marvmoogy Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Hi all, just a quick fluff question. I've read through my codex and a few other bits I have but I can't find any reference to the DA having 100 suits or Terminator Armour. Can someone point me in the right direction as to where this is stated? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Dex DA, p. 15, "undisclosed number of Deathwing Terminator and Deathwing Knights squads". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Current codex, pg 44, in a paragraph discussing Deathwing "All are elites entirely outfitted in Terminator armour, a luxury few Chapters can match." Combined with codex pg 14 "All members of Deathwing fight in Terminator armour and are never fielded in power armour." And pg 15 says Deathwing includes an undisclosed number of terminator squads, the implication being it may be larger than a standard 1st company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 cheers....but 'undisclosed' doesn't confirm the thinking that we have a full company of terminators. I want to get a couple of Company Veteran squads together and kit them out like Sternguard / Vanguard (ok, I know I can't have Jump Packs but hey) and was thinking of doing them Deathwing stylee but wanted to get the proper fluff back up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Traditionally the first company consisted of 100 space marines, all equipped with termy armour. For instance you need to check out the organisation chart in the 4th edition codex (p15) to see that the Deathwing used to have 20 squads of what used to be five termies each. Or even older - the Angels of Death codex - again stating 20 squads of five. In the current codex there is now no disclosed figure given to the numbers in the DW - but we know that they all wear termy armour (p14 and 15) nevertheless. We can assume it won't be less than 100 I think. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 cross - post! I'm not against the idea at all - in fact I'd love (be able to afford)) to build 100 Termies plus the HQ etc....but there we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 cheers....but 'undisclosed' doesn't confirm the thinking that we have a full company of terminators. I want to get a couple of Company Veteran squads together and kit them out like Sternguard / Vanguard (ok, I know I can't have Jump Packs but hey) and was thinking of doing them Deathwing stylee but wanted to get the proper fluff back up Historical fluff stands (mostly). If the Deathwing didn't have at least 100 suits of TDA, than there wouldn't be rumours of "undisclosed amount of suits" because any number under a hundred is acceptable by whatever powers that be is casting their Imperial eye towards the Dark Angels. Maybe your Deathwing Veterans are just a step away from full Deathwingdom. Or, perhaps they are under a penance for allowing a "fallen" from easily duping them and escaping. Or some other equally shameful thing in need of atoning for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathwing70 Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Company Veterans don't necessarily have to be part of the Deathwing. Being part of the Deathwing means the Marine either discovered something or more likely was chosen to join their ranks as it includes finding out more about the secrets of the chapter/legion. If by 'doing them Deathwing style' you mean painting them (bone)white... Well besides saying they're Angels of Absolution I can't really think of a valid reason at the moment as to why they would repaint their armor differently from the rest of the Company, but in the end as with all matters about painting and modelling... they are your models, you can do and paint them however you like. Actually I did think of a reason... assuming they are from the Deathwing company... it could be a campaign where the extra mobility is needed / some planetary circumstances that make terminator armor less usefull / etc. We are the tactical geniuses after all, we do whatever needs to be done to get the job done, I would assume this includes switching style of combat if required. I never understood why they would counter this by saying 'DW only wears Terminator armor' and 'RW never gets off their bike/land speeders'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 earlier background states 100 Terminators, one assumes that this would not change now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Brother-Sergeant Bohemond, on 18 May 2013 - 18:29, said: earlier background states 100 Terminators, one assumes that this would not change now Earlier fluff (in the last codex) says that the Dark Angels had an entire CHAPTER (the 14th) that was entirely equipped with Terminator armor and was too late to drop on Caliban. Edit: Page 15 in the previous codex: Deathwing consists of 20 squads of Terminator Squads (Back when they were squads of 5) Page 16 in the previous codex. Deathwing is only ever fielded in Terminator armor. The Assault "company" was divided into 100 suit complements and passed out to the successor chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Another possible justification: In Angels of Darkness, after their induction by Boreas, the members of his squad repainted their power armor to the bone white, likely with the intent that they all take up Terminator armor upon return to the Rock and confirmation of the "promotion" by the powers that be. Perhaps this unit (and I'd keep them somewhat small, less than a 10 man squad) of Company Vets was already being led by a Deathwing Sergeant for a mission and they all stumbled upon the truth and are unable to get back to the Rock for armor assignment, so the DW Sgt has them repaint their armor for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Yes that's a characterfulful short term solution. Longer term they'd be trained in TDA asap. