Supplement Chapter Dexs?

[Morticon]

Curious to know if people have changed their views at all regarding the latest SM stuff coming out. 

 

I was asking because I was thinking about how easy it would be to update the BA with a supplementary dex - and how GW would esentially tie us into buying two dexs.  Basically if would be like back in 3rd ed, when we had the main SM dex, and the add on dex. All we'd need would be the few units that are unique to us, some relics, warlord traits - and then everything else is the same as the marine dex.  

 

Anyone want to take bets on whether it will or wont go that way? Thoughts? Ideas?

 

edit:  was also thinking though, if they did that it would give us access to way more than most would be comfy with, so thered be little reason to NOT play BA......mnnn.....guess a standalone may be the only way by virtue of us having so many unique units now.

[Memento Of Prospero]

We have way too many special characters and unique unite configurations for us to be relegated to a supplement. Supplements will be for armied that do not have their own model lines. Lets be honest. Black templars were en upgrade kit... and a mistake. No one else is getting folded into supplements.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I still think that if this is the road GW had planned to go down, Dark Angels wouldn't have received a book of their own. They could equally have pulled a BT and folded all marine chapters into the one book, but again they've not done that.

Some level of separation is required though, as in no way should some divergent chapters essentially be 'Space Marines with more'. Harking back to the old, old supplement codices, the Blood Angels one had plenty of unique units (furioso, veteran assault squad), but had some regular marine options reduced to 0-1, or replaced entirely. That and the nonsense of losing models from squads to the death company (which, whilst cool fluffwise, was an absolute PITA deployment-wise).

From the looks of things, each chapter is going to be given its own speciality under the new Space Marine hierarchy, playing to traditional fluff. You've got your siege specialists (Impy Fists), your infiltration specialists (Raven Guard), fast incursion boys (White Scars), etc. Dark Angels have had a lot of focus put on the deathwing and ravenwing, with a crapton of new units for both, but mercifully unlike last time they've actually made the other 8 companies useful; notably, Ravenwing is now way more than bikers (leaving that for WS). All we're really missing is the premier assault chapter - which is going to be us.

It would be DOABLE to fold us into a supplement. Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predator, Sanguinary Priests, Furioso as unique units, plus the special characters (though the furioso could be retconned into an ironclad) but then, as Mort says, there'd be little reason to take regular marines instead of a chapter which has everything else plus more. Heck, we don't even need that much of an update - we're more than competent as an army as we are now, apart from the fact that we suffer a real boots-on-the-ground issue, and no longer being able to assault out of stationary transports has made our fast transports a bit rubbish (but then, our fast everything-else got better).

Also, and I'm going to keep echoing this every couple of months in case the honchos in charge of the BA dex ever read this: I WANT MY SANGUINARY HIGH PRIEST BACK! I loved fielding an apothecary as my HQ - would love the option of doing so again!

[SnorriSnorrison]

I can't really say that I'd like to lose our stand-alone codex, but I wouldn't exactly mind to get a supplement, but there's some stuff to consider.

First: We are a codex chapter, so it's actually quite sense-making for us to be kinda 'rolled'. As lots of posters have said before, we'd actually get updates to our rules faster and with more consistency(once per edition). So, access to cheaper Marines, perhaps even regular Chapter Masters from the new codex(for our successor chapters) topped up with our special rules as replacement for chapter tactics. We've shared the Furioso, the Stormraven and our Veteran Assault Marines with the Vanilla marines already, so it's about time we get something back from them.

The supplement better contain all our relevant stuff, lots of awesome fluff (and I'm not talking about the Sanguinor or Astorath ), something among the lines of Tycho's last stand, Aphael's attack(to find in our current codex) and some other stories, some that actually reflect our character as being much more than 'vampires in spaaaaaaaaaace', perhaps even some HH-stuff. Heck, why not let Mr. Swallow contribute as Fear to Tread was a fine read!

The rules. In the past, our rules have been unique enough to justify at least a magazine of 28 pages to use with C:SM, so if that is to happen again, I'd like to see some unique stuff here and there. I really liked our Scouts being used as seek-and-destroy units that excelled in close combat. Even though our current stand-alone codex killed that notion, with a supplement and new thoughts on the matter we could see at least some WS4 on these guys again. Just an example.

