Are Sanguinary Priests overpriced?

[Demoulius]

Tbh if your ONLY looking at it as a 5+ save then indeed it isent much.

Look at it like this:

Its a 5+ save that you get after failed armour saves (that dont cause ID) AND against things that might negate your armour altogether. Plasma, that baleflamer thingy from chaos, flamestorm canon, powerswords etc etc. Without a priest a wound from that is fatal. Period. With one you at least got a chance to survive and I can tell you that after using them for a LOOOOOONNNNNG time. My marines survive ALOT more then people give them credit for :)

Theres something with lucky dice rolls involved offcourse but ive had ASM squads shrug off wounds coming from an entire army shooting at them, simply by the merit that a 90 point model (SP, JP, PS) was standing within 6 inches of their unit

And offcourse there are times when gretchin shoot down marines! Tbh it gives your marines a chance to survive power weapons, plasma and suchlike. If you take into consideration with the pricing its not half bad :)

BUT, you must place the priest in such a manner that he can cover more units. If hes only covering 1 unit its generally not worth it (unless that single unit is a bikers/terminator unit. Those just make people bonkers with their resiliance! )

[knife&fork]

Don't take the wounds on the SP?  That 33% adds up over time.

 

I was referring to the model taking the FnP roll.

 

Nobody is saying that FnP is bad to have, just that it isn't wort the points and elite slot. The points you spend on a priest is usually better spent towards more models and units unless you are buffing some very high value targets.  

[AlphaErix]

I personally still like the priests with jump packs, only because of that bubble and it's ability to keep up with my ASM.  I do not recommend using more than 1 elite slot for priests though.  Lately I've been only using Brother Corbulo (because he in himself is ridiculous and he still provides the 5+ bubble) along with 2 priests with jump packs.  The rest of the elite slots are usually for hammer / shield termies and a furioso variant.  10 termies with Corbulo becomes such a target that the rest of your army doesn't often need the FnP then again, that's been my experience with them.

[Leonaides]

Priests can be priceless if you use them right, and they are a designed part of your list. If your list simply sprinkles a couple of priests in without a plan, then they arent worth it. Priests turn scouts in cover into Terminators for far less cost, or they make your tactical squads adn devastators a far harder target to break which means your opponent wither has to accept not killing the heavy weapons or scoring objective holders and trying to stop your assault units, or allowing your assault units to hit home without shooting at them.

[Boomkapow]

They are not overpriced because its a bubble, not a squad buff. And the person with 3 stormravens, 3 sang and a bunch of ASM, take fewer priests and keep your squads closer. Save 50 points to use on scout sniper squads against them riptides and thank god your buddy doesn't use farsight bombs (unless he does).

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Yes, sanguinary priests are definitely overpriced, the upgrades in particular. What's worse is that they take up an elite slot. 

 

IMHO the priests are one of the worst things in the codex.

Not because they suck that much, it's because they seem good at first! They trick players into spending way too many points on suboptimal units and then playing them in a less flexible manner to maximize the buff.

 

We would see a lot a more successful BA players if people stopped thinking of things like priests and assault squads as a 'given'. It's understandable since they are one of the defining traits of BA, but they are also holding the community back in terms of results.

Quite the bold statement! When I first read through, I was thinking in terms of rebuttle. Then I came to realize the crux of what K&F is talking about.

 

Priests seem to be one of 'the reasons' to play BA. However, I myself was a very big proponent of the SP until I started playing without one. The freedom of maneuver and the ability to play MSU (not necessarily Mech-MSU either) turned out to be quite revealing!

 

SangPriests are no longer 'easy to use' and honestly require significant thought if someone means to include them into an Army List.

 

For example, I personally cannot think of a way to efficiently employ the 50pt Naked SP. He either needs a PW or JP (or commonly both) which means he rapidly approaches 2x MMAB in cost. Often the 2x MMAB will affect a game far more, and although an extra WS5 PAxe has helped me out of more than one sticky situation, I can admit that TEQ aren't too commonly seen in competitive listing except as spoilers.

