Forgefiends or Maulerfiends?

[Tenebris]

As promised here is my observation on the "Fiends".

 

I have fielded a basic Forgefiend with Hades autocannons and it excelled in one game while it was destroyed in the first turn in another. Blame the bad rolling on my side for the second one but the game it actually fought it was awesome. I went against Space Wolves and Eldar, a Doubles mini tournament, and the Forgefiend made its points back. The high strength shots and the sheer volume of fire almost guarantees that something will die and in the game I speak my Forgy took down a Land Raider to 1 HP since I used Daemon Forge; it killed off a squad of Guardians, it killed a Vaul battery and forced many Pinning checks. While I do not entirely agree with its points cost, especially for BS 3, Forgy performed above expectations and it was a nice unit to keep a constant torrent of fire upon targets of opportunity. If you rely on the Forgefiend to win you battles you will be probably disappointed but it works in nice concert with my Blastmasters to keep my adversaries on their toes due to the sheer volume of fire that goes their way. While I managed only a turn of fire against the Jetbikes it took two down. Combine Forgy with some Obliterators and you will have a devastating shooting phase that would pause many an army in its tracks.

The Maulerfiend is golden, it truly is. In both games did what it was expected to do, namely kill tough transports, kill enemy tough units, be a nice fire magnet and threaten the enemy flank. For 125 points with Magma Cutters it performed exactly as intended. In the first game it drew fire so that my ally orks could advance, it made a wound on Calgar and ate fire for three turns. In the end it was locked in range to threaten an objective with Big Guns Never Tire and it helped us to get Linebreaker. It is fast, its is scary and it is tough. In the second game it protected again the Orks in their advance, it popped a Wave Serpent and kept a Farseer in melee for two turns. It was my MVP. 

 

Now the observations:

 

The true bonus of the Fiend is that they are big, spikey and scary and they tend to get a lot of attention from the enemy guns. Due to my experience with the Guard anything that wastes fire upon armor, in our case a nigh unkillable, 5++, Cannot Die, thing, and keeps my troops on low priority it is a good thing in my book and the invulnerable save is beyond great in most cases. 

 

I am sincere, the Fiends got me the games and while I was disappointed when the enemy Vindicare killed my Forgy, Mauly more than made up its points. But you have to have a clear intention for them, before you place them on the board. If you use them as distractions than work on the flanks with them, if you want them to shield your troops like the fast Daemonettes conga conga with them, and once you have them on the board decide already what they have to kill and use every trick in your book to do so with them. 

 

The Daemon Forge ability is great and in my case it glanced a Land Raider right until death with only one HP left, an easy picking for my allies Ork rokkit launchers. Like with its target you have to plan in advance when to use it, not keep it in there until the end of the game for when the time is right but you know that you have a reroll ability, plan when to use it and on what to use it. A reroll is IMO wasted on something trivial as Guardians or Tacticals but it did wonders on that Land Raider. I usually follow the rule to use Special Abilities around turns three or four when all the threats are in front of me and I can advocate when my boosted firepower would be used best.

 

The Maulerfiend on the other side is a literal Beast. It has all the tools to be nasty and to arrive where it is needed and get the job done. It is a fire and forget unit, decide its task and follow this task until the bitter end. A charging Maulerfiend is a dire prospect and while we know its true worth many are simply scared of him so play on that thing, Boast about your Fiends and plan to sacrifice them at moment's notice. They are killer fire magnets and they should be used as such. 

 

Now on synergy. The Fiends alone are a rather meager unit but when you support them with either ranged fire or melee power they are superb. The Forgefiend worked wonders in concert with my Blastmasters while the Maulerfiend benefitted much from my Daemonettes supporting it. Mauly took the charge, ate Overwatch fire and went after the heavies, while my Daemonettes, the actual killers went unnoticed until it was too late, especially when I begun to roll a ton of dice with rerolls and Rending...

 

From this two games alone I have learned that the Fiends are great if used properly but not ever expect them to win you battles. The Fiends are support and they need support but when you combine different ranged or melee attacks in an united fire front or melee assault you really come to see the synergy that the Fiends provide to our army. 

[minigun762]

Great write up!

 

I find myself constantly bouncing back and forth between Hadesfiends and Las Predators for ranged armor support.

