Powerfists

[Montuhotep]

Simple question really, mostly pertaining to Tactical Squad sergeants:

 

 Does anyone still use them anymore? Ever since 6th came out with it's different power weapon profiles, fists seem to have done a disappearing job.

[McFisty]

The challenge rules in 6th. ed. is the real problem for powerfists now. If your opponent can challenge Fisty and hit at initiative, especially with an AP 3 weapon, forget it, Serg. is taking a dirt nap before he had a chance to strike. The other option is to decline challenges and then Serg. will sit out and drink coffee. Either way, Fisty doesn't see much action any more because of the changes made to CC in 6th. ed. As a result, I don't bother to upgrade my sergeants any more. They are just another wound in the pool to protect your special and heavy weapons.

 

McFisty

[Febelcrofas]

Same here, it makes me sad coax all my sergeants had fists in 5th but now they stay on the shelf :(

If there was a squad I was running an ic with I might consider it but I never take ic's in a tac squad anyway.

[Zombie P]

Due to challenge mechanics, you can leave your sgt out of challenge range while still being able to attack in the actual combat phase. Buuuut, as Axes come in a 10 points cheaper and still bring the AP2, they are still out of favor. The only reason now to take a fist is to ID things you are hitting (or to wound things easily up to T7). I didn't mention vehicle killing because you can still grab melta bombs (becoming more effective against vehicles than a fist ever was) and an axe and still be under budget. 

 

So they are still dead, but not for the challenge reason.

 

The only fists I have in my army are the ones on my terminators, the one combined with a LC on my Captain, and the one on my old metal sternguard sergeant. And the sternguard sergeant is purely for the rule of cool.

 

ZP

[DarkGuard]

Fists and I1 CC weapons just aren't worth the risk on Sergeants because of the Challenge mechanics, you won't always be able to dodge them.

 

Coupled to the fact that combi-weapons are still more points efficient than power weapons, and it's easy to see why most don't take power weapons on their Sergeants anymore.

[War Angel]

I use em, but I don't often win. I play more to model and have a good time. I like to upgrade my sgts because they are battle hardend vets who deserve more than just a combat knife.

 

That said, I did manage to kill a captain who had an axe with one. Had he been weilding a powersword, my sgt would have done nothing though. So I still believe that it's all how you play em. Just harder to do so.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Two equally important reasons:

 

If you want to equip your sergeant with a close combat weapon, the axe is cheaper, the same vs T4 single wound models, and gives you an extra attack.

 

The challenge rules can mean that your sergeant is much more likely to die quickly and be a waste of any points spent on upgrading him. There is incentive to not upgrade him at all for close-combat and just accept the fact that he will die. This is annoying when you are forced to pay extra points for the sergeant and in previous editions he WAS the squad, but so be it. If you want to do any upgrades, buy him a combi-weapon and nothing else.

[infornography]

A power sword or mace can give you the edge in most melees, but rarely worth it.

[Hyaenidae]

I've had limited success putting a PF on a Scout Sergeant in a LSS, mostly for light tank hunting.

 

Other than that, no. Unless their in TDA, I just don't use PF's anymore.

[corlinjewell]

What about going for instant deaths?  I'm building up an assault squad (mostly just because I bought the battleforce and have it rather than planning on using it).  I figured if I give the Sgt. a storm shield and a fist, I might have him survive long enough in a challenge to lay down the smack (I have a jump captain with relic blade to run with them too).  Is this worth the extra points, or should I still go with the axe and meltabombs?

[SW1]

One of they joys with playing Space Wolves is that you can run a PF in a Grey Hunter or Blood Claws pack without it going bye, bye in a challenge as the models with them are not sergeants.  This gives the Wolves a nice extra bit of flexibility in unit builds.

 

None SW armies I don't see them making many showings other than the rule of cool.

 

Though saying that I've always wanted to build a SW character with 2 power fist just as it looks cool.  Maybe I should do that next?  :D

[DarkGuard]

What about going for instant deaths?  I'm building up an assault squad (mostly just because I bought the battleforce and have it rather than planning on using it).  I figured if I give the Sgt. a storm shield and a fist, I might have him survive long enough in a challenge to lay down the smack (I have a jump captain with relic blade to run with them too).  Is this worth the extra points, or should I still go with the axe and meltabombs?

 

What will you instant kill? Most things you want to instant kill are better than you in combat and often faster while having invulnerable saves. Most things you want to instant kill are best killed at range.

[Disruptor_fe404]

What will you instant kill? Most things you want to instant kill are better than you in combat and often faster while having invulnerable saves. Most things you want to instant kill are best killed at range.

 

Pretty much why I don't run powerfists on Sergeants in 6th.

 

Terminators with fists though... Delicious.

[Zombie P]

Almost completely off topic, 5 tactical terms charged a talos. 2 invuns later and I smashed it into the floor!

