What if...

[Mark VII]

First off, please don't tear me apart for heresy but this idea has been in my head for so long I want to get others' opinions on it. I had an idea for a chapter a few years ago that was founded in the non-traditional sense. I know that the gene-seed of the traitor chapters are kept on Terra and that no one can get to them. I thought it would be interesting if when a new chapter was founded that a portion of their founding gene-seed came from the traitor seed. This could be because of some saboteur or maybe the Lords of Terra are even willing to take a chance, I'm not really sure. But I wanted to make a chapter that was founded this way and as they lost brothers in battle, their replacements would be made with the traitor-seed. They would then have to deal with problems involving inquisitorial surveillance, daemonic influences, and the possibility of the chapter tearing itself apart.

 

So what do you guys think? Is it too unbelievable/radical?

[Brother Tyler]

Some of the Chapters created in the 21st (Cursed) Founding may have had some degree of traitor gene-seed.

[Octavulg]

The problem with traitor gene-seed is rarely the seed. It's people knowing about it.

 

If your chapter has it, the wider Imperium really shouldn't know. If they do, then I think you would be looking at "burnt out root and branch" more than "tighter scrutiny".

 

It depends on what you want. If you want traitor gene-seed, I'd recommend doing a Cursed Founding chapter. Find some aspect of a traitor legion's geneseed (not of their tactics or what have you, but of their geneseed) that seems worth having, turn it up to 11, give it horrific consequences. You're done.

 

Personally, though, I kind of like the idea of a chapter being rebuilt with traitor/modified/whatever gene-seed and dealing with the consequences of not being able to trust their own geneseed. I'd do something like this:

 

Chapter is semi-wiped out. Their gene-seed stocks are horrifically depleted, and the Ad Mech sends them samples from Mars to restore their chapter. But the samples are (somehow) corrupted - some Marines turn out awesome, but most turn out to be mutants, monsters or madmen. Some of the chapter thinks this is the fault of the Ad Mech's carelessness. Some think they're the victims of an experiment, or of Inquisitorial malice. Some think it's a sign of the Emperor's judgment. Nobody knows for sure. You know, the usual array of lies, uncertainty and other such fun.

 

Anyway...what do you think you're after?

[Aegnor]

It is a pity in a sense that some of the founding legions can't be used to make successor chapters, as some of them have quite cool themes/characteristics.

 

I've got an idea to try and do up a chapter for each traitor legion, descended from loyalist geneseed, that end up evolving in virtual clones of those traitor legions (pre-Heresy).

[Mark VII]

@Octavulg: That's a pretty interesting idea with the whole sudden introduction of the seed into their ranks. I knew I was going with something along the lines of a cursed founding, but I'm not yet sure. Originally I had thought of this being an act of sabotage inside the system, a slow and ponderous scheme to add soldiers to the side of chaos. Whoever is giving the orders knows which marines have what seed, and is purposefully sending specific squads and and companies to die and be harvested for their seed. For my chapter I've thought of the traitor-seed being from Night Lords stock, and it manifests itself in marines being brutal, cold, and psychotic killers. Mutations would occur also, but not in some horrible pandemic. 

As for people knowing, I like to think that no one really knows. At some point the chapter would find out but then they're forced to figure out who's who and prepare for the ensuing in-fighting. I think that's the real curse, knowing that you're allies are tainted and not knowing what to do.

[Octavulg]

Night Lords come with evil prophetic dreams, too.

This sounds kind of awesome, actually. You'd need to execute it subtly, but it could be very neat. Like the Steel Ghosts, but from a different angle. Gene-seed laundering.

[Firepower]

The sabotage bit is a spin I haven't read before when it comes to traitor seed in loyalists. It has a fun and promising edge to it. I'm not sure if it would be better to write out at one point who the puppeteer is, or to leave it as an ominous mystery. I suppose that bit depends on the rest of the story, though. No sense writing the ending before the beginning

Perhaps some nefarious and super sneaky individual makes a swap of the good seed with the bad seed en route to the stricken Chapter. Or maybe the powers on high deliberately send them the wrong stuff. Or the intermediary between teh Ad Mech and the Chapter has devilish plans of his own. Or it could be a plot reaching from the source right into the Chapter itself, a string of individuals from supplier to apothecary for some devious end.

Ohhhh conspiracy is fun! *claps*

[Octavulg]

Ominous mystery. Ominous mysteries are almost always better, especially because then you can hint at various options.

[Firepower]

Ominous mystery. Ominous mysteries are almost always better, especially because then you can hint at various options.

 

I would argue for a balance.  Name suspects, but give no conclusive evidence.  It could be even better if the suspects are mutually exclusive- if it's guy A, it can't be guy B, unless guy C is calling the shots and deceiving guy A so he unwittingly tricks guy B...

 

Round and round it goes, whose to blame nobody knows! :teehee:

[Octavulg]

Hint at suspects. Don't name. Hinting gets you more suspicion than naming ever could.

[XKhalilX]

this thread sounds interesting. So the cursed founding, from what i am reading here and previously is that:

 

1. traitor geneseed was used

2. mixing of geneseed was used (i.e. ultramarines and dark angels spliced together)

3. using slightly unstable genseseed, causing the mutations

 

am i right?

 

ive always wanted to use thousand sons, mixed with iron hands since my Children of eternity is IH but has a lot of elements akin to thousand sons.

