Equipping DC or SG for allied detachments.

[Wulfebane]

Hello all. I've stepped away from the Fang and my army of Wolves to ruffle a few feathers in this hen coop.

 

Just kidding. ;)

 

I'm actually rather keen on adding some assault squads to my Wolves that aren't gimped in melee, so thought I'd add an allied detachment of BA that can actually melee.

 

I want to take some DC and a Furioso in a stormraven and some SG. I already have all the bits for building atleast 5 DC and 5 SG, but I'm conflicted on loadouts.

 

What are standard loadouts for a 5man squad of DC? Would the loadout change much if the squad increased to 10? Are jumppacks necessary when they're deployed via raven? Are boltguns viable for DC or should they all trade in for ccws, or a mix?

 

For the SG, are the deathmasks mandatory? Are pfists or the inferno pistol?

 

Appreciate any insights given. As I indicated, I have enough for 5 DC but will likely increase that number, but wanna know whether to stock up on jump packs or not.

[Sviox]

Hello all. I've stepped away from the Fang and my army of Wolves to ruffle a few feathers in this hen coop.

Just kidding.

I'm actually rather keen on adding some assault squads to my Wolves that aren't gimped in melee, so thought I'd add an allied detachment of BA that can actually melee.

I want to take some DC and a Furioso in a stormraven and some SG. I already have all the bits for building atleast 5 DC and 5 SG, but I'm conflicted on loadouts.

What are standard loadouts for a 5man squad of DC? Would the loadout change much if the squad increased to 10? Are jumppacks necessary when they're deployed via raven? Are boltguns viable for DC or should they all trade in for ccws, or a mix?

For the SG, are the deathmasks mandatory? Are pfists or the inferno pistol?

Appreciate any insights given. As I indicated, I have enough for 5 DC but will likely increase that number, but wanna know whether to stock up on jump packs or not.

If you run your DC exclusively with the raven ride, don't bother with jump packs as they are horribly expensive (in points). The bigger the squad, the better. A good loadout depends on the HQ your running the squad with (if you are). Without HQ and only 5 guys, I would take something along:

-1 with power fist and bolter

-1 with power sword

-3 meatbags with bolt pistols and ccw

The point is that you get quite close with SR so you need to focus on close combat first, not shooting. In case you use 10 man, add a few guys with boltgun, maybe a single inferno pistol and perhaps even use thunder hammer instead of fist. I wouldn't bother tooling these guys up too much, otherwise it's a huge black hole sucking all your points.

Bolters are mostly useful with DC if you ever run them inside a rhino (likely to break up and a couple of guys can shoot from the top hatch), but it's good to include a few in bigger raven transported squads as well.

Haven't used SG too much, but I'd say with these guys go for the death masks and also take the banner for +1A. Other than that, don't overspend - maybe add in a single inferno pistol.

[BAHERSH]

Well first off, welcome brother

 

You have a lot of questions and ultimately there are many ways you can add some BA to your army. DC are somewhat expensive, once you add JP's. If you want them to function as an elite CC unit, I think jump packs are the way to go. A good ratio is 1 P Fist for 5 - 10 DC, so grab one, and get chainswords/ bolt pistols for the rest. If you want to go with a 10 man squad, a drop pod with boltguns may be more suitable. Personally, I don't recommend placing them in a raven,  cuz if it goes down before you can assault, so do your DC (SS/ TH termies are better for ravens).

 

The basic AM's are not spectacular in CC. Rather their survivability with a Sang Priest and mobility make them effective. If you want CC specialists, Mephiston is a beast, or else go with DC and a Reclusiarch, which will basically function as an elite slot/ HQ.

 

If you decide to drop pod DC, prepare to be shot up quickly (most players truly fear DC). If you want to use a transport, Land Raiders are the way to go.

 

Honestly, I find sanguinary guard to be mediocre. If you want to use them effectively, get Dante to make them scoring units, and don't go with the DC. IMO, DC and Sang Guard are an either/ or unit. It's hard to make both work in one list.