 

What's your experience or thoughts on the comparison?

[Tenebris]

I did not have the chance to field a Perdator or truth be told any SM tank of any type or kind. The Lascannon Predator is a rock solid unit on paper but requires some tactics to make it useful. First it needs a solid bubble warp in the form of cultists and second it needs to be in position to threaten his prey of choice, enemy vehicles. The Hades Fiend is a much more versatile unit, it has a basic ++ save, a better chance to shrug off some wounds and a reroll in stock. Indeed you pay for all this with a ton of points but it is a bit more versatile and when you play tournaments I find versatility a much better card to have in my hand. So the discussion is between a dedicated vehicle killer and armor sniper or a machine gun platform on four legs. The first works great in armies that need a way to deal with enemy armor and lack assault units with meltas while the second is intended to work as a poor mans anti air defense, a solid gun platform and a moving shooting support. 

 

I would personally field the Las Predator in support to Berzerkers since those laser shots have the range to deal with enemy armor from turn one and you already have units that move toward the enemy and soak incoming fire while the Fiend is great to boost static armies like Blastmaster Noise Marines who have problems with MC or vehicles of any kind and benefit greatly for some solid strength 8 shots to boost their already strong shooting phase. In the end the Heavy Support choice is closely tied to the selection of your core troops and the modus operandi of your army so you have to be very careful. For me it is Obliterators and Maulerfiend in larger games, Forgefiend and Maulerfiend in games below 1500 points but should I pass the 1850 mark and move onto 2k points games both Fiends and Obliterators make it in my list. 

 

To recap, Predators are a Heavy Support choice for an army that has either need of range, for example to kill enemy rifleman dreadnoughts and Leman Russ tanks before the melee units close in or to support a mechanized army with moving fire support in the form of autocannons, where precision is better than volume of fire. The Forgefiends on the other side are boosters, their role is to increase the volume of fire in our shooting phase or to keep our half of the board safe from enemy deep strikers in their plasma configuration. The range is a telltale mark of a support weapon, devised to boost firepower, while the longer range of autocannon and lascannon Predators and the better BS imply killer units devised to perform a specific role in an army that would otherwise lack ways to deal with enemy armor or high toughness troops (Berzerkers).

 

Bear in mind that this is MY opinion and can very well be wrong due to my very limited experience with space marine vehicles. I was always the walker and land speeder type of player. 

[nurglez]

I love my hadesfiend, used alongside autocannon havocs they are my anti air and anti light vehicle fire power.

I often have more tempting targets then the forgefiend, letting him stay alive and remove hull points or blow up vehicles. Bs3 is annoying, but thems the breaks. Enough fire power to threaten infantry and any vehicle in the game, and a 42 inch threat range, plus a walker so can assault and tar pit enemies.

[minigun762]

The HFF's ability to double as decent AA might just be the tipping point for taking one.

 

Plus, I like the "kill it now!" Bonus of daemonforge.

[nurglez]

The main downside with daemonforge, is that you declare at the start of the shooting phase (or assault phase). This ability would be 10 times better if you could declare after you hit.

 

I've downed many a flyer with a hadesfiend, it is effectively snap firing 8 krak missiles at a flyer, and I am getting rather tempted to add a tzeentch herald and a minimum sized horror squad just to get divination for him (or any other unit that may need it, but mainly the fiend or autocannon havocs when trying to down flyers).

 

And lets not forget multi would characters who are t4 or lower, or pinging wounds off a high toughness MC. I managed to kill coteaz with my forgefiend once (previous unit had wiped out his guard, 1 failed save and splat). 175 points is a bit overpriced, but invulnerable saves on vehicles are awesome. 

[Jiron]

I have tryied Maulerfiend in my last battle (proxied him just to try) and definatelly decided to get one!!!! I have fought Imperial guard and boosted my Rhino Rush with him. The fear in the face of my opponent when two squads of angry khornates dismebarked beside the maulerfiend was intoxicating. He unfortunatelly failed all it's saves but even though he worked exactly as intended!!! I go for maulerfiend.

