Various list questions ^_^

[Marshal Wilhelm]

G'day everyone,

 

I have been thinking about Grey Knights and have a few questions about them.

 

I don't especially live the Inquisitorial aspect of the Codex, and so having them as TROOPS, etc. isn't really my cup of tea. Pretty much from a numbers stand point, in terms of painting, space, transport, etc.

 

What interests me is the Grey Knights, and the Terminator armour wearing kind in particular.

 

Are GKT reasonable as TROOPS?

Where do they rank amongst other TROOPS within C:GK and where amongst the other Dexes TROOPS. I would be thinking Tactical Marines, Grey Hunters, etc. Not in a 1v1 matchup, but in fulfilling the TROOPS role.

 

If I used MEq Allies [any Dex], who would do the following best.

I would have to take an HQ + TROOPS, then would like to bring some.... you guessed it!.... Termies!

 

The HQ could be cheap - Librarian/Runepriest or more expensive - Lysander, Vulkan, Dante, Mephiston.

The TROOPS could be a small 5 man Tactical squad, or a 10 man squad with transport, etc.

The ELITES would usually be Termies, but anything expensive and effective would be fine. Tactical Termies, Hammernators, Templar double CML Termies, Tactical Dreadnought Armoured Wolf Guard ~ T DAWGs :P with combi-weapons, Deathwing, but even Sternguard or Sanguinary Guard, for instance.

 

My idea is to have a small force, that would be easy to deal with because of low model count. I'm not looking for 1st place at Adepticon or what have you, but getting ROFLstomped by a stronger build isn't my want either.

 

Would this idea work?

 

Would Lysander's Bolter Drill work on GKT?

 

Thank you for your time :)

 

 

 

 

[Full_ork]

It depends on how lysander is worded, generally speaking allies of convience don't benefit from each other since they are considered enemies who can't harm each other. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm pretty sure Lysander's Bolter Drill was FAQed to be C:SM only.

 

But whether it is or isn't, it will never work for any GK unit.

 

As we're only AoC, and have no BB, and Lysander can't join any GK units.

 

As for GKT versus Strikes, the gap has closed slightly with the changes in 6th.  Generally (unless you have a specific/fluff reason) Strikes will outperform GKT.  They deliver more shooting, are more mobile, are more durable and have more attacks in CC (especially on the charge).

 

What GKT have over strikes is in the specifics.  They live when facing Heldrakes (And ML spam, but who does that anymore in 6th?).  And they are more durable in CC when facing Power Weapons.

 

If either of those two are concerns for you, and you're sure you won't face a lot of Plasma, then go for the GKT.

 

Oh, and if the WraithKnight isn't an EW, you might want to use a squad of GKT all armed with Daemonhammers and the Brotherhood Banner (for Runes) to go troll your Eldar opponent who now bought a £100+ Paperweight.

 

As long as you somehow deliver your GKT into CC with a Jump Unit...

[guillaume]

You are essentially looking at number 6 style of play with all GK troops: http://www.madison40k.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3424

 

You can see here that he is even capable of winning tournaments.

 

It seems at odd to want to ally with space marines codex if you enjoy the "grey knight" aspect of our codex. An inquisitor with Prescience and rad grenades makes for an incredibly cheap and effective HQ.

 

If you want small powerful terminator army, then look no further than Draigo and his troop palladins.

 

Draigo with 10 palladins (some psycannons), 1 stormraven, 10 GKStrike squad (w some pyscannons) and a dreadknight with heavy incinerator: BINGO, small powerful 1500 pts force. 23 models.

 

Similarly: Grey knight Grand master w rad grenades, 10 GKT (2 psy), 10 GK strike squad with razorback, 1 stormraven, 1 dreadknight with heavy incinerator and 1 dreadnought with 2 TL autocannon: 1500 pts: 25 models, and perfectly GK fitting since everyone has GK armour.

 

The problem I see is, you want cheap HQ, with cheap HQ you can take more models. More models means bigger army, less compact, harder to carry, more to paint.

 

Also, what game size do you play? Most people here play at 1750-1850 or 2000, but if you want small armies, you are looking at 1500pts no more. That is fine, but it depends where you play and against whom. The size of game you play will dictate your army size (obviously).

