Daemonic Possession

[minigun762]

I feel like this upgrade went from an auto include on many vehicles to being forgotten.

 

I'll admit I don't like it on transports. The thought of munching my own guys is annoying.

That leaves Predators and Vindicators. Lowering a Predator's BS seems counter productive when you're trying to create a fire support tank. Not being stunned is nice but I feel like it's more likely to be killed before a stun lands.

Vindicator might be more useful because you can't snapfire ordnance when stunned and BS matters less with blast weapons but it's still spending a fairto amount of points to protect against a single damage result.

[Raulmichile]

Yeah, today the most applicable candidate for daemonic possession is the Vindi.  Sad because possession is very fluffy!!

[Xenith]

The eating troops is silly. It should be optional. Sacrifice one model, regain one hull point or weapon destroyed result.

 

Finally a fluffy reason to have a CSM pushing cultists into a land raider.

[Ammonius]

You are correct.

 

The worst part is the fact that you roll the first turn if a unit starts in a vehicle, and may lose a model even though there is no way that there is a missing hull point. In my opinion, the way the rule is written makes me think that it the paragraph was added to on more than one occasion, and then it was never edited into a coherent thought.

 

As for non-transports, I don't use it there either. The double-downside of BS3 and the status protection becoming die roll based is enough to take this points sink off my radar. On units that come with it, you get to ignore BS on the Heldrake with the baleflamer, and I haven't used Fiends yet, but it sounds like they do OK.

[Sception]

The worst part is the fact that you roll the first turn if a unit starts in a vehicle, and may lose a model even though there is no way that there is a missing hull point. In my opinion, the way the rule is written makes me think that it the paragraph was added to on more than one occasion, and then it was never edited into a coherent thought.

An awful lot of the codex feels this way to me. It didn't even stop with the codex, as some of the FAQ rulings have felt that way, too, especially the arbitrary and unnecessary major buff to what was already the most powerful, balance distorting unit in the game.

 

 

This is what comes from a lack of real editing and play testing, along with insufficient rules development time & resources all round.

[totgeboren]

The odd thing is that it costs so much. You look at it and can't decide if you want it or not (which ends up in a definite not when it comes to transports), even without knowing it costs points, and then when you see it's costed to be a sort of replacement for POTMS I at least think "What were they smoking?".

I'm not sure I would take it even if it was free. On the Vindi definitely (if it was free), but for the points now, I probably wouldn't.

[minigun762]

While I don't mind the rolling aspect of it, I do agree that even the reduced cost is too high. It has just as many drawbacks as positives, so it really should have been a fluff upgrade with a very minimal cost, for someone using a possessed vehicle list.

 

As it is, even with the Vindicator which is the best case scenario, I'd rather use those points for a havoc launcher or even the destroyer blades.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah.....definitely not worth it on anything other than a Vindicator and even then it's a bit iffy. Transports it's completely out of the question, especially if someone were to put terminators in a possessed land raider? I agree with the predator part too, paying for a gun platform and then paying more points on top to reduce the WS by one is definitely not worth it.

[minigun762]

Yeah.....definitely not worth it on anything other than a Vindicator and even then it's a bit iffy. Transports it's completely out of the question, especially if someone were to put terminators in a possessed land raider? I agree with the predator part too, paying for a gun platform and then paying more points on top to reduce the WS by one is definitely not worth it.

You know what would've made it worth it on a Predator? If it allowed it to move and fire to full effect.

[Brother Ambroz]

Still, even if it could, would you want to pay for possession on a tri-las pred? I'd rather keep BS 4 and brave the odds. On a dakka pred it might make it worth it then though.

[Dam13n]

What would've made it worth it really would be:

 

"The Daemonically Possessed vehicle gains the Daemon universal special rule."

 

Who wouldn't want a 5++ save on a Landraider?

 

;)

[minigun762]

What would've made it worth it really would be:

"The Daemonically Possessed vehicle gains the Daemon universal special rule."

Who wouldn't want a 5++ save on a Landraider?

Ahhh that would've been nice as well. Might require a slight price hike though.