[Orwasitme]

Having used the Maulerfiend, I see the lure towards him. However, Hades Forgefiends also have a lure to me - especially since my list, while proving at least decent, having gone 2 for 2 wins (in a 1v1, almost boarding my opponent by turn 3, and winning on turn 1) and in a 3 player FFA, almost boarding BOTH opponents) - severely lacks Anti-Vehicle. Yeah, a Maulerfiend can walk up to a vehicle and destroy it the old fashioned way like my Tyranids, but against armies like my brothers Black Templar, which runs heavy long-range fire vehicles like Land Speeders, and his Land Raider with an assault squad and the BT's overpowered as hell chaplain. These are things that a Forgefiend would be more tuned for popping than a maulerfiend, and are immediate threats to me at all times. 

Moral of the story, this is a good little discussion, we'll see when I'm able to test out the Forgefiend in place (My next game is with my Tyranids, because I'm going heavy Telepethy psychic powers and controlling opponents units (roll of 3 = I shoot you with your unit, Roll of 6 = chance to make your unit hit itself in the face with melee while I say "Stop hitting yourself" like an older brother with his younger siblings fist in his hand, causing him to "punch himself"), Forcing dangerous leadership tests (Primaris: Leadership on 3D6 - 1 wound per failed point, no armor / cover saves, 1 - Take a leadership tests whenever you try to do something, 4 - You lose fearless, I gain fear, you take moral check automatically) and making my Adrenal Gland / Toxin Sac hormagaunts have a 2+ Cover save (5+ w/ Venomthrope, and 5 on Telepethy = Shrouded + Stealth & You strike them at WS1) So every roll is useful, except for rolling two 2s on the same guy - 2 sucks, it goes to Primaris, but I wanna test that list, THEN ima test the forgefiend.

I also kinda wanna test Telepethy with sorcerers / demon princes. 

[Karsarn Forsworn]

I must admit if I had to pick between the 2 id probably take a tri ecto hades fiend just because more anti terminator weapons are good in my book and they can instant kill most marine characters and paladins

[Orwasitme]

the problem with 3 Ectoplasma Cannons is 24'' range. They get popped before they even get there against my brothers Land Speeders, my cousin's Tao, and my friend's brother's Dark Eldar, and honestly probably my friends SM / SW. Just too many armies that can pop it before it becomes useful, the 36'' range on two Autocannons and a 24'' range for the extra Ecto for if something tries to come too close seems more worth it to me. 

 

Luckily, as a Tyranid player also, I'm used to BS3, so that doesn't affect me. 

[minigun762]

I think the Ectofiend looks good but I agree that the range difference from Hades is difficult.

[Brother Aiwass]

I'm pondering about bare forgefiends or the 2x hades 1x ecto (three of them) backing the advancing CSM units with heavy firepower.

 

Every detachment would look like:

 

-CSM 10 man, 2x plasmagun, CCW, rhino

-Chaos Dread with RAC/Plasma Cannon

-Forgefiend 2x Hades 1x Ecto

 

That's 1600ish. Opinions?

[Prot]

Great write up!

 

I find myself constantly bouncing back and forth between Hadesfiends and Las Predators for ranged armor support.

 

What's your experience or thoughts on the comparison?

 

This is a very good point. I have to confess when the most recent Chaos 'dex came out, I didn't like the idea of a *fiend on the tabletop. I almost exclusively used the Predator w/ twin las and Heavy bolter sponsons, or pure las all the way. The difference in cost between that and a vanilla Hadesfiend is about 55 pts.

 

That's a lot if you are taking multiples.

 

The truth is that yes the *fiends have 5++ and It Will Not Die (mine is more like: 'It refuses to live') but there's something special about that number 13 on the front AV. It's undeniably a difference, plus the range of the Las.

 

I just can't take one Fiend, it has to be multiples, or at least multiple mid-armour units. Also the Mauler really is in tough being a Heavy choice and not elite, or fast.

[nurglez]

I used my Hadesfiend today, and he did alright. Popping an icarus lascannon, and then downing a venom quite easily. instead of multiples I find a 4 autocannon havoc squad to be a great choice. As they compliment each other so well. Also remember that a forgefiend is still a walker, so can tarpit a squad for a turn or more, if needed.

 

I still need to try out a tri las predator. But being unable to move and fire at full effect puts me off, some games its hard for me to use a static fire support unit