Supplement Chapter Dexs?

[Morticon]

Quick poll and discussion regarding GWs move back towards supplement Dexs.  (for those of you not aware, GW are releaseing an Iyanden Eldar supplement along with the new Eldar in June).

 

 

Personally, I'm a fan. 

While I love the BA and would never ever wish they were rolled into one marine dex, I think its perfectly justifiable, fluffy and balanced to tie the BA dex to the SM dex by way of a supplement ala 3rd ed. And, depending on release times, I think I'd prefer a supplement.

 

The reason for that is partly because of short term timing - our new dex is recent in terms of 40k, and its unlikely we'll get a full new release for along, long, long time which means we're essentially tied to some previous decisions and directions that have since been avoided.  I think the general design of 40k has gotten much, much smarter in the last year.

 

Its also a pet peeve of mine that between BT, BA, DA and regular SMs, there are different costs for the same things (I exclude our brother Wolves for obvious reasons - theyre completely separate in my view).  

 

I also think that 2 books mean twice the amount of changes.  They can update SM, then a few years later, update BA - essentially and potentially doubling the speed we get changes.

 

What do you guys think?

[JAMOB]

If it's more than two years and we would get our own codex eventually anyway, I would be fine with a supplement. I would like our own codex eventually though.

 

As to the differing point costs, that actually makes sense if you think about it as different chapters have different availability of weapons. They're normally pretty similar anyway, though it can be annoying.

 

I really just want a codex that is extremely different than the smurf one, and soon - if a supplement is all that we get for now, so be it.

[Morticon]

JAMOB - Could you expand on your thinking behind wanting something "extremely different" from the SMs? 

I assume its personal reasons rather than history/fluff -since that would indicate the opposite direction, no?

[Demoulius]

Seeing some of the point costs in the new DA dex I dont care either way, just give me a new dex with better pricing and more customisation for my HQ's

[j-smuv]

Let me start out by saying that we deserve our own codex.  Regardless of whether it’s practical or convenient, we deserve a unique and robust book.  If they can do that in a supplement: create a respectful representation that faithfully reflects the history of one of the most storied Chapters in the imperium. . .  then I’m all on board.   But my fear is that a supplement would bring us one step closer to just being red Ultramarines.  

 

But fears aside, I think it depends on the direction of the new Space Marine codex.  We haven’t even seen it yet.  We can assume it’s going to be better, because the new 6^th edition codices are generally more flavorful and balanced.  But would I want Blood Angels to be a supplement to a Space Marine codex like the one now?  Absolutely not. . .  imagine having to take Dante every time you wanted to apply “chapter tactics” for Blood Angels.  Let me see the new SM dex, then I will tell you if I would want to be part of it.      

 

[Demoulius]

Agreed.

Tbh if they re-implemented a trait system but do it the proper way this time (have advantages tied to disadvantages) then id be all over that :)

Taking a special character to be "blood angely" would be meh but tbh I nowadays hardly notice our red thirst rule either.... Presence of our priests on the other hand....

[Morticon]

For me it would be more about us having access to the same Tac marines, the same predators (+ OC engines), the same Dev sqauds, the same Assault Squads (+scoring) - and being brought in line with whatever incarnation of the Codex Astartes is at the SM release.  It wouldnt be a case of us needing to buy Dante to get XYZ, but rather BA being unique in what they have extra, and their own "chapter tactics"  detailed in the supplement- i mean, seriously - currently our "chapter tactics" are a 1:6 chance of getting fearless and FC O_o  

That is uber lame. 

 

We've always been a "slightly deviant" Chapter-  not like the SWs.  It makes no sense to me why the exact same unit would be so different in cost from dex to dex -the poor BT have struggled with this for a lot longer than we have! 

[Brother Maikel]

If you take our current book and remove every unit that C:SM has you're left with:

 

Special Characters

Sanguinary Guard

Sanguinary Priest

Furioso Dread

Death Company

Death Company Dread

Baal Predator

 

*Technically Honour Guard too, but it is really just a retooled/renamed Command Squad

 

Why do we need an entirely separate book for SCs, 6 unique units, some FoC slot changes, two special rules (DoA, Red Thirst) and a handful of wargear items?  It would be easy to separate this stuff out and put it in a separate book, and the rest of the book could be stories, pictures, heraldry, descriptions of more successor chapters, rather than a bunch of copy-paste from C:SM.  It would give the designers the ability to update all marine codices in one go, rather than having the DA/BT problem, where there are "up to date" Marine Codices that are 3? editions apart.

 

Build the main C:SM around this idea: include one chapter (Ultras probably) in the core Codex along with some generic rules for creating your own.

