Antarius Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Bologna. It wasn't great before, either, and the fiends aren't great either. The conspiracy theories are ridiculous. If they made old stuff suck to sell new stuff, then mutilators, dark apostles, warp smiths, warp talons, raptors, and fiends would be good, and instead they all range between 'teh suck' and 'meh'. And if they deliberately made the old stuff terrible, then plague marines wouldn't still be the best of our troop options by a mile. What are our best options by category? HQ: Chaos Lord (old model, and the new HQs suck) Elite: nothing Troops: Plague Marines (old again) Fast: Baledrake, sure Heavy: Oblits & Havocs, again both old Sure, the expensive new Baledrake is stupid overpowered & underpriced, but all signs point to that being due to incompetence, rather then design. After all the runners up for fast slots are old bikes and spawn, not the new raptors or talons. Amen. The conspiracy theories really bug me. As for the Defiler, it's not great. But in not-overly competitive games I find it usually does well. It's pretty flexible and it can mess up infantry and light-medium armour pretty well. It also tends to draw a lot of fire which can be nice in itself (assuming it doesn't blow up to the first lucky shot ofc). It can also add to general armour saturation and consequent confusion for your enemy, if that's your thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 it really defined what Daemon Engines are It began as a vehicle with MC melee attacks, then became a possessed walking battlecannon and now is a walker with the daemon USR - no, that's not exactly what I'd call "defined" one of those instances where GW just hasn't really come to a conclusion about what exactly it is meant to be and thus go with whatever is fashionable at the time... You talking about the CSM codex or just the Defiler? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 You talking about the CSM codex or just the Defiler? ;) yeah I think they had a pretty good idea of that around 3.5 but wasted it when someone came up with the "less is more"-theme... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Hmm.. the idea of bringing it out of reserve actually doesn't seem bad. It prevents the drop pod insta kill that always seems to work, and I don't think you'd really run into a "no target" situation unless EVERYTING is in mele, and even then it's handy to back up a mele if nothing else. Reason being, they can target anything and at least be partially effective. Either way, they are certainly a long way from competition grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachymike123 Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 You talking about the CSM codex or just the Defiler? yeah I think they had a pretty good idea of that around 3.5 but wasted it when someone came up with the "less is more"-theme... yeah - it had fairly good potential back then too. for +25pts extra (and back then that was still 25pts cheaper than now) you gained indirect fire, which at least made it able to fill in the artillery gap. it's like its a jack of all trades that is overpriced now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Ok, I'm going to play devils advocate here. I have noticed that in the way my list is built that a defiler fits in fairly well (would be better if it was cheaper, but its not), in that almost all of my units are well rounded and able to handle many situations. this well roundedness in all my units means that to take out a target fast I need to suport my units well with other units. this jack of all trades situation give my lists alot of flexibilty in that i can use almost any unit (with a friend, preferably) to knock out/ put a good dent in most of my opponents units. If list building with synergy in mind the defiler does fit in well in that it can help alot of units out in alot of situations. On the other side if you list is geared more twards specialist units that are great at one thing and need suport from other specialists to make up for shortcomings than the defiler wont fit in well in your list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Ok, I'm going to play devils advocate here. I have noticed that in the way my list is built that a defiler fits in fairly well (would be better if it was cheaper, but its not), in that almost all of my units are well rounded and able to handle many situations. this well roundedness in all my units means that to take out a target fast I need to suport my units well with other units. this jack of all trades situation give my lists alot of flexibilty in that i can use almost any unit (with a friend, preferably) to knock out/ put a good dent in most of my opponents units. If list building with synergy in mind the defiler does fit in well in that it can help alot of units out in alot of situations. On the other side if you list is geared more twards specialist units that are great at one thing and need suport from other specialists to make up for shortcomings than the defiler wont fit in well in your list. You field 0-1 baledrake, correct? ok, about synergy: when multiple units work together to create an effect that is greater than their individual effords combined, that is synergy (e.g.: 1+1=3). if you just pile on effects, it is only a normal sequence of actions (1+1=2) - which is usually the case on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Nehekhare: 0 drakes, i choose not to use em. I run a spawn rush list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 then it's no wonder you have a place for ranged templates. baledrakes just do it better for only 85% of the points. But where does your anti-tank come from when