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You are essentially looking at number 6 style of play with all GK troops: http://www.madison40k.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3424

You can see here that he is even capable of winning tournaments.

It seems at odd to want to ally with space marines codex if you enjoy the "grey knight" aspect of our codex. An inquisitor with Prescience and rad grenades makes for an incredibly cheap and effective HQ.

If you want small powerful terminator army, then look no further than Draigo and his troop palladins.

Draigo with 10 palladins (some psycannons), 1 stormraven, 10 GKStrike squad (w some pyscannons) and a dreadknight with heavy incinerator: BINGO, small powerful 1500 pts force. 23 models.

Similarly: Grey knight Grand master w rad grenades, 10 GKT (2 psy), 10 GK strike squad with razorback, 1 stormraven, 1 dreadknight with heavy incinerator and 1 dreadnought with 2 TL autocannon: 1500 pts: 25 models, and perfectly GK fitting since everyone has GK armour.

The problem I see is, you want cheap HQ, with cheap HQ you can take more models. More models means bigger army, less compact, harder to carry, more to paint.

Also, what game size do you play? Most people here play at 1750-1850 or 2000, but if you want small armies, you are looking at 1500pts no more. That is fine, but it depends where you play and against whom. The size of game you play will dictate your army size (obviously).

My preference is Termies, then Marines, then Humans. I want as few as possible Humans, save perhaps an HQ or something like that. I am happy to have some Marines, well, more tolerate them But Termies is what I'd enjoy most.

I understand that C:GK has a dearth of Storm Shields, and I have always liked Hammernators. If I can get some Hammernators, but have to take a minimal MEq squad to squeeze that in via Allies, that is cool with me.

If T DAWGS with combi-plasma and/or combi-melta add something more, or just different from Hammernators, that is cool too.

Then you have the question of whose Hammernators are best as Allies;

SM for cheapness,

SM for Vulkan's master-crafted re-roll,

SM for Khan giving them hit & run,

BA for furious charge from Corbulo,

DA for a sneaky Plasma Cannon or CML.

DA for Deathwing Knights.

etc.

I could either get a cheap, say, Librarian, for more Hammernators, or Vulkan, for less Hammernators that hit harder, but either way, the model count is fairly low, imo.

[Aethernitas]

Following the discussion only peripherally I have to ask if the 'Grey Knight' trademark is it really worth for you to play a patchwork army of non-draigowing GK terminators if you could instead just go DA deathwing and have everything you seem to want from you TEQ army but more flexibel and without the need for ally shenanigans?

[jeffersonian000]

My all TDA Ghostwing does pretty well these days, although I've been swapping out my second GKT squad for Strikers and a Stormraven for anti-air over the past month.

 

At its core, I still take Mordrak with 4-5 Ghost Knights, a Librarian with a Teleport Homer and Staff, and a 10man GKT squad with Psycannons, Banner, NFH, NDH and Staff. To this I enjoy running a second 10man GKT squad, and/or a 10man GKIS squad, GKSS squad, and/or Stormraven as the mood takes me.

 

A very dynamic, 'in your face!' sort of army with flexibility and a lot of heavy armor ... at the cost of low model cost and smaller wound pools.

 

As to GKT as troops, the thing to remember is that our TDA troops are our 'assault' troops in that GKT are set up in our Dex with gear specifically for engaging in and surviving Close Combat. Its what they excel at while our PAGK are better suited for shooting. If you want to hold an objective that you just know will get assaulted, GKT are the better bet than PAGK. If you intend to get it stuck in with enemies in CC, GKT are the way to go. If its a mid-range battle where weight of fire is your friend, PAGK all the way!

 

SJ

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Following the discussion only peripherally I have to ask if the 'Grey Knight' trademark is it really worth for you to play a patchwork army of non-draigowing GK terminators if you could instead just go DA deathwing and have everything you seem to want from you TEQ army but more flexibel and without the need for ally shenanigans?