Create a supplement for every other Codex-Adherent first founding chapter that includes fluff and rules for both the base chapter and any notable successor chapters (Imp Fists/BT).

Wolves and GK should probably stay separate, due to their drastically Codex-divergent organization.

 

For convenience sake, include the C:SM units/wargear in the summary pages at the back of each supplement, along with relevant page numbers.  That way unless you get into a substantial rules dispute you still only need to refer to one book during the game.

[Midnightmare]

I kinda feel the pinch on points when compared to new releases, I really do. With some of our better special rules getting hit with the nerf bat(I won't go into details here, as we all as BA know what they are) it has really highlighted our expensive and average troops. This makes me want to get with the new up to date GW style of codex, however, not at the expense of a stand alone codex. Many of the other armies/races have had to wait a lot longer than us for a 'dex, so I guess we should just get on with it. Don't forget, allies can plug holes in ours if that is your thing (I am thinking of using some IG blobs and using lots more of our shiny stuff which is still pretty good). Maybe if we (and others) had an update, and a codex further down the line then yeah. If not, then I will stick with my 'dex

Everybody has their chance of being flavour of the month.

[Demoulius]

Special Characters

Sanguinary Guard

Sanguinary Priest

Furioso Dread

Death Company

Death Company Dread

Baal Predator

acatually id call that a pretty long list of unique units or units with special traits actually...

Our command squads can fly and have different weapon options. We have different dreadnoughts. We have a special variant of the Baal. We can buy seperate apothecaries. And while red thirst is pretty close to "blood angel combat tactics" I think wed have alot of trouble finding a loyalist unit that comes close to the death company... Only thing that I can think of that comes close is the wulfen tbh...

On a sidenote: supplement books imho tend to have less fluff in them then full fledged codexi. The old BA codex supplement (I think it was in 3rd?) did have some nice fluffy parts but books dont get written like that anymore. Books like the armaggedon campaign book and such are things that id sooner see happen and tbh id prefer having my own book

[Xenith]

If you take our current book and remove every unit that C:SM has you're left with:

 

Special Characters

Sanguinary Guard

Sanguinary Priest

Furioso Dread

Death Company

Death Company Dread

Baal Predator

 

Characters remain separate in a suppliment

San guard are honour guard that get the option to take jump packs

apothecaries become 1-3 elites choice in C:SM

Furioso/blood talons/death co upgrade is an upgrade to an ironclad dread

death co - special suppliment

Baal pred is BA upgrade to a normal pred.

SM command squads have option for jump packs.

 

This is all stuff that can be encompassed with a suppliment.

 

A liked having the big dex, but I didnt really see the point after happily running my BA army from the 3rd ed mini dex. If GW sold C:SM, and a £10 add on for BA, with ~30pages of fluff and rules, I'd buy.

 

Means I dont have to buy several full codexes each edition.

[Alyssis]

I bought my first 40k models this november. I bought the Blood Angels, without reading anything about them, simply because of their unique models.. When i say unique models, i mean the looks of them.. I use the Sanguinary guard models as DC, Assault marines, Tac marines, Priests, and everything i can possible do, just painting them different..

After reading a bit of their story, The Sanguinor, and all the fluff behind BA, i really fell in love with them..

But what i enjoy the most, is playing.. And if they somehow manage to release codexes more often, that puts all the space marine chapters in an more or less equal balance, i couldnt possibly say no to that.. If we, and the other SM chapters keeps our uniqueness, and our models would cost the same with every release they had, it would make things alot easier.. Having to add DA Devestators with lascannons as allies, simply to save 40 points is just silly.. We pay more for the exact same thing, except for our devestators having 1/6 chance of getting the Red Thirst.. That shouldnt cost 40 points more..

So, if we where to get a supplement codex when the SM get theirs later this year, and as long as they dont destroy us by having to use Dante as an hq for it to be a legal BA army, then im game! Im all for game balance, and we would still be unique!

[Demoulius]

Uh.... so your proposing we give away the vast majority of units that make the BA unique? Tbh if you do that you might as well pull the plug out of blood angels completly and only have 1 marine codex. Then we all can be happy red ultramarines....

[Alyssis]

No, i clearly stated that as long as we, and the other chapters keep our uniqueness, that ofcourse beeing our unique models.. I dont want to be some red wannabe ultramarines..

[Xenith]

Uh.... so your proposing we give away the vast majority of units that make the BA unique? Tbh if you do that you might as well pull the plug out of blood angels completly and only have 1 marine codex. Then we all can be happy red ultramarines....

 

You mean the C:SM units that the BA took and tweaked a little?

[Squirrelloid]

For those of you who don't remember the Blood Angels 3rd edition codex...