 

and how large was the cursed founding? i heard it was pretty large? one my friends heard it was the largest founding after the second founding? if that is true, thats hundreds of chapters.

 

i could see a world eater geneseed. WE are basically more savage white scars or space wolves in my opinion in terms of assault.

 

deathguard would be really fun to do. i think out of all the traitor geneseed deathguard and emperors children could be the easiest and most stable. thousand sons i would assume the geneseed would allow for more pysker mutation.

 

nightlords would be another fun one, very guerilla warfare style. but again, how much of these things are geneseed related vs. culture of the traitors homeworld?

 

I know ecritter did a chapter (white hands) that used loyalists from the world eaters to train his chapter. i dont believe they used world eater geneseed.

[Ecritter]

The White Hand Chapter .... not White Hands

I was gonna mention that, but waited to see if someone else brought them up.

And geneseed is 'unknown' to most, but it is Word Bearer.

Here's the breakdown

- Loyal Word Bearers imprisoned and taught the Order of the divinity of the Emperor

- Loyal Word Bearers died long ago

- Chapter raised from the Order, trained by UltraMarines

- Geneseed is Word Bearer, but only HLot and a few high ranking in the AdMech know

- Inquisitor is assigned to the chapter at all times

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Night Lords come with evil prophetic dreams, too.

This sounds kind of awesome, actually. You'd need to execute it subtly, but it could be very neat. Like the Steel Ghosts, but from a different angle. Gene-seed laundering.

It comes with all sorts of mutations doesn't it? Didn't Kurze have various weird psychic gifts and some marines got random ones from him? Or am I remembering wrong?

[Ecritter]

Other then his dreams, I don't see any mutations listed in the Lexicanium.

[Octavulg]

"The gene-seed of the Night Lords seems to be surprisingly pure. In fact, of all the Chaos Space Marine Legions, the Night Lords seem to bear the least evidence of mutation. This is perhaps due to a stable gene-seed stock, perhaps due to the fact they rarely associate themselves with a particular Chaos power for any length of time.

 

Although the Night Lords are distinguished by jet black eyes and pale skin, the real legacy of Night Haunter may be psychological. There is a tendency for paranoia and self-destructive behaviour in the Night Lords, and it is said that their sorcerers have a pronounced vulnerability to being wracked with painful seizures in which they experience visions, oblique or not, of the future."

 

So they're not too badly off.

[soddinnutter]

Do not state what they are.

 

Say they look like Raven Guard but their artificial organs are much more stable and they don't have the same problems recruiting. Also they suffer omens and prophetic dreams.

 

They could be very close with the Adeptus Arbiters. Believe that all internal strife within the Imperium is a direct result of people not heeding the Emperors Law. They see it as their job to bring that Law to places even the Arbiters won't go.

 

Their own records only go back so far before abruptly stopping. Other peoples records of them go back a little further and then stop in much the same abrupt manner.

 

They have a keen sense of Justice. They seldom/never take their helmets off in the presence of outsiders.

[Ecritter]

It's all about hints, let the reader think what they may .... just don't tell them outright.

 

EDIT

 

No one has mentioned, so I'll throw it up.  You could use Alpha Legion geneseed.  Rumor has it they never turned to Chaos ... but are really double agents for the Imperium.  That is the way they always operated afterall.

[Cactus]

I like this idea very much.

 

Here are a few thoughts for the melting pot:

 

A radical inquisitor could see some potential in using traitor gene-seed, either a 'fight fire with fire' attitude or simply because he thinks not using it is a waste of resources. He might be colluding with some or all of the High Lords, maybe he acts alone to pull some strings with the Adeptus Mechanicus, or he might sabotage the gene-seed in transit as others have suggested.

 

The World Eaters real flaw was the butcher's nails. Free from that influence their gene-seed could be seen as relatively safe.

[soddinnutter]

If they were of World Eaters stock you could put clues to it in the form of them having a fondness for close combat, masochistic rites and a gladiatorial pit where company champions compete on cereony days. Prefer axe to sword.

 

Beyond tht they could be solemn monks with a fondnessfor literature.

 

Eveyone assumes they are of Dorn's blood but can't quite explain why they can hibernate and spit venom.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Cool, it was a weird thought but I figured that if other mutations did exist they should be mentioned. Also, it's possible to do IAs where the traitor geneseed is stated outright, I know for a fact Ecritter and I have done it, although to be fair even Ecritter's chapter doesn't know about their flaw...

[Octavulg]

It's possible. It's almost never better than the alternative. Hinting covers a multiplicity of problems that dealing with it directly only accentuates.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I consider it thusly - are the Blood Angels greater for the knowing of their flaw? On one hand, you have secret madmen that no-one knows anything about, and it's so tragic how the noble Blood Angels will suddenly lose their composure before battle. Their doctrines must be weak, maybe if they spent less time being pretty boys... On the other hand, you have warriors straining every day of their lives to hold the madness within them at bay, and their days are lengthened so long that their Chapter Master is over a millennia old. Every single one of them has strength of resolve as a necessity. But do they act as though they are better for their trials, or even waste their days moaning about their weakness? No, each time they act it is with nobility, honor, and humility. They may be flawed, but they are true paragons.

 

Which version of the Blood Angels do you prefer? Yeah, sure, not knowing makes it all mysterious and the possibilities could be endless... on the other hand, you can really develop character with the knowledge that even dealing with their handicap they are strong, or maybe even weak. To me, Character > Mystery.

 

But that's just me.