your HS options are clogged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I'm not saying that all i use is 3 defilers. when i run defiler its with 2 units of oblits and my troops usually carry meltas. Defilers can take out tanks in melee (with some luck and support) and if your board has some decent terrain (to hide behind and advance). with the way i play, most of my opponents dont get much time to shoot at me. DE give me hell because they can outrun me but then i just shoot at them instead. Havent played vendetta spam yet and that would probably be a losing match up. I was really just saying that defilers can work if you go with a generalist approach to picking units. Mabye i've been lucky and mine has outperformed the law of averages. Or mabye i dont expect it to win games and instead be a big nusance to my opponant (it is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Defilers can take out tanks in melee If the tank is coming for you, maybe - but then it usually carries stuff that'll end you. I'm not convinced of the generalist approach. the game itself has moved away from it. a generalist will aways loose against a specialist and pays double points for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 always is a harsh absolute. it is still a dice game. I'm still at about a 50% win loss ratio and im pretty sure i can pin my losses down to either bad dice (rolling consistantly below the average) or bad positioning, not bad units. "If the tank is coming for you, maybe - but then it usually carries stuff that'll end you."- correct and this is why I try to support my units with another. i'm not going to send one defiler against a transport w/ troops alone. Im a "water" warrior kind of person. Am i going to win a huge tournament and the accolades of all 40k gamers, no. I'm not even going to enter as thats not the kind of environment i like. To each their own i guess. The OP asked if a defiler is viable, in my experience it is viable. Not the best choice but viable. I usually go with Oblit spam in my HS slot as that is even more well rounded but i like to change it up sometimes. "I'm not convinced of the generalist approach. the game itself has moved away from it. a generalist will aways loose against a specialist and pays double points for it"- a speciallist list will also have some weakness (as a grossly generalized example, a super shooty list will probably be weaker in CC, so my generalist list will use its better CC abilities to help me counteract their advantage) that a generalist list can exploit whereas the wrong specialist list will get stomped (rock paper scissors). My list has never tabled anyone of a similar experiance as me but it still wins. I'm of the a win is a win group. I dont need to clean the table to enjoy a win. Conversly the only times i have been tabled was when i first started playing. Even when i lose im still in the game till the end as i concentrate on winning objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 nothing wrong with the way you like to play. you don't have to win tournaments to give good advice about 40k (although the scene's bad reputation in this regards is rather underserved). so what does "viable" mean anyway? that you can field it without autoloosing? Well, that is the case with everything (as long as you field it legally, and even then...). Or does it mean that it is the thing you should field to maximize the effectiveness of your army? then there propably is only one single configuration of choices for each build/codex. It may sound absolute, but yes, it is a dice game - and dice games work by propabilities, which are measured in absolute values. not that the impropable is impossible, but there is simply no other way to base your expectations of performance on. your grot may kill a bloodthirster, yet you wouldn't pay 251 pts for it because of that. The generalist/specialist metaphor becomes a bit wanky when it comes to diverse environments. nothing in 40k does only one thing, but everything does something - either better or worse. I'd rather say there are cost-effective units and there are shelf-sitters, the latter being not really what you'd call viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwell Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 In terms of point efficiency, folks here are correct. However, most lament the Defilers lack of a specific role on the field. i.e. it has a battle cannon and cc weapons. That said the Defiler is great to drop next to an objective. It provides Long range support AND can take anything in cc when your opponent is moving in on said objective. In other words, it also acts as a deterrent. Yes Oblits and Havocs are better ranged units but they won't offer much resistance in cc. AV 12 is still a bit of a bummer but so what. I don't care if my Defilers survives the game. It is not ever crucial that he survives the game. He is not a scoring unit. Let him take the heat of my other units that really matter. A final note, if you Re going armour heavy, a Defilers is a better choice than Oblits and Havocs so it depends on your list as a whole. PS. Stupid apple auto- correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 like Sunwell said, they are also suprisingly quick so they can react to a someonething coming in near your backfield and can keep up with a fast moving force. When I include one this is what i use it for, it sits next to my plasma Plague Marines, lobbing rounds with its cannon and if something pops up in my back field i use him to help keep my plagues alive. in my list this frees up my Oblits to DS as far forward as i need them to go to be effiective and keep up with my fast movers. To illustrate waht i mean, my list