 

-It listed all the unique blood angels units that existed at the time.  There would be no limits on unique blood angels units.  (It created the furioso dreadnought and the Baal predator even, which hadn't existed until that release).

-It could and did change which FoC slots units occupied.  (In particular, moving Dreadnoughts to heavy support, iirc).

-It did, however, refer back to C:SM for units that were the same.  This was particularly handy when C:SM got an update early in 4th edition, as that was an update for C:BA too.  (C:BA didn't even get an actual codex in 4th, we were still using the 3rd codex until our own 5th codex came out).

 

The 3rd edition codex, warts and all, was my favorite codex we've had.  Sure, the DC mechanics were kind of funky, but it made them play a lot differently from regular marines *even with* mostly the same units.  (That it better represented the fluff of the DC was just a bonus).

[Brother Maikel]

Special Characters

Sanguinary Guard

Sanguinary Priest

Furioso Dread

Death Company

Death Company Dread

Baal Predator

acatually id call that a pretty long list of unique units or units with special traits actually...

Our command squads can fly and have different weapon options. We have different dreadnoughts. We have a special variant of the Baal. We can buy seperate apothecaries. And while red thirst is pretty close to "blood angel combat tactics" I think wed have alot of trouble finding a loyalist unit that comes close to the death company... Only thing that I can think of that comes close is the wulfen tbh...

On a sidenote: supplement books imho tend to have less fluff in them then full fledged codexi. The old BA codex supplement (I think it was in 3rd?) did have some nice fluffy parts but books dont get written like that anymore. Books like the armaggedon campaign book and such are things that id sooner see happen and tbh id prefer having my own book

Uh.... so your proposing we give away the vast majority of units that make the BA unique? Tbh if you do that you might as well pull the plug out of blood angels completly and only have 1 marine codex. Then we all can be happy red ultramarines....

I'm not saying we should get rid of those things, and I'm pretty sure Morticon and Xenith aren't either. I'm just wondering why we should have duplicate entries of everything that is already in C:SM.

What does having a separate "full" book get us? There isn't anything stopping them from putting the same amount of fluff (or more!) in a supplement as we have in our current book. Unique units like the DC, DC dread, and Sang Guard can be in the supplement as BA-only. We can add wargear options, BA-specific rules, and/or FoC slot changes with a couple of tables or a bit of text. We won't lose anything, other chapters won't "steal" any of our units (that they shouldn't already have anyway... its not like other chapters don't have apothecaries). We'll just get timelier updates (along with all of the other marine chapters) at the cost of having to buy/carry around one extra book. I think it would be worth the trade.

[Demoulius]

@Alyssis:  comment was aimed at Xenith mate.

 

@Xenith:
no.
I mean the ones that are UNIQUE to blood angels. Infact, many units out of the codex space marines they stole from the blood angels instead, not the other way around. Like pure close combat dreadnoughts (read:furioso) before codex marines suddenly got ironclads. Like assault marine veterans (veteran assault squad) before codex space marines got vanguard veterans. The only thing we dident lose tbh were Baal predators and Death Company and they were fluffwise (like the other 2 things we lost btw) blood angel exlusive. Baal predators because we discovered (or invented) the STC (or that was a later addition, not sure) and the death company because of the flaw. We had SHP's because the blood angels legacy is highly tied to the blood of sanguinius. While all chapter are accompanied by apothecaries the blood angels revered theirs and the loss of one is death blow to the chapter.

 

So no. I dont see why all marine chapters should suddenly have their apothecaries run around between their troops. They are part of the command squad (same as with
ours) but we have additional apothecaries because of the well beeing and spiritual tie that their presence provides every blood angel. In other chapters the apothecaries only tend the wounded and collect progenoid glands on the field.

 

Mind, alot of things blood angels share with codex marine as well (tactical,devastators assault marines) but thats tied to the basis of a marine chapter. Nothing unique about it (unless you want to tie crusader squads and grey hutner squads into the mix...)

 

@squirrelloid:
I agree. Back then the red thirst had alot more effect on gameplay and made alot more sense fluffwise then it does now. In fact, my devastators always managed to surge forward (as did my tacticals who were standing ontop of an objective :D) whilst my assault marines kept their cool!

 

@brother Maikel: What would a full book give us? Well more then 1 or 2 pages of fluff (if that) for starters... Crimson fists, imperial fists, iron hands to name just a few examples got the short end of the stick with the last codex space marines...

 

I can see the point where multiple codex have seperate costs for the same unit is somewhat odd and unfair. Whats preventing GW from changing the costs through the FAQ? We dont need an entire NEW book for that, seriously... I think its the same as when we had 3 seperate rulings for stormshields and GW changed them through the FAQ.

