Are Defilers Still Viable in 6th?

[Eulfein]

Hi All,

 

I'm an Iron Warriors fan and I noticed that the Defiler is rarely a part of anyone's army list these days. What makes the Mauler/Forgefiend better than the defiler? More Dakka? Twin P-Fists and Lasher Tendrils/Magma cutters? Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

 

Iron within....Iron without.

[carnosaur93]

i think its mostly the points-cost, and that it is not specialized to fill a single role (which in my book is a good thing, but it scares off some people) no matter how you load it out, it will allways atleast have the cannon and two CCW... its also woth noting that it has an extra HP, and have acces to the vehicle armory (DIRGE CASTERS, RAWR!)

 

all in all, they dont seem a bad choise to me, but between the forgefiends dedicated shootiness, and the maulers awesome mobility, it doesnt really look like it is worth it in comparison

[Eulfein]

thanks for the feedback.....its a shame though, but i see your point.

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah, they are pretty expensive points wise, and the model admittedly doesn't look as good as the megazords.  It looks like the giant spider thing from the Wild Wild West movie.

[Brother Ambroz]

Basically it's just too expensive. Heldrakes fulfill the same role but do it better and cheaper (both AP 3, baleflamer is more accurate, harder to kill because it's a flyer, etc). Fiends are alright for a semi-competitive/fun role but havocs, oblits and preds (in an armored list) are king.

[minigun762]

There is also the case that the Soul Grinder is tougher and cheaper in almost every loadout you can give it.

 

They bloated all of the daemon vehicles with special rules that upped the price tag but Defiler got hit the hardest I believe.

[Eulfein]

too bad....the defiler was a beast back in the day. oh well....keep moving forward. =) the forgefiend does look a lot better though.

[Chaeron]

Echo the sentiments of my colleagues - sadly, there are better options more deserving of points!

[Nehekhare]

they are not any worse or more overcosted than the fiends, those just fulfill other roles on the table. what makes the defiler obsolete is simply that - besides the obligatory heldrakes - you need ranged anti-tank, not another template that scatters and allows cover saves. As an IW player, you will be pleased to hear that obliterators remain the most cost-effective HS choice. If you really want to field the model, ally in a nurgle soul grinder with phlegm (does the same while being cheaper and much more survivable).

[Beachymike123]

i too believe the defiler has almost been given the squat treatment by GW (i say almost as at least it still has its rules and model). when compared to the fiends, it seems like the in-betweener that no-one can give a special job. it can do well though, and it can still terrorize infantry on the board, but again the mauler has the better tools for the job and the dakka has better options to make it more effective. i think the defiler is almost a missed opportunity, and could have been given better treatment. its almost like it was the prototype to the fiends (back in 3.5) that now just hangs in there for nostalgia. 

just my 2p though. 

[zyl-]

I sort of feel like it suffers from the "ap3 syndrome" that a lot of our codex has trouble with. If we only ever had to face marine armies, this would have a solid showing along with thousand sons and warp talons. But the world is not that ideal.

[Nusquam]

My biggest issue with it is that the cannon is Ordnance. You have to snap fire with the autocannon and can't even fire the flamer. I think one of it's biggest problems is that is is split down the middle as far as roles. A 72" cannon and an autocannon but 2 DCCWs and flamer? So you can have it stand off far away but you're only using a fraction of it's worth. If you charge it up the center with support it can do serious damage maximizing it's value. Otherwise you will be hard pressed to make the points work. At only AV12 mind you, so it's already a fire magnet but with low armor. The 5++ and IWND is pretty good but it still has a 1 in 6 change of exploding after a pen, never mind if the weapon has low AP. If it had AV13 I wouldn't mind, but AV12 is not going to last through the fire that will be directed at it. I would rather use a Hadesfiend and/or Soul Grinder which is cheaper and tougher to crack, plus I get daemons!

 

It isn't bad but it's eclipsed by new shiny units as far as point for point worth.

 

IMHO

[Trevak Dal]

They should all be monstrous creatures anyways, or at least markable with some effect.  If you could give a defiler bale flamers, ecto plasmas or hades auto cannons (which should be available for Dreds too-which should be markable also) it would be awesome.