 

I am not a person who is opposed to Allies ^_^

 

I think that GK offer more flexible TEq squads than others do. Deathwing can't have squad members who can shoot and are decent in melee, imo. Outside of a CML Hammernator, DW doesn't offer a decent shooty + choppy alternative to a Storm Bolter + Nemesis weapon. The melee guys can't shoot, and the shooty guys are i1. I think the GK are far more flexible and as all squad members can shoot and all squad members can melee at ≥i4 it really provides a united front from the whole squad. This reduces the impact of the opponent sniping out particular guys, etc.

 

Then by bringing in Hammernators, I get a squad full of Termies with a 3++ that I can engage the opponent with. :D

[thade]

Space Wolves have extremely flexible terminators; easy to mix in power weapons and stormbolters there, as well as CMLs. Just some additional food for thought there.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Space Wolves have extremely flexible terminators; easy to mix in power weapons and stormbolters there, as well as CMLs. Just some additional food for thought there.

 

Do you feel TDAWGs *awhooo* do as well as GKT?

I am thinking i6 and stormbolters [psybolt ammo] and psycannons are better than combi-weapons and i4 power weapons?

 

Thoughts?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I think that GK offer more flexible TEq squads than others do. Deathwing can't have squad members who can shoot and are decent in melee, imo. Outside of a CML Hammernator, DW doesn't offer a decent shooty + choppy alternative to a Storm Bolter + Nemesis weapon.

 

'Normal' TDA loadout of SB + PF is essentially the same as a GKT with a NDH.  So if you discount that, then you're looking at using GKT because they can take Halberds.

 

Halberds rocked in 5th, their +2 was silly good.  Now that 6th has nerfed Furious Charge (no longer gives +1I), it's not as useful as before.  Especially as most Power Weapons are AP3 now, so you can go at the same time with everyone else, and still have your 2+ Save.

 

Most AP2 Melee Weapons are unwieldy.

 

 

Do you feel TDAWGs *awhooo* do as well as GKT?

 

7 points cheaper, and you'd take Power Axes on the WGT.  Alright, they're not 'cheaper' unless you're using 40 of them, as you need to pay 275 points for Logan.  But you get Logan, who is a beast.

 

As for Psycannons over CML, horses for courses really.

 

Don't discount DWT, Deep Strike a Squad with Belial (as long as you're not facing Coteaz, GK or Interceptor) and get Twin Linked.  Especially lulzy with two Heavy Flamers.

 

I'm tempted to use some DWK (haven't yet) as they are surprisingly cheap for SS armed TDA (or rather no more expensive than non Hammernator SS TDA...) and I want to smash someone with their S10/AP maces.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Is a Terminator Army a sound idea, or will it be very much a rock-scissors affair?

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless you go hardcore and use allies to counter what an Elite army lacks.

 

Like for example only, using Necron's primary for Warriors in Scythes, and having Draigo + 10 Pallies on board.

 

Nasty Combo.

[Aethernitas]

Is a Terminator Army a sound idea, or will it be very much a rock-scissors affair?

 

Depends on what you define as a "terminator army"...

 

If you plan to use exlusively terminator then it's probably not a good idea. Take a look at Draigowing lists - 6th edition has hit those hard. They are still kinda playable but I wouldn't consider a list like that 'good' and only barely competitive if at all.

[Gentlemanloser]

The recent tournament winner (can't remember which) was a 'Draigowing'.

 

Well, As an ally.

 

Necron's were primary.

 

But I'm not sure that's really a distinction any more...

[Aethernitas]

For me it is a HUGE distinction.

 

Apart from that you can't really call Newtons list a 'Draigowing' when there are no TEQ bodiey except for one squad :\

[Gentlemanloser]

How many TEQ bodies does a Draigowing usually have anyway? How many do you have to be using to qualify 'wing' status? Nothing but Paladin?

Why is it such a huge distinction? Does it matter if I'm running my GK list, but I choose to use Necrons as primary because I want a third Scythe, when all the GK units I want to use happily fit into the 'allied' FoC?

