Aethernitas Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Primarily I hope they: 1. Retcon some of the more outlandish background material. 2. Develop the Teleport Assault army theme and better incorporate/integrate that into the army list and tabletop. 3. Differentiate the redundant units (e.g. Give the Brother Captain option for Artificer Armour and Personal Teleporter. 4. Improve/redesign the subpar units to make them all worthwhile (I.e. there should be no "throwaway units" nor any "no-brainer" units; make all equally viable. 1. Seeing how the retcon and in other places dream up something completely new I would say it's a save bet that the fluff will change quite significatnly in our next incarnation. 2. I wouldn't restrict it on teleporting as (according to the fluff) GKs often use other means to to get where they are needed. The common element is the precision of the execution of those attacks. So I guess hwat I wanna say is: I totally agree with your point but I'd like to keep the other non-teleport options too (Stormraven, Land Raider and so on). 3. and 4. I don't think there are many redundant or subpar units in our codex so those are not really priorities for me and instead more like the icing on the cake if they manage to make all of them viable choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Redundant/Sub par units for me; HQ; Mordrak Stern Crowe Brother-Captain Brotherhood Champion Inquisitor Valeria Elite; Techmarine Venerable Dreadnought Callidus Assassin Eversor Assassin Culuxes Assassin Arco-flagellant Banisher Daemonhost Mystic Troops; Justicar Anval Thawn Not really 'redundant', but needs improvement; Grey Knight Terminators (6th closed the gap slightly, I still feel there's not enough distinction from Strikes) No-brainer units; HQ; Inquisitor Lord Coteaz Elite; Warrior Accolytes with Storm Bolters Dedicated Transports; Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammunition That's probably everything, but it's late. ;) I'm sure there will be disagreements about what's on my list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Redundant/Sub par units for me; HQ; Mordrak Stern Crowe Brother-Captain Brotherhood Champion Inquisitor Valeria Elite; Techmarine Venerable Dreadnought Callidus Assassin Eversor Assassin Culuxes Assassin Arco-flagellant Banisher Daemonhost Mystic Troops; Justicar Anval Thawn Not really 'redundant', but needs improvement; Grey Knight Terminators (6th closed the gap slightly, I still feel there's not enough distinction from Strikes) No-brainer units; HQ; Inquisitor Lord Coteaz Elite; Warrior Accolytes with Storm Bolters Dedicated Transports; Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammunition That's probably everything, but it's late. I'm sure there will be disagreements about what's on my list. Nice list. It actually demonstrates why our subpar units don't bother me that much. Sure the HQ choices need some work but we still have lot of great choices left. The other examples are mostly clumped together in the henchman slot or are mostly niche-choices anyway. It doesn't have to be this way but as I said those are not too high on my personal list of problems with our codex. Our bread & butter slots are all above average tough I would be the first to agree that the dreads and assassin need an overhaul. The only point where I really have to disagree is the one about the no-brainer units. I'm not exactly sure whet "no-brainer" means for you (something along the lines of "must have in every competitive list"?) but imo one of the biggest strenght of our codex is that we have no no-brainer (as in must-have) units and therefore we can field a wide variety of lists (tough the different units themselves are kinda homogeneous). If you mean "no-brainer" as in "most effective unit point for point" then I would definitely agree on Cotaez but apart from him I really can't name any others that stand out for me in this category. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 It's more that I have to argue with myself and reason away *why* I'm not taking Coteaz in every list, as he's so point efficient, and brings so much to the table, that if I want to build a list to win games, I'd be silly not to include him. Same for Razors. If I have squads that unlock them, I'd be silly not to take the 50 point Razor, as it's so good for it's cost it's detrimental not to. And SB Henchmen are so silly good for their cost it's unreal. I can't think of any other unit in the game that offers 2 S4 shots at 24" range for 7 points a pop. If they were BS4.... Oh my! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