Also, a good replacement for Chapter Tactics. On the other hand, limit our access to Vanilla units were ours are superior, e.g. Furiosos, DC Dreads, Honour Guard, Veteran Assault squads and Regular Assault Squads, Sanguinary Priests, Reclusiarchs, special characters and of course Baals. Oh, and please no Centurions.

Keeping the balance here is quite difficult, but can be done with a little bit of work by someone who's actually got a connection to our chapter.

The price. The strongest contra argument to this. I don't want to pay 50€ for the Vanilla Codex and 39€ for the supplement only to play my army for the next 4 years. Especially if the cover of the supplement looks like .

Snorri

[Xenith]

The way things are going, I think we are much more likely to see a main, stand alone BA codex, followed by C:Flesh Tearers 2 months after, then C:Blood Drinkers, Angels Sanguine, etc.

 

Likewise, GW should do a DA: Consecrators suppliment with heresy era gear.... :P

[teblin]

Let me start out by saying that we deserve our own codex.

 

That's what many thought about the Templars, but GW didn't care.

[skawolf]

I think it could easily be done. I don't think it will be though.

[p34ce]

If it isn't a supplement, we will probably still get all the usual stuff transplanted from the new C:SM. I assume there will be a couple of new BA units - hopefully not badly thought out things like the crap flyers and speeders C:DA got.

 

It seems likely that they'll try to make Dante more viable (can't imagine he's a big seller). I would also expect a new cast for Mephiston (more along the lines of the artwork from his BL book?) and/or maybe a new Dante or Tycho? I'm unsure about this, seeing as how Asmodai and Belial got new sculpts, but Azrael (the most used DA character?) and Ezekiel are still metal?

[TheHarrower]

Curious to know if people have changed their views at all regarding the latest SM stuff coming out. 

 

Nah. I'd still be fine if we received a supplement Codex. I know Templars players largely aren't happy, but I wouldn't care if we got folded in. I really hope they start making supplements more divergent and introducing new special characters, units, and models. That would be sweet.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

Let me start out by saying that we deserve our own codex.

 

That's what many thought about the Templars, but GW didn't care.

 

When the only difference inbetween you and the space marine codex is your troop choice and special characters, it's hard to build up a case.

[teblin]

 

 

Let me start out by saying that we deserve our own codex.

 

That's what many thought about the Templars, but GW didn't care.

 

When the only difference inbetween you and the space marine codex is your troop choice and special characters, it's hard to build up a case.

 

Blood Angels only got a bunch of new units because of a new Codex.

[Memento Of Prospero]

And the fact that hey had been around since the very begining, with special rules and heaps of characterers. This was never the case for templars. They got greedy and for once realized their mistake. Simple enough

[MadGreek]

If they did it right, i think a supplement to the SM Codex could be GREAT.  Why?  A Bolter is a Bolter, a LandRaider is a LandRaider, a Tactical Squad is a Tactical Squad.  Explain them in the main Dex.  In our Dex tell me that all BA vehicles are fast, not what they are.  Tell me I can take Raiders as Dedicated transport.  Give me Chapter Specifics only - Red Thirst, Black Rage, DC, special characters.  Use the space NOT used for explaining what a tactical Marine is to give me a little more BA Fluff.  The book will probably cost as much as a full dex, so hopefully it will be the size - or nearly - of a full Dex.  That would leave a lot of space to be more BA centric.  Right now, a lot of our Dex ISN'T BA.  Its Space Marine.  A lot of the equipment all works the same.

[Leksington]

There were rumors that there would be a Flesh Tearers expansion to a Future BA codex.  If GW makes a BA supplement to C:SM, I find it hard to believe that GW would make a supplement to a supplement codex.

 

So what are the pros and cons of a supplement?

Pros:

-BA become more like Vanilla Marines

 

Cons:

-BA become more like Vanilla Marines

-Higher cost due buying both C:SM and Supplement: Blood Angels.

-It would make BA successor chapter supplements unlikely.

[Office temp]

There were rumors that there would be a Flesh Tearers expansion to a Future BA codex.  If GW makes a BA supplement to C:SM, I find it hard to believe that GW would make a supplement to a supplement codex.

 

So what are the pros and cons of a supplement?

Pros:

-BA become more like Vanilla Marines

 

Cons:

-BA become more like Vanilla Marines

-Higher cost due buying both C:SM and Supplement: Blood Angels.