[Brother Maikel]

@brother Maikel: What would a full book give us? Well more then 1 or 2 pages of fluff (if that) for starters... Crimson fists, imperial fists, iron hands to name just a few examples got the short end of the stick with the last codex space marines...

 

I can see the point where multiple codex have seperate costs for the same unit is somewhat odd and unfair. Whats preventing GW from changing the costs through the FAQ? We dont need an entire NEW book for that, seriously... I think its the same as when we had 3 seperate rulings for stormshields and GW changed them through the FAQ.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting that they do to us what they did to the other marine chapters with the 5e C:SM.  At bare minimum, I think they should reprint our current book but take out any rules entries for

 

Captain

Librarian

Reclusiarch

Honour Guard

Techmarine

Tactical Terminators

Assault Terminators

Sternguard Vets

Chaplain

Tactical Squads

Scout Squads

Assault Squads

Vanguard Vets

Land Speeders

Bike Squads

Attack Bike Squads

Scout Bike Squads

Devastator Squads

Stormraven Gunships

Dreadnaught

Predator

Vindicator

Whirlwind

 

and replace them with "See Codex: Space Marine".  Add in a table of BA-specific wargear, a BA psychic table, give all of the Rhino-chassis vehicles the option to take "Overcharged Engines" for X pts, replace Chapter Tactics with Red Thirst + Descent of Angels, and FoC shift ASM and Land Raiders.  Voila, we have rules for BA that get updated every time C:SM does, and only need to be updated when the BA-specific stuff goes out of date.

 

Heck, taking out that much rules text would leave plenty of room in the book for new/additional fluff.  Maybe see the Angels Sanguine, Lamenters, or Flesh Tearers get some love?  Replace Captain Blando with another successor Chapter Master?  Add the "Chapter Master" entry to our HQ section for custom BA successors?

[Morticon]

Dont forget the .pdf BA dex ;) 

[Demoulius]

Brother Maikel. I could live with that, no problem. Thing is, GW tries to attract new (young) players as well as keep the older players. If they said blood angels uses 99% of codex space marine but adds X to unit Y. A to unit B. etc etc I could see how it could be confusing fast for new (and old) players tbh...

Having all the rules in 1 place is a godsend. For all the nostalgic memories that I have from 3rd edition and indeed the PDF codex beeing references to 1 or 2 other sources (some sources in codex marines in turn revert to the BRB) isent as usefull as it sounds... Specialy when I was faced against someone who dident know blood angels. I was always carrying 2 codex with me to play 1 army. Not to mention FAQ's for both armies and god forbid if one countermanded the other...

It would be totally awesome if GW had some sort of DIGITAL medium that they could use for their codexi. That they could then UPDATE so we wouldnt have to hold our erratas and FAQ's next to them at least then it would be worth the same price as a normal paper codex (imho)

[SamaNagol]

With the way our Troops are so poor atm, I can see most of us using Codex: Space Marines come September

[Captain Semper]

I think the "Big 4" will always get their own Codices... It's a GW fetish. Do they actually need it? Of course not. In terms of time economy and equal treatment of all marine and non-marine factions, the supplement Codices would work wonders to flesh out the established Chapters, and an opportunity to cover other Chapters too (like Salamanders or IFs).

[Morticon]

With the way our Troops are so poor atm, I can see most of us using Codex: Space Marines come September

Thats part of my concern, hey :( 

BA for flavour units, and SM for core units. My BA are already migrating that way with the DA help.

 

I think the "Big 4" will always get their own Codices... It's a GW fetish. 

 

BT, Sallies, BA and DA all had supplements - so, while it is "their own codex" its not a stand-alone. 

 

Brother Maikel. I could live with that, no problem. Thing is, GW tries to attract new (young) players as well as keep the older players. If they said blood angels uses 99% of codex space marine but adds X to unit Y. A to unit B. etc etc I could see how it could be confusing fast for new (and old) players tbh...

Not sure I agree with that Dem.  This is exactly what happens now.  BA are SMs with X added to Y, A to B.  There's no difference in that - at least not one that will actively confuse people

[BAHERSH]

BA have a different history. Their geneseed is flawed in a way that SM's do not know. Their innate state of being is in the air - they wish to fly as their primarch once did. They are not typical marines, and even if it takes an additional couple of extra years, I would much prefer a separate codex. Supplementing the SM codex would ruin the fluff and fun for my BA's. Any chapter that is as unique as the BA's (i.e.: SW, GK) deserve a separate codex. If they're underpowered for a while, so be it. Codexes come and go, and eventually we will be on top again.

 

I understand the appeal of having everything in one accessible codex, but I don't play SM's. I play BA's. Imo, they are separate armies.