the new Tau book for instance, alot of stuff for it was fixed where it now can hold it's own against greyknights and their ilk. It just seems like most of the new dex's so far have shot up in power compared to their old counterparts, which helps even the playing field against greyknights. When more armies start being able to hold their own, I see the stigma leaving.

True. Many good and balanced codizes were released lately and in terms of powerlevel they are all in very close proximity but in case of the Daemon codex (which is imo a totally fine codex by itself contrary to the beleives of some here) it's again a matter of left-over funky stuff the GKs retain from their 5th edition codex that makes the GK/Daemon matchup not even close to balanced. Those are the things that really need to get fixed and those can only be fixed with a ned Codex.

It just seems like you guys get what other marines get plus more for around the same cost or cheaper. I mean it's how it is, but I was just saying that that is part of the reason you guys are labeled broken. The dreadknight comes to mind, it's cheaper then most mc's and alot stronger. Your basic greyknights with psybolts can outshoot most marines squads and are about the same cost. And in many cases can close combat them as well.

This edition hurt you guys a bit as I've stated, expecially with the change to power weapons, since you guys get all power weapons.

And I'm aware you are the first with a nonspecial char lvl 3 because you guys were deisnged when that was starting up, but it doesn't change that it was an advantage. Other armies are getting them now, which is why I said the new books for the most part seem to bridge the gap in difference in power. Eventually almost every army with psychers will get a lvl 3 if not all of them, so I don't see it a huge ordeal.

It seems to me that you just repeat what others are complaining about. Have you ever taken a look yourself? I don't even know why I am the one discussing this with you as we have many other forum members that could probably shed a better light on the "why's" and "how's" than me.

Fact is that we are pretty much everything in our army list is more expensive than the vanilla SM equivalent (tough I prefer to compare with DA cuz they've already been updated to 6th). Our cheapest standards cost 20 points. A DA tactical sqaud SM costs 14. In terms of "how fast they die" the only advantage a PAGK (power armour Grey Knight) has compared with said DA marine is a 5+ Deny the Witch instead of a 6+. Apart from that both have the exact same defensive capabilities. Going forward from that example I propose that you inform yourself a little more on the matter before stating things like the above.

We all get FORCE weapons. Thats why Daemons and Nids hate us so much

I didn't think it was an huge ordeal ever. We have to pay 50 points to upgrade from 2 to 3 (thats double of what most other psykers pay per level) and apart from that there have been already some other models that could use 3 psychic powers per turn. The difference is that for them it wasn't written as "mastery lvl 3" but instead the rules could be found in equipment or other special rules.

edit: added the emphasis - GL is the perfect guy for this job

[Full_ork]

Quote

Yeah right. Then again DA pay 20 points less for two TL autocannons (so only S7 and no psyker) and get a reasonably priced Venerable version.

And what about the others? DA are part of what I was talking about where they got brought up in power and thus you hear less complaints about greyknights when compared to the new books. Something I see continuing.

 

Quote

Yea right - but you forget that GKs are very dependant on their special weapons and therefor you pay 20 points to raise the strength by one for 8 guys. Thats the ideal scenario and I agree (as I did before) that it is very cost effective. It's also one of the things thats a left-over from 5th edition and will most likely change when we get out 6th edition codex.

I don't know if it'll change that much, I mean it is pretty unique to your army, the only change I could see happening is psybolts get scaled based on the squad size.

 

Quote

True. Many good and balanced codizes were released lately and in terms of powerlevel they are all in very close proximity but in case of the Daemon codex (which is imo a totally fine codex by itself contrary to the beleives of some here) it's again a matter of left-over funky stuff the GKs retain from their 5th edition codex that makes the GK/Daemon matchup not even close to balanced. Those are the things that really need to get fixed and those can only be fixed with a ned Codex.

Can't speak for daemons, they are the only new dex I havn't played against or seen yet. At least a greyknight player can't prevent them from playing with that antideepstirke ability. But that was more a flaw with the daemon codex then it was the greyknight one.

 

But that's all I was trying to say, the new dex's are going up in power and are compatible with each other and seem like they can hold their own against greyknights.

 

Quote

It seems to me that you just repeat what others are complaining about. Have you ever taken a look yourself

Yes I have, which is why I came to the conclusions I did. Expecially with the dreadknight being so cheap in points compared to other monsters creatures of it's power. Granted, havn't faced the riptide yet, so my oppion on that could change when I do.

[Full_ork]

 

What you've focused on is actually the stuff that makes us good, and makes us attractive over using other Marines. Why take a GK Raxorback? Becuase for only 10 points more than usual, we get a S6 one.

 

Why take a GK Dread? Becuase for equivalent cost, we get S8 Autocannons.

 

If we didn't, with allies, there would be little reason to use a lot of what is in our Codex, when you can just ally in better units from other Marines dexes instead.

I personally think Allies have hurt the game, but that's another story.

 

Is it equilvent cost? That isn't as bad then, I must have misread it and saw it as cheaper then your typical las/ml dread. Since it's basicly 4 ml krak shots.

 

Havn't seen any local player use razorbacks, so can't comment on that one.

 

Old Tau had S5 multie shot weapons on thier troops. New Tau still do.

True, but firewarriors are alot more fragile. And require 15 inches instead of 24. I guess I must play on a smaller table where that seems to make a difference the 9 inches.

 

Sure, every marine has a Power Weapon! But on a A1 mini

They lost true grit? The local Greyknight player must have misread the codex then, that's not so bad if it's just one attack.

 

Conversley, I see a lot of sentiment that the newer dexes are all rather bland and downpowered when compared to Necrons (and GK for some reason...).

Well at least around here, necrons and greyknights are conisdered the top 2, or at least they were in 5th.

 

From what you guys are telling me, it seems like only you guys got hit hard.

 

In 5th, Space Wolves and IG were king.

Outside of one build I don't remember guard dominating. And I know space wolves are strong, but I always heard they were under necrons and greyknights in 5th.

[Justicar Enethys]

While we benefitted in some ways due to 6th (For example - Dreadknights) we did largely get toned down. I do like the fact that the newer Codexes have more answers to us. I don't mind losing if the games are fun and I enjoy a challenge far more than a kerb stomp of the opposition every game, as was so often the case in 5th. I dislike the fact the 'GW are so OP - oMGZ - newb codex' stigma has drawn out so long when we have been nerf batted considerably in 6th. Newer Codexes giving us a run for our money these days is a good thing - though good players always could make us work hard for the win

As for your local GW player - if he's trying to pass off True Grit on you still - he didn't misread things. He's outright cheating. Guaranteed.

[thade]

As for your local GW player - if he's trying to pass off True Grit on you still - he didn't misread things. He's outright cheating. Guaranteed.

No offense, but this is a bit of an aggressive assertion to make; he or she may be riding on a bad assumption. No reason to assume that the player is willfully cheating without cause. I'd still point out that GK don't have True Grit anymore though.