-It would make BA successor chapter supplements unlikely.

Yo dawg, I heard you like supplements........

[gogmagog]

Keep our codex separate, but a nice flesh tearer supplement would be nice!

[SnorriSnorrison]

Thinking about it again, I'd rather revise my previous statement. Keep the cocex a stand-alone, get some supplements for our brethren (even though the Flesh Tearers and perhaps Knights of Blood are the only ones which are really in need of their own rules) and let things go as they are right now. This would be totally worth as long as we don't get access to those bloody Centurions.

Snorri

[Brother Maikel]

There were rumors that there would be a Flesh Tearers expansion to a Future BA codex. If GW makes a BA supplement to C:SM, I find it hard to believe that GW would make a supplement to a supplement codex.

Thinking about it again, I'd rather revise my previous statement. Keep the cocex a stand-alone, get some supplements for our brethren (even though the Flesh Tearers and perhaps Knights of Blood are the only ones which are really in need of their own rules) and let things go as they are right now. This would be totally worth as long as we don't get access to those bloody Centurions.

Snorri

They're probably going to make a Crimson Fists supplement, as well as a Black Templar supplement, both of whom are successors of the Imperial Fists (who should also get a supplement). If they folded the BA into C:SM, I don't see any reason why the Flesh Tearers (who already have Seth) wouldn't get the same treatment. I mean, they have the same number of SCs as the Crimson Fists do.

Also, just because Centurions are in the codex doesn't mean you're forced to take them. Plus I'm sure there are plenty of really talented modelers who can do the same thing to the Centurions that they did to the Dreadknight, and make it actually look pretty cool. Too bad none of them work for GW.

[DarkMark]

Avoiding the emotional side of the argument: GW are a business, and supplements make good business sense. Once the hard work has been put into a parent codex its easy to tweak rules for a child codex. This means quicker releases for customers, equals more sales for GW, and importantly customers can buy more toys from a greater range. I see that as a win-win for both sides. 

 

I guess IF we see a supplement for the new SM codex we'll be better able to judge. Also, I'd hope that points costs be implemented by stipulating unit X can be bought for the supplement army at plus/ minus X points.This way when the parent codex is updated the supplement is too automatically. This handily means that a child supplement remains current, and suffers less from time lag.

[skawolf]

Thinking about it again, I'd rather revise my previous statement. Keep the cocex a stand-alone, get some supplements for our brethren (even though the Flesh Tearers and perhaps Knights of Blood are the only ones which are really in need of their own rules) and let things go as they are right now. This would be totally worth as long as we don't get access to those bloody Centurions.

Snorri

Perhaps the Lamenters as well?

Can't really think of any beneficial rules for them though. Most would be drawbacks.

[Calnus]

Considering how little has changed in the supplements that have been released, as opposed to the original book, I want to get a revised Codex: Blood Angels instead of a Supplement: Blood Angels.  I don't want to lose the unique units, or have them go to "alternate" loadouts of standard units.

 

Sure, it'd be great if a Tactical Marine was a tactical marine, no matter which book you played (unless you're a Grey Hunter, who is more like a Chaos Space Marine anyway...), but I'd rather see the points costs remain similar and not actually be the same unit.  Last thing I want is for my Troop-choice Assault Marines to be the same exact unit as an Ultramarine Assault Squad out of Fast Attack.  It wouldn't be fair to the Ultras or to us.

[skawolf]

Remind me what the difference on the assault marines are?(from C:SM to C:BA)

I know we get the plasma gun (who takes those haha) but what else?

[Calnus]

Troops slot vs. Fast attack, Red Thirst vs. Combat Tactics, 18pts a model vs. (whatever new dex has, think its 16 per? Close anyways)

 

The big thing is that an assault marine in a BA army with the current codex is point for point better, because the current codex can support him better than the SM one can.  Its not a straight comparison of course, because you get the meta-level choices of what the opponent gets to decide to shoot and deploy around, but as far as the unit's personal performance goes, BA can do it better because not only do they have the individual models, but because they've got the supporting special rules and synergy to gain local superiority at any time.

[Darklighter]

I know I've changed my mind, at least a little. I still think that there are more units/rules to add than the current supliments have done so far for BA's but I'm much more open to the idea than I was when I first heard about it.