[Morticon]

Sang guard are just too poorly priced and have no option of bulking their numbers, meaning they lose combat effectiveness super quickly.

 

DC are incredible, but as noted, with packs- just way too cost prohibitive.  

Pods are viable, but specific to certain lists and also have weaknesses.  

Rhinos are sadly greatly, greatly reduced in efficiency now too.  

If you like landraiders, thats maybe not a bad option.  

 

I usually like a fist on the DC + 1 axe in an 8man squad or so.  If im all sorted for fists in my list, i will throw in 3 axes and make them the troop killers.

[Squirrelloid]

Now that Thunder Hammers no longer automatically stun vehicles, are they still worth the +5 points over a PF?  (I think I'd go with PFs over THs whenever I handed out upgrades...)

[BAHERSH]

Sadly, I don't see the value in TH's anymore, unless you're playing nids or other armies with numerous MC's, and even then, the 5 points may be better spent on another melta bomb somewhere... It's really a shame, cuz the new DC Thunder Hammer looks sweet. I think they should have given it an additional bonus to make it worth the pts (i.e.: +1 Strength or + 1 Attacks to a P Fist)

[Leonaides]

Sang Guard - dont bother with the Death Masks, if you're charging a unit where it is useful, they're usually already got a good Ld so unlikely to fail it often enough to make it a worthwhile investment. Its an opportunistic upgrade, and for that many points its just not good enough.

 

Take 2 Axes, 3 Swords or 1 Axe/1PF and 3 Swords to give you a good number of anti-power armour attacks at Initiative (same justifications as the LC/TH+SS ratio on terminators). Add in an Inferno pistol (or 2 if you really have no better use for the points elsewhere) as an optional extra capability just in case you need to try and pop some armour without charging it.

[Wulfebane]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

 

Since this will be an allied detachment, a large part in deciding on BA was to have access to a stormraven. So all of the DP/LR suggestions are appreciated, but I'll be givng those rides to my Wolves. Same goes for anything in TDA. ;-)

 

So its common to mix bolter DC with 2x ccw DC? I think I might like that loadout. Gunna take the suggestion of no JPs and 1 pfist for now, given the stormraven transport. And in case it matters, they will be joined by a librarian HQ and likely a sang priest. I'm in the process of building them and will post a pic when done.

 

So SG seem to be ill-favored. Would the models transition well to vanguard vets? Any suggestions on their loadouts?

[Quixus]

And in case it matters, they will be joined by a librarian HQ and likely a sang priest. I'm in the process of building them and will post a pic when done.

A Sanguinary priest will do nothing for the DC. They already have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. The errata document also limited the bubble to units from C:BA. In 5th I would have suggested to replace the Librarian with a Reclusiarch. Given Prescience I'm not so sure.

[Wulfebane]

 

And in case it matters, they will be joined by a librarian HQ and likely a sang priest. I'm in the process of building them and will post a pic when done.

A Sanguinary priest will do nothing for the DC. They already have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. The errata document also limited the bubble to units from C:BA. In 5th I would have suggested to replace the Librarian with a Reclusiarch. Given Prescience I'm not so sure.

Forgot about this. Thanks!

 

Is a chaplain an adequate substitute for reclusiarch in this scenario or is the statline necessary? For an extra 30pts, it does seem like a bargain, just making sure I'm not missing anything.

[Quixus]

Is a chaplain an adequate substitute for reclusiarch in this scenario or is the statline necessary? For an extra 30pts, it does seem like a bargain, just making sure I'm not missing anything.

Yes, you can use a chaplain as well, I simply suggested the reclusiarch, because you need an HQ anyways. The Chaplain is an Elite choice in C:BA.

If you transport the DC in a Stormraven, think about Lemartes, regardless whether the other black guys get a Jump Pack or not.

[BAHERSH]

You could go with a chaplain, but as mentioned above, you'll need an HQ choice anyway, so unless you want to take a librarian/ special character, reclusiarchs are the way to go (I personally feel chaplains are a waste of pts - in particular, they're Initiative 4 as opposed to Reclusiarchs I 5).