For example, would something like this be a 'Draigowing' list;

HQ: Draigo (275)

HQ: Coteaz (100)

Troop: Paladin x10, Psycannon x4, Brotherhood Banner, Apothecary (730)

Troop: Warrior Acolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition (62)

Troop: Warrior Acolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition (62)

Troop: Warrior Acolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition (62)

Troop: Warrior Acolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition (62)

Troop: Warrior Acolyte x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammunition (62)

Heavy: Dreadnought, TL Autocannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition (135)

Heavy: Dreadnought, TL Autocannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition (135)

Heavy: Dreadnought, TL Autocannon, TL Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition (135)

Total: 1,820

[Aethernitas]

I would say no. In context of the OPs topic it's not an all-TEQ list and therefore this question is not really an issue.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, it's a "small force, that would be easy to deal with because of low model count." and not a 72 Storm Bolter Acolyte spam army.

Edit: Coteaz is the no brainer choice for a Divination Psyker to add to your 10 Paladin deathstar.

And the Warriors are only there as a 12 point unlock for the Razors.

Edit, and as our FoC changes are 'old skool' and not limited to Primary detahcments, the OP could choose to use the GK as 'allies' purely so as to not have to take a second mandatory Troop choice form Codex GK.

Leave your GK force as Draigo + Paladin. No need for Strikes/Henchmen.

[thade]

Yes, a "Wing" is extreme majority (preferably all) TDA. Deathwing is the namesame, Loganwing the first lasting spinoff...both named for their ability to take a metric ton of terminators. Naturally terms get watered down if we let them; let's not let them, haha.

 

If you can't tell the distinction between Necrons and Grey Knights any longer, it may be time to paint your models. (I jest.) Strictly speaking, theme and appearance aside, I'm not sure what the difference is between primaris and secundus detachments. They're both standalone org charts under your control.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I'm not sure what the difference is between primaris and secundus detachments. They're both standalone org charts under your control.

 

Exactly. ;)

 

With the artificial restriction that your Warlord must come from your Primary detachment.  That's it really.

 

If you want to get all fluffy, isn't it *more* fluffy for the GKs to be the smaller force when used with another race? ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I guess I would be thinking 9/10 squads would be Termies, be they GK or from another Dex.

I'm not unreal about this, and as I'd have to take a squad of, say, Tacticals to run Hammernators & Vulkan/Shrike/Lysander/Khan, etc. I would be fine with that addition of MEq.

 

But running Strikes because they are a smidgen better than GKT, wouldn't really be what I was hoping for ^_^

 

Termies, NDK, and even cool 'big' things like Thunderwolves. Or Mephiston :P

[Aethernitas]

So what exactly are we still discussing? You got a good amount of suggestions for TEQ armies that are at least kinda competitive but as you seem to stick with your GKTEQ army + cool allies idea anyway (which is totally cool on a fluff level) it boils down to a choice of personal taste.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So what exactly are we still discussing? You got a good amount of suggestions for TEQ armies that are at least kinda competitive but as you seem to stick with your GKTEQ army + cool allies idea anyway (which is totally cool on a fluff level) it boils down to a choice of personal taste.

 

We are still discussing if my idea, whilst fun for me, is actually a flop [or not] on table.

Your response seems to indicate that it is [somewhat] a flop.

 

I just needed it spelt out for me :D

[Justicar Enethys]

Personally I love TDA armies or 'wings's. GKT based forces are what I regularly field. Not Paladins, Terminators. Some of my more common lists feature 20/25 with them although as that will indicate in itself, I do tend to play large point games. My friends and I play 2,500 games and will sometimes drop to 2,00 for smaller games lol.

 

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're asking MW. Can all Terminator lists work? Sure. They aren't going to beat everyone, every time, but they can certainly hold their own. Getting roflstomped isn't something I've ever had happen to me using TDA based lists. In the army list section you may find a few recent threads by myself about TDA based lists and 'Big and Stompy' based lists. Just my cuppa tea.

 

Regarding allying in other units of Terminators - I wouldn't fancy it personally as ours are very good all rounders and it avoids having the ally HQ/Troop tax - but if you really wanted to for a specific reason - such as a love for DA Knights - then go for it. Just keep the HQ/Troop expenditure minimal.

 

You'll not be winning hardcore tournaments with them - but I very much doubt you'll have a game where your opponent doesn't have to work damned hard to beat you down. The local GW Heldrake addicts despise my TDA with a passion.