Air Assault Scout Army - Opinions requested

[Hyaenidae]

So, this question goes out to you "All Scout Army" fanatics. With the introduction of the Storm Raven and the Storm Talon, how have you integrated them into your scouts? Any successes / failures? I've been wanting to do a Scout army for a long time, but never quite found the right list for them that would be both fluffy and at least semi-effective. Off the top of my head (without my books here to look at), here's what I was thinking...

 

Captain (Cheap, like maybe a Grenade launcher only)

3 10 man scout squads w/bolters and HB

3 Storm Ravens w/ CML & Hurricanes

 

then

 

3 LSS w/ MM

3 5 man Scouts (not sure on a solid set up here)

 

OR

 

3 Storm Talons

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[greatcrusade08]

hi mate

ive been considering an air cav scout army for some time, it occurs to me to be one of the better ways to run them in 6th ed (or at leats until the nex codex).

 

ccw scouts went the way of the dodo recently, but storm ravens are the one way to revitalise them somewhat, id consider running a unit, offensively they are just the same as assault marines, defensively a little more delicate, but they are alot cheaper.

Its a good place to put your HQ choice too, although you might get more value from a chaplain (or both)

 

The good thing about heavy marine flyer armies, is that its not often done and most people dont prepare for it, sure the necron air force armies are scaring people into taking more anti-air, but trip ravens are a tough prospect for anyone.

 

The LSS are interesting, you need to keep them alive into the second turn so that you dont auto lose, perhaps turn one into a dakka base with Hb on the vehicle and one on the unit inside?

if the LSS gets nuked, you can bundle the unit out into cover and G2G until the reserves arrive.

 

MMs are nice, but with the number of heavy weapons on the flyers, they arent essential, perhaps turning another into a heavy flamer.. it negates the BS3 of the scouts (unless your running Vulkan at which point id say take MMs all day).

the squad inside should match thier weapons to thier rides..

if your using a heavy flamer storm, give the sqaud a combi flamer, for HB, give them a HB and so on.

for a melta storm, you could run a combi-melta, but a new addition to the scout arsenal is the plasma-slinger (2x plasma pistol on the sergeant), and its a weapon he can fire again and again.

 

im not too up on my flyers, but isnt thier a cap on how many units can reserve?

 

edit: another thing to consider, is that LSS and storm talons use the same FA slots, unless your using 2k points.. although if the rumours of 6th ed dedciated LSS are true, youll be laughing.

also if they become dedciated, they will get the infiltrate rule, granted by the scout unit inside, which will bring them more inline with how they worked in 5th ed.

[Hyaenidae]

My bad, GC. I tried to seperate the LSS and the Talons with the big OR, as in "I'm not sure which would be better to compliment the StormRavens; LSS's or Talons?". Sorry I wasn't clear. My fear is that 3 ten man scout squad will get eaten alive, so I was trying to see if the LLS with an extra 15 dudes on the field would help. At the same time, I keep thinking that the Talons could raise some serious hell, killing enough that those extra 15 wouldn't be needed. Thoughts?

So, have I misread the Flyers rules? Do I have to start them in reserve? if so, that....well, that sucks. Alot. KInda put's a kabosh on the idea I had for the fluff I'm building.

Thanks to the fluff, my Chapter does not use Chaplains. Libbies, yes; chappies, no. Would a Librarian help these fellas if used right? Or should I just stick with the captain? Would a certain build help, because right now I'm thinking super-cheap, and just giving him a Grenade Launcher; not only to help the squad, but to stick to the Special Forces feel I'm aiming for with this army. If I'm just downright being dumb here, please let me know.

What would be a solid build on the Ravens to compliment this force? I'm thinking that the CML and Hurr. Bolters will be mandatory, for vehicle hunting and thinning out horde armies, respectively.

I really apprieciate the solid info on what kind of builds to match to LSS, that actually helps quite a bit. I'll probably stick with Flamers and HB's then, with matching squads. I'm avoiding CCW squads anyway, so that works out for me. Dakka dakka dakka.

For the squads riding in the Ravens, would HB's or ML's be a better choice?

Sorry about all the questions, but I'm new to the all scout idea. Thanks for the assist, brother.

EDIT; One last question... are Camo Cloaks worth it with this specific build of mine? They seem like they're worth their weight in gold, but again, I bow to the wisdom of the Sensei, lol.

[greatcrusade08]

came cloaks can really start to rack up your points, i only ever take them with snipers as they help with thier roles in every turn.

if your using transports, the cloaks will only help once they are on foot and then only situationally.

what cloaks do is turn a 14pt bolter scout into a 17pt marine-lite, i cant see the point tbh, but YMMV.. i prefer more bodies

sorry missed the OR, im sleep deprived

im fairly certain without checking my rulebook (not at hand im working on wood elves atm) that flyers HAVE to start in reserve and that only a max of 50% of your units can start in reserves.. what im not sure on are the specifics on whether the embarked units count, i do know that Ics and an attached unit only count as 1. it gets very complicated.

what i do know is that drop pods dont count towards the reserves, so if you wanted to have everything off the board at the start of the game, put half in flyers, half in pods.

ive found with scouts, that you need more anti-tank from your support elements, if your running a min of 30 bolter scouts, i wouldnt worry too much about the hurr bolters, and work on getting assault cannons, MLs, MMs and the like.

if the rumours are true we might be seeing a new codex in the next few months, and i suspect the change to dedicated LSS, means you could find a more suitable balance with the LSS/talons/ravens, experimenting would be key IMO, play a few games with 3 ravens and see if thats too many

edit: never be ashamed to run a themed list, the more stringent the theme, the more difficult the task, but it does keep you interested even if you lose.. i probably wouldnt still be doing this if i didnt use themes.

if you not using ccw, thats fine, massed bolters works just aswell, perhaps when you playtest you could proxy some shotgunners, they can often provide surprising results

[Hyaenidae]

Themed lists are my bread and butter, lol. Hell, look at my Marines Malevolent! No fear there, but I want my guys to sweep in and air assault, like a Group Detatchment with UH-60's and MH-6's. Swoop, kill, carry on. Without that ability, then the theme ceases to function, and I'll have to wait until the new codex comes out and pray the LSS do become dedicated trans. Drop pods just don't do it for me.