 

You can definitely mix boltguns with bolt pistols/ chainswords, but I think it's better to specify the role in which you want DC to function. If you intend to engage in CC from a Stormraven, I think the extra CC attack should be the focal point. Plus you can run in the shooting phase and assault afterwards. Keep in mind, if the Stormraven is shot down, the DC all take a S 10, no armor save hit (thus no FnP save as well). Basically, they're all going to die - hence my skepticism towards that strategy. As I mentioned, SS/ TH termies are pretty much the only unit I feel safe deploying in a SR, since they have a 3++ save, and can survive a crash. But if you have a good distraction, you may be able to pull it off.

 

I still think JP's/ Drop Pods/ Land Raiders are the three best ways to go. Use bolters for drop pods and cc weapons for the other options. If you're dropping DC or using JP's, a librarian with 5+ cover save via Shield of Sanguinius is a viable option instead of the Reclusiarch.

 

Sure, you can use SG for veteran models (unless you are playing in tournies). The problem with veterans is pretty much the same as DC - they are expensive and require JP's. They pretty much have one function - Heroic Intervention. If you can safety Deep Strike the unit into an assault, they may be an effective force for disrupting enemy units, but I find that they are too expensive to risk using.

 

With all of this said, CC units are just harder to use in 6th edition. I think the most effective strategy may be taking 10 DC and 2 DC dreadnoughts in drop pods, giving you the option to drop 2 pods on turn 1. If you take bolters and heavy flamers (for the dreads), you'll at least do some damage before being shot at, and force the opponent to make some tough decisions at which units to shoot at.

 

I usually use my SR's as fire support units and counter flyers. Additionally, they can pick up some scoring troops and drop them off at an objective late game.

 

Finally, keep in mind how many points you'll be taking away from your SW with the list you want to build. 10 DC on foot, 1 SR, 5 JP Vanguards, and the required HQ will be running you around 900 pts. In return, you get 0 scoring units. I don't mention this to deter you from taking BA's. Rather, choose what units will synergize with you SW forces, and plan a strategy around them.

[Demoulius]

I personaly dont use SG but I can see a use for them as an allied detachment. 2+ save, power weapon and jumppacks are a good combo. Its just that we as blood angels have better (as in, cheaper) alternatives that get the job done equally well :)

If you want something that chops up power armor with terrifying easy though take a unit SG and give them a reroll and/or FC/FnP to them. So pair them with a chaplain/liby for the reroll and give them a priest. This doesent all fit in a SR sadly so if you really want that id go with the DC alternative instead. Those dont need the SP and can just be accompanied with a chaplain of some kind (id take the reclusiarch for reasons already given by the rest of the guys here ) and see them wreck peoples faces! reroll to hit and to wound with WS5 S5 attacks? Yes please id give them bolters though. The bolters shots off set the 1 combat attack that youd get if they had BP+CCW and they cant charge when disembarking from a transport anyway

[Leonaides]

Dem- don't forget that sr is an assault transport... They can charge out of it if it's gone to skimmer mode that turn.

[bystrom]

Dem- don't forget that sr is an assault transport... They can charge out of it if it's gone to skimmer mode that turn.

A raven in skimmer mode is asking to be shot down though. Often, I would want the raven zooming and shooting stuff left and right, while dropping the DC with bolters blasting instead of going skimmer and getting off a charge (albeit very tempting with DC rage). They'll beat a lot of stuff in CC with only bolters anyways.

[Squirrelloid]

 

Dem- don't forget that sr is an assault transport... They can charge out of it if it's gone to skimmer mode that turn.

A raven in skimmer mode is asking to be shot down though. Often, I would want the raven zooming and shooting stuff left and right, while dropping the DC with bolters blasting instead of going skimmer and getting off a charge (albeit very tempting with DC rage). They'll beat a lot of stuff in CC with only bolters anyways.