 

As it is, I can't even bring myself to prime it.  It just sits collecting dust.  Nobody will let me run a single Slaughterfiend (Defiler stats buffed to Beserker stats and rules with 2 extra ccws IIRC) so I see no point in it.  Think I may take it out to the shooting range and "hit giant crab's weakpoint for massive damage" (buckshot).

[Deus de Mortalis]

Planned obsolescence. They couldn't sell forgefiends, maulerfiends, or helldrakes if they weren't more points efficient and specialized than the units every Chaos player already has.

[Sception]

Bologna. It wasn't great before, either, and the fiends aren't great either. The conspiracy theories are ridiculous. If they made old stuff suck to sell new stuff, then mutilators, dark apostles, warp smiths, warp talons, raptors, and fiends would be good, and instead they all range between 'teh suck' and 'meh'. And if they deliberately made the old stuff terrible, then plague marines wouldn't still be the best of our troop options by a mile.

 

What are our best options by category?

 

HQ: Chaos Lord (old model, and the new HQs suck)

Elite: nothing

Troops: Plague Marines (old again)

Fast: Baledrake, sure

Heavy: Oblits & Havocs, again both old

 

Sure, the expensive new Baledrake is stupid overpowered & underpriced, but all signs point to that being due to incompetence, rather then design. After all the runners up for fast slots are old bikes and spawn, not the new raptors or talons.

 

 

Anyway, yeah, the Defiler's rather unfocused in its armament (which has always been a problem for it), and it costs a heck of a lot, though its extra hull point means it isn't crazy overpriced, just regular overpriced. Yeah, it costs too much for its offensive capabilities, and way too much for its front armor value (nothing that costs 200 points should be that easy to take out with a single lucky shot). And it's battle cannon is basically redundant (along with everything else AP3 in our book, from warp talons & thousand sons to power swords and possessed) as long as baledrakes are dominating the edition and our army book. But what are you gonna do? Lots of units in the new book suck, new and old alike.

 

 

Defiler's bad, but its not awful. The range has proved useful once or twice in short edge games. Most of the time, though, you're better off trying to find points for some daemon allies & running it as a soul grinder.

[totgeboren]

I found it does bring something to the table that the rest of the CSM list lacks, and that is really long range. Though it is only during Dawn of War deployment where the long range of the main gun doesn't matter much. And especially when you get Hammer and Anvil deployment the Defiler is much better than both Fiends. Also, with the exception of the Heldrake, the big blast forces your opponent to spread out. I have had quite a few games where my opponent realised my only blast weapons was a single Havoc Launcher, which makes it much easier for him to move and focus forces where he needs them.

I have often had games where I wished I had both a really long range gun, and Ordnance. It's great at popping Eldar tanks, and can often hit two at a time if you play with terrain.

But, it is simply too expensive, by about 30 pts. Not something for those who want the best list available, but 30 pts is only about two marines anyway, and it gives you a pretty useful gun without requiring allies, and it is actually quite good at preventing your enemy from getting line-breaker, as it is vicious in close combat and has fleet (it is slightly better in close combat than the maulerfiend at least).

[Plaguecaster]

I don't really think it is terrible ok it's a bit expensive and fragile at AV12 but I still believe it is still quite good I swear by them and always have to have at least one I am currently converting another so I can run double. I love it for its battle cannon a 72 ap3 str8 large blast ordnance capable of bringing the hurt on nearly everything it's a generalist designed for just about everything.

 

Ok sure the Soul Grinder is cheaper and stronger but I prefer Defiler for one I never take allies so yeah and two it's cannon has so much larger reach than the grinder with its 36 compared to the battle cannon do you can keep the Defiler out of your enemies range if you want. If you take a Defiler its going to die you may get lucky and have it survive but defilers strike fear into your opponents so bad they always target it whic can be a good thing and bad it's daemon and it will not die can be helpful plus it will attract fire from other units but will generally blow up most of the time. Combat wise they can be quite good especially if you give it a power scourge plus a combi flamer but even then firing both the heavy flamer and reaper before charging with dirge casters can be quite devastating provided you charge the right unit.