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 thanks for the suggestions guys. This is all falling nicely into place. As some of you know, I'm in the process of building a Company with substantial armour / Deathwing / Ravenwing support. So, here's the fluff behind my force. Please bear in mind that I haven't as yet read everything to do with the Dark Angels, just some of it so apologies if there are inaccuracies / contradictions: The Dark Angels receive word from one of their recruiting worlds that a senior member of the fallen (Previous Company Master Jerodiah) is in the planetary system. Previous Ravenwing Scouting missions suspect that Jerodiah never travels alone and is always accompanied by his honour guard. Included in the honour guard is the Standard Bearer Kretolas, who not only had the audacity to renounce the Emperor and the Lion, but desecrated the revered standard he carries as a rallying call for the ruinous powers. Supreme Grand Master Azrael along with his senior commanders, the full 5th company along with Deathwing and Ravenwing support head in-system in order to capture these merciless fallen and make them repent. Jerodiah has proven many times that he is a skilled tactician and has evaded the Dark Angels grasp on over 40 occasions. As such, Azrael orders 20 honoured Deathwing brothers to don power armour and to split into 2 specialist, maneuverable forces. One is tasked with providing Azrael with an Elite personal bodyguard while the other are to provide a rapid reaction force to be deployed as soon as Jerodiah attempts to escape. These Deathwing warriors repaint their armour in the bone of their company and provided with the best weapons the Rock's armoury have to offer. They board a battle barge from The Rock with the following battleforce: Supreme Grand Master Azrael with 20 Company Veterans (10 specializing in close combat and 10 in ranged warfare) Ezekiel Asmodai Belial Sammael 5th Company: Grand Master Librarian Chaplain Command Squad 6x Tactical Squads 2x Assault Squads 2x Devastator Squads Support: Razorback 2x Rhinos Predator Annihilator Predator Destructor Whirlwind Vindicator 2x Dreadnoughts 10x Scouts Deathwing: Belial Librarian Chaplain Command Squad Deathwing Knights 4x Deathwing Terminator Squads 2x Venerable Dreadnoughts 2x Land Raiders (Crusader and normal) Ravenwing Sammael Librarian Chaplain Black Knights 2x RAS 2x Dark Talon 2x Nephilim What do you think guys...does this sound like a legitimate fluff background? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Another possible justification: In Angels of Darkness, after their induction by Boreas, the members of his squad repainted their power armor to the bone white, likely with the intent that they all take up Terminator armor upon return to the Rock and confirmation of the "promotion" by the powers that be. Perhaps this unit (and I'd keep them somewhat small, less than a 10 man squad) of Company Vets was already being led by a Deathwing Sergeant for a mission and they all stumbled upon the truth and are unable to get back to the Rock for armor assignment, so the DW Sgt has them repaint their armor for the time being. I always considered that to be an odd choice at best, a gross error of judgement by the writter at worst. Even if there were battlefield promotions (who was Boreas to promote 5-6 marines to the deathwing on the spot any way?) I would imagine that they would keep their green paint. After all except the deathwing even those who are serving still at their own respective companies they all wear green armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus de Mortalis Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Jerodiah has proven many times that he is a skilled tactician and has evaded the Dark Angels grasp on over 40 occasions. As such, Azrael orders 20 honoured Deathwing brothers to don power armour and to split into 2 specialist, maneuverable forces. One is tasked with providing Azrael with an Elite personal bodyguard while the other are to provide a rapid reaction force to be deployed as soon as Jerodiah attempts to escape. These Deathwing warriors repaint their armour in the bone of their company and provided with the best weapons the Rock's armoury have to offer.Why would Azrael make the Deathwing wear power armor in order to do a job that would be better done by the Ravenwing? It isn't like the Deathwing are superior to the Ravenwing; both are the elite companies of the Chapter and each is tasked with fighting a different form of warfare. The only way I could really think of it making sense having powered armored marines wearing white armor would be if a detachment including Deathwing ran into some serious problems and the terminator armor was lost or destroyed but the brothers had to fight anyway. If you really really want to paint some Dark Angels bleached bone while keeping it fluffy, include a squad in your army painted as Angels of Absolution. The fluff states that the Unforgiven work together closely all the time, so you would get your marines the color you want while also satisfying even the most tenacious fluff-aholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Well, given the amount of punishment that an individual suit can take, I'd consider it unlikely for the wearer to survive when the suit doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Well...Given the briliant idea that some of the model designers had, to put the cabling on the feet and outside of the suit, you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Why would Azrael make the Deathwing wear power armor in order to do a job that would be better done by the Ravenwing? It isn't like the Deathwing are superior to the Ravenwing; both are the elite companies of the Chapter and each is tasked with fighting a different form of warfare. I don't like it as a solution, but I could see situations where the Inner Circle want Deathwing members rather than Ravenwing to undertake a mission. The Deathwing know about the secret of the Fallen, even the highest members of the Ravenwing (excluding their