 

Well, the turn before it was zooming, so it was pretty safe.  You declare zooming or hover at teh start of your turn, so after having zoomed in from reserves to near where you want it, you switch to hover, move 6", disembark DC, and assault all that turn.  Keeping the SR safe will be a matter of having carefully positioned the raven so that the close combat with the DC blocks LoS to it from the worst of enemy shooting.

[bystrom]

 

 

Dem- don't forget that sr is an assault transport... They can charge out of it if it's gone to skimmer mode that turn.

A raven in skimmer mode is asking to be shot down though. Often, I would want the raven zooming and shooting stuff left and right, while dropping the DC with bolters blasting instead of going skimmer and getting off a charge (albeit very tempting with DC rage). They'll beat a lot of stuff in CC with only bolters anyways.

 

Well, the turn before it was zooming, so it was pretty safe.  You declare zooming or hover at teh start of your turn, so after having zoomed in from reserves to near where you want it, you switch to hover, move 6", disembark DC, and assault all that turn.  Keeping the SR safe will be a matter of having carefully positioned the raven so that the close combat with the DC blocks LoS to it from the worst of enemy shooting.

It is the turn that it chooses to go into skimmer mode that I'm concerned about. Since its on a flying base, it should be well elevated above anything the DC can block. Since LoS is done from models to the hull of the raven, it should be practically impossible to block LoS, except if there is a large building inbetween, or if you've placed a land raider/rhino in front of every enemy squad with an AT weapon. Or have I missed something (I'm still not used to the new rules)?

[Squirrelloid]

 

 

 

Dem- don't forget that sr is an assault transport... They can charge out of it if it's gone to skimmer mode that turn.

A raven in skimmer mode is asking to be shot down though. Often, I would want the raven zooming and shooting stuff left and right, while dropping the DC with bolters blasting instead of going skimmer and getting off a charge (albeit very tempting with DC rage). They'll beat a lot of stuff in CC with only bolters anyways.

 

Well, the turn before it was zooming, so it was pretty safe.  You declare zooming or hover at teh start of your turn, so after having zoomed in from reserves to near where you want it, you switch to hover, move 6", disembark DC, and assault all that turn.  Keeping the SR safe will be a matter of having carefully positioned the raven so that the close combat with the DC blocks LoS to it from the worst of enemy shooting.

It is the turn that it chooses to go into skimmer mode that I'm concerned about. Since its on a flying base, it should be well elevated above anything the DC can block. Since LoS is done from models to the hull of the raven, it should be practically impossible to block LoS, except if there is a large building inbetween, or if you've placed a land raider/rhino in front of every enemy squad with an AT weapon. Or have I missed something (I'm still not used to the new rules)?

 

I'm pretty sure if any models in a close combat are giving it at least 'cover' levels of protection, you cannot fire at it, because that would be equivalent to firing through a close combat, which is pretty much equivalent to firing into a close combat.  It at least used to be the case that close combats blocked all fire above them to an arbitrary height too.

 

Actually, I'm not finding any rules regarding firing through a close combat in the current rulebook.  Is that seriously allowed now?  How is that different than firing at models in close combat?  Do you expect them to dodge out of the way because you aren't targetting them?

[Leonaides]

Storm Raven on a stand will almost certainly not get any kind of cover from a CC happening on the ground. But you do have 2 turns of shooting to take out its most likely threats (and also the DC could always charge another threat if you want).

[Demoulius]

I know you can assault when it hovers and only moved 6 inches. Point is though that your SR is most likely to crash and burn if you do. Which leaves the question if you want to risk your SR to do it. Dropping them via deepstrike is a good valid option but leaves you unable to assault for the turn that you do. Hence me saying what I did :)

[Wulfebane]

Ideally anything that might take out the raven will be dead or occupied with other threats that have dropped or moved foreward in the previous 1-3 turns.

 

I usually bring 2 DP Grey Hunter packs, an infiltrating pack of Hunters, 1-2 razerbacks with Hunters, 2 packs of Long Fangs, a pack of TWC, a handful of WGTDA, and 2 rune priests. Adding the DC and a furioso should give my opponent plenty of distractions from the stormraven.