 

For now, though, I looked at both the flyers and reserves rules. The flyer rules do specifially state that any vehicle designated as a flyer must begin in reserve. The reserve rules do state that only up to half of your forces can be in reserve (which kills the Talons for right now at a lower point level); BUT it also states that any unit that must start in reserve does not count against that 50% ( and niether dooes any of it's extra equipment). The troops aboard, of course, do.

 

So, I'm going to have to figure out how to make my three LSS and their scout squads (fifteen total) can be equal to three ten-man scout squads + a cheap-ass Captain that are swooping in the Ravens. In this effort, it think that the squads in the Ravens will be pretty basic, with as few upgrades as possible while keeping them lethal. The LSS squads, however, are going to be loaded down with whatever I can give them; a Telion counts-as, Cloaks, etc. Hopefully, this will serve a dual purpose of giving them some survivability/lethality, while also getting the reserve-to-deployed ratio to 50/50.

 

Hopefully.

 

I've had a lot of good luck with my MM shotgun scouts, I might have to give 'em a try on a larger scale. Maybe one of the Raven's teams, the ones with the Captain. That might prove to be viciously effective.

 

So, thoughts?

 

I really apprieciate the assist, by the way. I owe you one.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Maybe. . . don't take LSS squads?  Instead, a couple small scout-sniper teams could take their place.  Think of them as LRS detachments, watching for targets and then calling in the cavalry when the enemy turns up?

[Hyaenidae]

Well, if I have to put some advance on the ground, I will; but really, I'd like to keep all boots off the ground.

 

Blame it on too many years in the 101st, and even more as a Paratrooper, lol. Dirty, nasty legs.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah its unfortunate, 6th edition really changed the dynamics of scout armies.

maybe 3 x LSS to start on the board, or 3 x 5 snipers as spotters or something.

ten shotguns would be alot of fun, i might have to try that myself

[bystrom]

Since you need something on the table at the end of turn 1, you'll need either boots on the ground from the start or something that brings in units on turn 1.

 

You've already shot down drop pods, so there aren't a lot of options besides starting units on the table. An idea, besides having recon/forward elements such as sniper scouts is to have IG allies and saying they're the sorry sobs that your aircav is saving. The large blob mass of IG engage the enemy somewhere along their massive line. Once identified, the aircav goes in and clears it. Its a bit of a dual theme though.

[Hyaenidae]

Am I misinterpreting the 50/50 rules on reserves? does it have to be a model count, or is it as I interpreted it, by points? if that's the case, I've actually done a numbers crunch and found that it's possible, just gonna be a rough ride until turn 2 or 3.

 

Do the guys in the LSS have to be on the ground at the beginning of the game, or can they be in the LSS? I didn't think it mattered if they're feet were touching soil, only that they were on the board before turn one.

 

I spent 4 1/2 years with the 101st Airborne Division, with the Cav. As in, my Stetson and spurs are hanging from my wall as we speak, my sabre racked just below it, mumbling Fiddler's Green as I type this. My definition of Air Cav is about as puritan as can be, lol. My boys will ride into battle in their steel horses, or not at all.

 

I am desperatley avoiding IG allies. Everyone and their grandma uses IG allies, and I really don't want to.

 

I think I found a solid solution to my turn 1 firepower issue, thanks to the new Imperial Armour: Aeronautica.... The Land Speeder Tempest, now with a stamp of 40k approval. So, now the question is, has anyone tried these bad boys? any good in battle?

[bystrom]

the 50/50 rule means that up to half your units can be in reserve. As an example, if you had two units, one single model worth 50 points and one 100 model unit worth 1450 pts, then you could put 2*50%=1 unit in reserve. And no, all you need is at least one model on the table or else you autolose, so scouts in LSS are fine, as are just LSS or tempests, etc.

[Hyaenidae]

Alright, then I'm good. My math is straight, though this army will need to exist at a minimum starting around 1750 to be legal. 2000pt will be perferable though, for survival's sake.

 

Anybody try the LS Tempest since 6th ed? I'd love to hear some opinions of it.

[Hyaenidae]

I have created a army list, and have posted it in the Army List section. Any further opinions would be highly welcome.

 

Thanks for all the help, guys!

[Squirrelloid]

So, things that *are* clear about the reserve rules here, in case it hadn't been answered to your satisfaction:

 

(1) Flyers must start in reserves

(2) Units compelled into reserves do not count toward calculating the reserve limit, nor do they count to filling it.

(3) Units which embark on transports compelled into reserves *do count* as units for calculating the reserve limit, but *do not count* towards filling it (see the FAQ, specifically answered).

(4) You must have a unit on the table at the end of Turn 1 or you automatically lose.

(5) You make decisions about combat squadding before you calculate reserves, so if you combat squad the scout squads, each combat squad counts as a unit.

 

Edit: using your sample Storm Talon/Raven list:

 

Units that do not count at all towards reserves:

Stormraven x3

Storm Talon x3

 

Units that count towards calculating reserve limits:

3x 10-man Scout Squads (counts as more if combat squadded)

Captain

= 4 / 2 = can reserve 2 units

 

EXCEPT any you put on a stormraven doesn't count towards that limit of 2.