[Sception]

Don't think so. It's already overpriced AND comes with extra drawbacks for both shooty vehicles and transports. Even with the daemon rule, I don't think it would be worth taking.

[totgeboren]

If it gave the Daemon Special rule, I would definitely consider it, maybe even for a Land Raider. I don't think I would take it though, the chance of rolling a 1 and eating one of the passengers is just to much.

[Dam13n]

What if the "eating" was phrased like this:

"During the shooting phase, instead of firing one of its weapons, a Daemonically Possessed transport vehicle with an embarked unit that has lost one or more hull points may consume one of its passengers. If it does so, the vehicle regains a single hull point. The consumed passenger is then removed as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed.

A Daemonically Possessed vehicle may only regain a single hull point in this manner per shooting phase."

That way it's entirely optional yet balanced. Add in a 5++ and/or the ability to ignore stunned/shaken results, at the cost of BS3, and I reckon that'll do.

it'd probably need a 15/25pts cost (with the 25 being for the Landraider) but that'd be OK.

[minigun762]

I assumed you meant replacing the entire possession rule with the "daemon" special rule, not adding to it.

[Nehekhare]

"The Daemonically Possessed vehicle gains the Daemon universal special rule."

that is... offensively absurd! ;)

 

another easy fix to a lot of problems with the dex would be the "daemon" USR also conferring Fearless and EW.

[Sception]

Yeah, but that's problematic on a number of issues.  Fearless would have been fine, I think, but EW doesn't really fit with daemons.  I mean, the whole point of force weapons is that they work on daemons, making daemons universally immune to the force weapon rule was kind of dumb then it first happened, and I'm kind of glad its gone.  Maybe 'immune to instant death from high strength attacks', instead?  But now we're delving into wishlisting, and that's a long and fruitless row to hoe.

[Nehekhare]

C:CD is a whole other can of worms, but agreed: force weapons should ignore the daemon USR.

[minigun762]

Looking at the current best case scenario with possession and Vindicators, is the near immunity to not being able to shoot worth the point cost and BS reduction?

[Brother Ambroz]

I think it depends if you've got points to spare or not Minigun. That and what type of list. If you're using a spearhead/assault sort of list then I'd use possession.

[Ammonius]

I think that Daemonic Possession would have to have a clear-cut, reliable bonus to be worth the points. Especially if GW is trying to sell it as a POTMS-level wargear. Maybe if possessed vehicles always counted as Fast, to represent the reckless, inhuman desire of the daemon-driver to soak its hull in the blood of its enemies.

 

And then, you know, fast Vindicators. Boosh.

[minigun762]

I think it depends if you've got points to spare or not Minigun. That and what type of list. If you're using a spearhead/assault sort of list then I'd use possession.

I wasn't so much thinking for me, just in general.

 

Personally, I tend to favor quantity over quality so I'd leave it at home but I see the value in it.

[Dam13n]

In it's current incarnation it's just not worth it.

15 points can buy much better stuff than Possession.

In 6th how often do you really get stunned/shaken and have the vehicle survive the round of shooting? I've not seen it once. Generally people use either dedicated anti-tank weapons against vehicles (so AP1/2 invariably takes the damage result above 3) or use high volume of high strength shots (Autocannons) which results in glance-wrecking. Plus most people I play against take the view of focusing firepower to get "kill points". That means your tank will often get wrecked through multiple glance/penetrates in a single round of shooting, if it doesn't get blown to bits by an explode result.

At that point an ability to nullify shaken/stunned is pointless. That's why I would prefer a 5++ and either my version of the "consume" ability or just "It will not Die!" for possession.

The depressing thing is that PotMS works out as a 20pt upgrade (Land Raider 250pts (Loyal) vs. 230pts (Traitor)). 15 points for a useless ability like possession seems like an insult in comparison.

[Brother Ambroz]

Minigun, I didn't think you were talking about yourself either. :p

 

Dam13n, I think it depends on your local meta. I've been stunned/shaken quite a few times when I bring my rhinos/chimeras lately.