soots Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 think the biggest things for me is storm shields and have draigo's sword ap2 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Yeah right - make Draigo even more Mary Sue than he already is. Better give him acceptable fluff that won't make my brain splorsh out through my ears. Against his arch-enemies (thats daemons - which are also probably the only enemies he was ever fighting since he got sucked into the warp, even on his vacations in realspace) he works perfectly well and he is even one of the chosen few who stand a (very small but still realistic) chance against Skarbrand and the Swarmlord. That he sucks against 2+ models is not really a concern. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Well, apart from all the Dameonic guys with 2+ Saves. ;) Oh hai abbadon! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I think if they gave skyfire option to the Purgation squads, say 8 pts a model, would fix some of our problems, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Change Astral Aim to give Skyfire. No point increase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Grey Knights were never meant to battle it out with Abbaddon and his CSM chums. GK were made to battle Chaos in it's purest and most dangerous form - daemons ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 How about Daemon Princes? I'm sure the Chaos Space MArine varients can get a 3+ armour save boosted to 2+ by a Boon, can't they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 hehe still trying :) nope they can't - there is a boon that gives armour saves but only a 3+ so that practically useless if you've already bought the 3+ for your prince. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Could have sworn the Chaos Techmarine guys could get to 2+ with it. :/ I'll have to dig out my 'dex and actually give it a read for once. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I think we are talking about two different things - my point is that nothing in the daemon codex comes to my mind that can get a 2+ armour safe. In the CSM dex has of course multiple options for 2+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3391994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 IS there really a difference between a Codex Daemon Daemon Prince and a Codex Chaos Space Marine Daemon Prince? If the GK are supposed to be kitted out to take out Daemon Princes (which they should be!) and one variant can get a 2+ Save (if they can, I'm sure there's a boon that grants +1 to your armour save, maybe the CSM DPs can no longer get a 3+ Save, can't remember). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3392020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I just sifted through the Chaos Daemons and the Chaos Space Marines Codex and I haven't found anything to give Daemon Princes a 2+ armour safe in either of those codizes. We are alos totally derailing this thread :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3392182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Just checked. Chaos Marine Daemon Princes can purchase Power Armour (3+ Save) and a Chaos Reward: Gift of Mutation. With a very lucky (and specific) roll on the Boon of Mutation table, a 35 gives you 'Mechaniod', which increase your Armour Save by 1. Daemon Prince with 2+ Save, immune to Draigos Awesome hand made Sword of Smiting Daemons. AP2 for Draigo please! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3392252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 2+ save on a tough single unit that can't hide in a unit...how would I kill him? Well, the way I kill 2+/3++ terminators is by hosing them down with as much rapid-fire as possible. That has promise when GK units can do that at 24". This also might be the one and only use-case I can think of for Psilencer spam. (Which, while being a bit silly, would be super effective and hilarious.) Actually, spam wouldn't be necessary; if I recall, the Psilencer wounds demons on 2+? Expect every six 2s or better you roll to elicit a 1 from him. In any case, Draigo is good but not stellar at killing; he's stellar at surviving. We have other means of dealing with the DP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3392319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethernitas Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Just checked. Chaos Marine Daemon Princes can purchase Power Armour (3+ Save) and a Chaos Reward: Gift of Mutation. With a very lucky (and specific) roll on the Boon of Mutation table, a 35 gives you 'Mechaniod', which increase your Armour Save by 1. Daemon Prince with 2+ Save, immune to Draigos Awesome hand made Sword of Smiting Daemons. AP2 for Draigo please! Damn. Well played good sir. You shall win the battle... but not the war! @Thade I dunno... he is pretty stellar in killing everything without an 2+ save and that includes a hell of a lot very dangerous models. I mean Bloodthirster? Them guys wreck lots o'faces but our bro Kaldor 'Lil Emphra' Draigo sure whoops them asses good. I actually really like that it is nearly a game of 'rock, paper, scissors' in that Bloodthirsters pwn many of those that in turn overpower Draigo in CC who in turn is able to slay the Great Daemon. Just like it should be :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3392425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 "No brainer" to me just means you don't have to think twice about taking them; they're the default good selections, and as you called them, our bread and butter units. They aren't mandatory, and you can certainly be successful without them, but the other options don't really compete well against them. GML provided a great list of those subpar units that really need some work. Unfortunately, the list he provided is like half of our unit choices, so we could really use a lot of design work to bring everything up to speed and make them all viable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275588-more-toys-for-the-knights/page/5/#findComment-3392445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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