 

Fists are cool, but have no place in a competitive scene.

 

ZP

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They have no place on sergeants. They are useful on Tac Termies and mixed on characters though -- the fist/claw combo seems fairly popular on Chaos Lords, for instance.

[Ishagu]

I keep my sgt cheap and cheerful. If he dies its no big loss. You could always add an independant character to your squad and have him take the challanges...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I keep my sgt cheap and cheerful. If he dies its no big loss. You could always add an independant character to your squad and have him take the challanges...

 

Or, let the cheap-and-cheerful sergeant take the challenge and die while your IC rips up the enemy squad.

[UltraTacSgt]

I have to say, I ran into an enemy who used powerfists on his sergeants and they were pretty nasty. I run my sergeants barebones with a bolter, so when he was able to get into combat with my Tac Marines or my rhinos, he krumped them.

 

I'm not saying it's ideal, or that it's a great use of points, but generally I don't think that most Marine players are putting power weapons on their sarges, so you have a pretty good chance to catch people off guard with it. Plus you never really know what will happen once dice start flying.

 

Friendly/Casual games, sure give it a shot. Competitive, probably a bad idea.

[knife&fork]

Having fists can put your opponent in 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situations. Not everyone runs killy characters, at least not ones ignoring armor at initiative. For any character like that accepting or declining a challenge becomes a very tough choice. 

 

The fist sergeant I had in my VV squad last game took out a vindicare, a MotF and Coteaz. Worth the 10 pt upgrade from a normal PW if you ask me.

 

Fists have always been too expensive to take en masse, but I don't think 6th has made fists obsolete, nor can they be replaced by axes. Because when you need that fist the axe or melta bomb won't do. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Having fists can put your opponent in 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situations. Not everyone runs killy characters, at least not ones ignoring armor at initiative. For any character like that accepting or declining a challenge becomes a very tough choice. 

 

The fist sergeant I had in my VV squad last game took out a vindicare, a MotF and Coteaz. Worth the 10 pt upgrade from a normal PW if you ask me.

 

Fists have always been too expensive to take en masse, buI don't think 6th has made fists obsolete, nor can they be replaced by axes. Because when you need that fist the axe or melta bomb won't do. 

 

I still don't think it's worth it.  If your Vanguard charge my Tac Squad, and your SGT with fist challenges me, I'll accept with my SGT whose only upgrade is a combi-weapon he's already fired his load on with.  I get to go before you, so maybe I kill your dude before he strikes.  Is it likely?  No, but it can happen.  And if I don't kill him, and he kills me, I'm ok with it.  Because your three power fists just killed one guy, instead of the two or three he could have killed.  This allows my joes and your joes to hack at each other, meaning I will probably get a better combat res score than I otherwise would have.  I'll lose the combat and Combat Tactics my way the Hell out of Dodge, but that's not the point of the discussion. 

 

Now imagine that you're fighting against a Raptor Champion with a power sword, or someone with a lightning claw, or a squad of Hammernators.  Now YOU are the one in the "damned if you do or don't" seat.  Do you challenge?  His AP3 weapon might kill you before you get to strike; in the case of the Hammernators, you strike simo, but he's got a good save and you've got squat.  But if you don't fight, you're not getting anything out of that big 25 point investment.  Things get even muddier when you consider that one of the prime targets of a power fist these days -- one of the few reasons to take them at all, I'd say -- is the presence of Monstrous Creatures, who are all AP2 at-Initiative.  That S8 is needed to really put a hurting on the big guys, but do honestly think that you can survive more than a round or two fighting against one?  A Riptide maybe, but a Daemon Prince?  A Trygon or Hive Tyrant?

 

The only way that fists are worth having is if you have multiples in a unit, thus my earlier comment about Tactical Terminators.  Maybe if you've got an IC and a SGT both with fists, so that way no matter how things work out challenge-wise, you've still got some clobberin' going on.

[knife&fork]

 

Having fists can put your opponent in 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situations. Not everyone runs killy characters, at least not ones ignoring armor at initiative. For any character like that accepting or declining a challenge becomes a very tough choice. 

 

The fist sergeant I had in my VV squad last game took out a vindicare, a MotF and Coteaz. Worth the 10 pt upgrade from a normal PW if you ask me.

 

Fists have always been too expensive to take en masse, buI don't think 6th has made fists obsolete, nor can they be replaced by axes. Because when you need that fist the axe or melta bomb won't do. 

 

I still don't think it's worth it.  If your Vanguard charge my Tac Squad, and your SGT with fist challenges me, I'll accept with my SGT whose only upgrade is a combi-weapon he's already fired his load on with.  I get to go before you, so maybe I kill your dude before he strikes.  Is it likely?  No, but it can happen.  And if I don't kill him, and he kills me, I'm ok with it.  Because your three power fists just killed one guy, instead of the two or three he could have killed.  This allows my joes and your joes to hack at each other, meaning I will probably get a better combat res score than I otherwise would have.  I'll lose the combat and Combat Tactics my way the Hell out of Dodge, but that's not the point of the discussion. 