has 10 to 15 spawn, mabye raptors or warptalons, mabye a DS mutilator or 2, a lord w/ Jumppack, 2 units of oblits, a defiler and 3 units of PMs w/ or w/o rhinos. the defiler will hang back with one of the PMs to secure home objective. The spawn, raptors/ warptalons and PMs start on the board and RUSH to objectives. the oblits and Mutilators will DS in and start shooting/ chopping their way to happyness. This general tactic works well for me and most of the time by turn 3 all my units are in HtH if i want them to be. With as in your face as i like to play the defiler's ability to give me some range shooting while my army moves up is very handy as is his combat ability to help guard my back lines. The exact same thing can be done with a unit of Oblits, i know. but this an example of how i use a Defiler when i include one. Nek: I guess my definition of viable is along the lines of "not auto lose". Our dex is not a point and click dex, to win with chaos you have to really play well regardless of what units you chose (if you dont use all the "best" units you really have to be at the top of your game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 He is not a scoring unit. Let him take the heat of my other units that really matter. he becomes scoring (and an easy vp) in big guns never tire, but in every scenario, he has to be alive to do his thing... Our dex is not a point and click dex, to win with chaos you have to really play well regardless of what units you chose you make it sound as if that was a good thing and not just bad codex design ;) aside from that, there are many ways to use a defiler effectively, yet still there are more effective choices than a defiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Nek, i cannot disagree with you at all. On the positive side its better than the last dex and i like my lil plastic chaos guys better than lil plastic space wolves/vampires/chaos killer/etc....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Right I'm going to weigh in as a ultra-feather weight chaos newbie. I am currently planning my list which I will collect for my Iron Warriors army (it will expand from the 2500 points but still). And one of the first things I put in was a defiler, not because it's a game winner, not because I had a single specific role for it to occupy but instead because I like the chaos it can wreak and the "panic" from an opponent to take it out before it does any of that damage. Sure it might not survive most games, and it might be a sizeable point sink, but for the kind of way I want to play it suits be perfectly. In fact I have taken no Helldrakes purely for that reason, I don't see how they fit in an army like the one I'm trying to build. And personally don't see how they fit inside a story based army anyway - not the point. Back on topic I get the feeling that the Defiler will actually provide some (if you'll excuse the pun) chaos to games. Being able to take on anything it lays its eyes on (bar a combat wraithknight maybe) and drawing some considerable fire away from other objects in my army. Of course when you consider my planned army is designed to fill the field with guardsmen bodies, I'm not to worried about pot luck shots pen'ing my AV12. Just my (worthless) 2p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I think that the Soul Grinder is the nail in the coffin for the Defiler in the 6th. It so much more interesting, has way more options and allows us to have a unit that has Skyfire, plus it can Deep Strike. So if you build your Soul Grinder for melee you can drop it near the enemy unit, if you build it for fire support you have the options to make it a tough one. Yes, you need the daemon codex and the daemon tax for it but the new daemons are a really good book and you can have some scary combinations with them and the CSM. So while I love the lore on the Defiler if I am about to minmax my list I think a Soul Grinder would be a much more viable option. The main problems that I have with our Defilers is first and foremost their cost, followed by the lack of options and lastly the lack of Marks. Marked Defilers would be an awesome thing if done properly. As it is now you pay a ton of points for a metal bucket with some claws and legs and a gun of which main duty can be replicated with so much better and cheaper options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 If I ever bother to get my models out of storage, I'll probably end up keeping and building my Defiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 if most defilers do is melee , then why not take maulerfiends. Same melee ability vs tank , fast and cost a lot less. If someone takes CS or BL ally he can fit almost 2 maulers for the cost of 1 defiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I realize that this topic is old but; Defilers end up in the "jack-of-all-trades"-category, which most of the times means it's bad. They can melee and they can shoot, but considering their cost, they are worse (and slower) at melee than Maulerfiends, and less shooty than Forgefiends. (Battlecannon is nice, but I'd rather take 8 S8 shots and hunt vehicles/MC's) On top of this, do you really want to pay over 200 points for a AV12 walker? If someone is dead set on bringing a Defiler or two, I'd tell them to ally in deamons and use Soul Grinders instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 They could be called jack of all trades , if they could shot well . A wave serpent is a JoaT, transport , anti tank , anti horde , anti meq all in one . Defilers pay 100pts or more for a weapon that was good 3 editions ago . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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