 

Others may hate it but I love the big guy too much not to use one and am eventually planning on running three of the suckers.

[Zhorzh]

If you're thinking of getting a Defiler, you need to ask yourself 2 questions:

 

1. Why do you need a Str8 AP3 pie plate in your army, because it will make your army better or just for the heck of it?

2. Why would you take it instead of a unit of Havocs and Oblits, again because it's a better choice for your army or just for the heck of it?

 

The problem with Defiler is that nowadays you can max out your HS with Havocs and Oblits and take Daemon allies with a min troop and a Herald for small number of points, and a Soulgrinder.

[Dam13n]

At the start of 6th (with the old gav-dex) I enjoyed using a defiler with 2 extra DCCWs. It made for a great distraction unit.

 

Now it's just too expensive for that role.

 

If it were AV13 or cheaper, it would be viable, but it isn't so it's not.

 

The fact that the model is a pain in the arse to assemble and transport doesn't help either.

[Nehekhare]

if I wanted extreme range pie plates in my army, I'd ally in guard and take a leman russ (50pts less, AV14, 4++ behind ADL, squadrons of 3, heavy vehicle, so many more variants/options)...

 

which is another way to use the defiler model actually ;)

 

now that I think of it...I own 2 defilers, 2 forgefiends, 1 blood slaughterer/maulerfiend, 4 helbrutes and a brass scorpion converted from 2 defilers - and the only thing out of these that I actually fielded in the last 10 years (outside of apocalypse) was a single hades forgefiend... proxying a contemptor LOL.

[Eulfein]

wow, really got the ball rolling here. maybe just maybe the defiler will get some love when the next edition rolls around in like what? 4 years?

[Sception]

I actually use my defiler, as I really like the model (well, with some judicious conversion work), and love its fluff, particularly its ties to the Black Legion, my chosen sub faction. Maybe it's just that it was the first Daemon Engine in a chaos marine codex, but it really defined what Daemon Engines are and what they should look like to me. Not like big organic dinosaurs with armored plating and cyborg implants, but like a huge, ungainly mechanical monstrosity. Not a daemon with an engine strapped to it, but an engine animated and possessed by a daemonic spirit.

But anyway, using it only highlights its draw backs. 5++ is nice, but a smaller vehicle gets to benefit from an even nicer 4++ cover save, and that's without extra points built into its cost. 4 HP is nice, but with armor 12 you're probably going to lose it to a pen result before you've made it to 3. IWND is nice, but see the previous sentence. It's nice to have extremely long range and decent melee capabilities, but you're probably not going to use both in the same game, and there doesn't seem to be any discount built into its cost, so no matter what you're using it for, you're paying too much. And battle cannons in general are largely obsolete in a list that can field baledrakes. For 30 points less, I might add.


Again, it isn't awful. If you field one, you'll get some cool and fun moments out of it. Like the game where the opponent kept rolling poorly on the damage result table, and the defiler kept restoring lost hull points, making it feel invincible, if only for that one game. Or the game you roll well on your invulnerable saves and it tears through two carnifexen and a warrior prime in melee. Or the game where your drakes just don't feel like showing up, but the defiler picks up the slack by blasting away multiple squads of marine infantry while you wait.

But these will be the exception, and for the most part you'll feel like you're paying 50 to 100 more points than you should have as your defiler is popped by random lascannons or rail guns or drop podding meltaguns in the first couple turns of the game, or you hold it in reserve to make sure you get a shot off, only to find it has no serious targets left to engage when it rolls on because the drakes have already roasted everything.

[Fibonacci]

Getting 2 dice pick the highest when roling for armor pen is nice.  Using daemonforge to reroll both of those for armor pen is great.  But missing your targets completely while taking an HP loss on the same turn makes you wonder why you paid almost 200 points for it :(

[Nehekhare]

 

 

it really defined what Daemon Engines are

 

It began as a vehicle with MC melee attacks, then became a possessed walking battlecannon and now is a walker with the daemon USR - no, that's not exactly what I'd call "defined" ;)

 

one of those instances where GW just hasn't really come to a conclusion about what exactly it is meant to be and thus go with whatever is fashionable at the time...

[Sception]

I ment aesthetically more than in terms of rules.