 

Now imagine that you're fighting against a Raptor Champion with a power sword, or someone with a lightning claw, or a squad of Hammernators.  Now YOU are the one in the "damned if you do or don't" seat.  Do you challenge?  His AP3 weapon might kill you before you get to strike; in the case of the Hammernators, you strike simo, but he's got a good save and you've got squat.  But if you don't fight, you're not getting anything out of that big 25 point investment.  Things get even muddier when you consider that one of the prime targets of a power fist these days -- one of the few reasons to take them at all, I'd say -- is the presence of Monstrous Creatures, who are all AP2 at-Initiative.  That S8 is needed to really put a hurting on the big guys, but do honestly think that you can survive more than a round or two fighting against one?  A Riptide maybe, but a Daemon Prince?  A Trygon or Hive Tyrant?

 

The only way that fists are worth having is if you have multiples in a unit, thus my earlier comment about Tactical Terminators.  Maybe if you've got an IC and a SGT both with fists, so that way no matter how things work out challenge-wise, you've still got some clobberin' going on.

 

Making sure that the fist is protected and engaging the right things is up to you, the controlling player. Use positioning and pile in order to make sure that you get the most of him if there's something dangerous in the unit.

 

We don't willingly go after killy models with our 1W model, they are best employed against non killy characters and vehicles. That our sergeant will get gibbed by a dreadknight or swarmlord is completely irrelevant. Taking them on is not his job.

[Deus de Mortalis]

knife&fork, on 31 May 2013 - 02:59, said:

Having fists can put your opponent in 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situations. Not everyone runs killy characters, at least not ones ignoring armor at initiative. For any character like that accepting or declining a challenge becomes a very tough choice.

What sort of lame character would lose a fight to a PF sergeant? Even a chaplain with his ap4 crozius arcanum is much more likely to win a combat than the sergeant.

knife&fork, on 31 May 2013 - 02:59, said:

The fist sergeant I had in my VV squad last game took out a vindicare, a MotF and Coteaz. Worth the 10 pt upgrade from a normal PW if you ask me.

That is extremely impressive, especially for a single game, but the odds are stacked really high against that.

knife&fork, on 31 May 2013 - 02:59, said:

Fists have always been too expensive to take en masse, but I don't think 6th has made fists obsolete, nor can they be replaced by axes. Because when you need that fist the axe or melta bomb won't do.

In 3rd edtion, you got the extra attack from a PF and pistol and the sergeant would live until the rest of the squad died, so you had to be a lunatic not to run a PF! But since then, PF on sergeants have gotten nerfed a bit every edition.

[knife&fork]

What sort of lame character would lose a fight to a PF sergeant? Even a chaplain with his ap4 crozius arcanum is much more likely to win a combat than the sergeant.

 

Any character who can be instagibbed by the fist and doesn't ignore 3+ at initiative will have to think twice before accepting a challenge. There are quite a number of these in the game. More now than ever before.

 

In the game I mentioned I lucked out and faced three characters like this. He had to choose between trying his luck against the fist or not fight. Both equally bad, for him. 

 

Something else to keep in mind is that even a naked sergeant is effectively worth an extra 'blip' of combat resolution if you lower the opponents LD by killing him. 

[Deus de Mortalis]

You got really lucky with each of those characters. Even a Vindicare assassin should stand an even chance against a PF sergeant. But also remember that a power axe would have an easier time insta-killing Coteaz since it gets an extra attack and it is S6 vs T3.<br /><br />So really a PF is most useful against a multi-wound T4 model that strikes at I1 and doesn't have an invulnerable save, although the sergeant would still probably have a greater chance of dying than the enemy. Oh, and also only if your opponent accepts the challenge and doesn't have a basic sergeant to throw at you instead.<br /><br />But even then, the odds are not good for the sergeant. Even if he gets the charge he will probably just die. If a PF sergeant charges a basic chaplain, so the PF sergeant has 3 attacks and the chaplain has his base three attacks, the chaplain will still win 70% of the time. If the chaplain charges, there is an 87% chance the sergeant is going to die before he does anything. Against a bare librarian, it is about the same. VS someone striking at I1, the sergeant does well, since he can still land in a blow before dying. But if there is an invulnerable save, the odds go back to being like vs the chaplain or librarian.<br /><br />Versus T3, single wound T4 models, and T5, the power axe is better and 10 points cheaper. These are also the kinds of models that the sergeant might have a shot against in close combat. Also there are very few multi-wound T4 models, T6+ models, or walkers that the power fist sergeant can survive one round with or that the enemy can't protect from the PF sergeant.

[War Angel]

A SM captain charged me with a power axe and didnt challenge, so I challenged to try and save my remaining squadies and ended up killing the power axe....