Deathwing-officers) don't know that. Equally, Ravenwing aren't specialists as PA-infantry except in the sense all marines are. Their go is fighting mounted. So I could see a very rare case where they'd want DW in PA. Except the book says that never happens, with the Dark Angels at least. If you really really want to paint some Dark Angels bleached bone while keeping it fluffy, include a squad in your army painted as Angels of Absolution. The fluff states that the Unforgiven work together closely all the time, so you would get your marines the color you want while also satisfying even the most tenacious fluff-aholic. Winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 DW squads are generally equipped to deal with pretty much anything. That, along with highly accurate teleport attacks means that as long as the target is located, they can drop on their doorsteps, TDA-clad and guns blazing. I reckon that we got company veterans led by an Interrogator-Chaplain for that. After all, there's evidence that even DW-inducted marines are sometimes posted back in their old company as watchdogs. Wouldn't be too far-fetched to reason that at least some of the company veterans know about the Fallen, and get picked for more covert missions involving them. Ergo, no reason for our 1st company to not use TDA. And no reason for ash-coloured PA marines either, since company veterans won't stand out much from the rest of their company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 oh well, it was worth a try.... unless I pull out the joker card and say that to me, my example fits the 'rule of cool' and I can stand with my thumb to my nose, wiggling my fingers saying 'ner, ner, ner, ner, ner, nerrrrr'! all joking aside, thanks for the insight guys - I love the discourse we get here on the B&C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yep, Rule of Cool always trumps everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Onisuzume, on 20 May 2013 - 13:46, said: DW squads are generally equipped to deal with pretty much anything. That, along with highly accurate teleport attacks means that as long as the target is located, they can drop on their doorsteps, TDA-clad and guns blazing. I reckon that we got company veterans led by an Interrogator-Chaplain for that. After all, there's evidence that even DW-inducted marines are sometimes posted back in their old company as watchdogs. Wouldn't be too far-fetched to reason that at least some of the company veterans know about the Fallen, and get picked for more covert missions involving them. Ergo, no reason for our 1st company to not use TDA. And no reason for ash-coloured PA marines either, since company veterans won't stand out much from the rest of their company. Actually there is: Even if we take the fact that there is a rotation of sorts as you put it for them been 'watchdogs' (which I fully back btw), I can hardly see said individuals forming squads of powerarmored marines. The company Vets are not deathwing this is clear. They are veterans of many battles but have nothing to do with the deathwing...yet. Even if we accept that each company has enough deathwing watchdogs to fully form them into squads it invalidates their purpose two fold: First of all who are you gonna watch if your entire squad is composed of people who want to rat out the others? In essence you have a squad of spies away from their target. Moreover, if they paint their armor bonewhite its a big sign: 'Deathwing here! We iz da best and we iz gonna spy on youz when this is ova dont sweat it bros! ' What I mean is, if they are undercover why collect them all in one place and give out their true purpose (or rather station)? It doesn't make any sense. I don't think the apothecary in angels of darkness to be wearing bobwhite armor or advertising his station. In my mind, those who are not serving the deathwing as full time terminators are individuals who serve specific political or other crucial purposes withing the inner circle or chapter needs. Forming them into power armored squads and poolling them together is not a good choice. The fact that the deathwing are used as the innercircles military arm is two fold: Heavy firepower and experience to crack every obstacle and the best armor to ensure that this trusted individuals survive to perform their jobs no matter the situation. Pooling them together and deploying them in power armor is a risky proposition. It is clear we are not taxed in resources such as other inferior chapters. Now model wise, paint them pink even and name them lovewing. They are yours. Fluffwise though I (not that it matters) aint convinced. My 2cs. EDIT: Bonus points if you convert lovefirsts and create rules for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Now model wise, paint them pink even and name them lovewing. They are yours. Fluffwise though I (not that it matters) aint convinced. My 2cs. EDIT: Bonus points if you convert lovefirsts and create rules for them. I believe those are from the "Purtyful" marines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Now model wise, paint them pink even and name them lovewing. They are yours. Fluffwise though I (not that it matters) aint convinced. My 2cs. EDIT: Bonus points if you convert lovefirsts and create rules for them. I believe those are from the "Purtyful" marines... Yeah, dont forget the clam and glitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbenner Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Now model wise, paint them pink even and name them lovewing. They are yours. Fluffwise though I (not that it matters) aint convinced. My 2cs. EDIT: Bonus points if you convert lovefirsts and create rules for them. I believe those are from the "Purtyful" marines... Yeah, dont forget the clam and glitter The Purtymarines Chapter and Hive Fleet Fabulous need to have a get together for a tea-party. Would be quite stellar. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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