 

I still think that a SP is usable, but only very specific types of lists can manage to make the most of them and even then a player must acknowledge the built-in handicaps involved with using one.

 

Commonly, I bring one to bolster the ASM accompanying Mephiston (and thereby usually bolstering my main-effort). Even 2 passed Mephiston-FnPs means the SP made his points back (50pts per wound for Meph). However, using SP to make ASM better is using one subpar unit to make another subpar unit better than they are alone. Throw enough points into any combo and it'll work, although it doesn't make it efficient.

 

As for the 'ol ASM... well they go hand in hand with the SP discussion. You cannot talk about SP viability without talking about ASM viability because DC don't need one, Mech-MSU don't need one, Dreads/Ravens/Baals/Preds/etc AV certainly don't need one..... So basically ASM and MMABs are the only BA choices that really draw benefit from SPs.

 

The margin of efficiency is absolutely razor-thin but it does exist IMO. In any case, I feel that a well-rounded BA player should know both how to play with a SP and how to play without a SP, and should also learn the difference between a list that could use one (minority) and the lists which are stronger without one (large majority).

[Memento Of Prospero]

I think we have something interesting here. 

 

Most who are against will mention that it limits ASM movements, and that ASM are subpar to begin with. but those aren't the only units to benefit from a priest. I can agree with this.

 

I always field either Corbulo or a priest lately, and to great effect. In my pod play list, I've shifted out the Death company in favour of a unit of sternguard/combi flamers. Couple with 2-3 units of poding or deepstriking ASM, the priest becomes more more valuable. Feel no pain for sternguard helps you keep those 30 point models alive much longer and if you tendem them with another unit, your priest will just feel like a saviour.

 

Pod Play favours priests because you will use them in a concentrate manner, as opposed jump infantry who's big asset is the ability to spread quickly. Using sternguard instead of DC also makes the FnP more appealing. 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I always field either Corbulo or a priest lately, and to great effect.

I would contend that Standard Priests versus Corbulo are an Apples to Oranges discussion. Corbulo is simply amazing for what he does and is one of the few items within the BA codex that actually got a net-buff by 6th Ed rules.

 

Meaning to say that a Standard SP is not even HALF as effective as Corbulo at "what they do" even though they're only half the points. Besides the fact that Corbulo is the only Infantry I can think of that even stands half a chance of surviving a Farsight-bomb (and even then, he'll probably sell his life protecting his Unit from it)

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

I always field either Corbulo or a priest lately, and to great effect.

I would contend that Standard Priests versus Corbulo are an Apples to Oranges discussion. Corbulo is simply amazing for what he does and is one of the few items within the BA codex that actually got a net-buff by 6th Ed rules.

 

Meaning to say that a Standard SP is not even HALF as effective as Corbulo at "what they do" even though they're only half the points.

 

They are ultimately exchangeable for me. While corbulo is nice, you can negate his ability to tank via screening and focus firing. Sometimes I would rather have an extra 50 points to spend on deathwind launchers.

[I am Legion]

Ok.....

Let's remember something, we're using an old codex that is now obsolite.  Not saying that we can't have fun, or even win with our army, but with the release of the new edition, it looks like GW left all the old codexs reeling in the dust to some degree.  Which is fine, seeing the rate that the new codexs are reinforcing the game like never before. 

Now, my main opponents are Necrons, and Grey Knights *sigh*...... So my main list of "put as many bodies on the table" is no longer that viable with our overall nerf.  Thus, I've been leaning towards the other aspect of the Blood Angel list.  Vehicles.  in my opinion, we have a vastly superior vehicle fleet.  This includes Baal Preds, Vindicators, Storm Ravens and recently, Drop Pod Dreadnoughts to land on a couple squads of heavy weapons.  This way I eleviate a good 75-85% of the enemies long range firepower, turn one.  Leaving my army to pick out units as I see fit without much reprucusion, up until they can bring their melta weapons in range.  But by then I'm dropping alot of firepower from the Storm Ravens into those units.

Sooooooooo, in this sort of list the Priest is completely useless. Now, you cannot compare points cost within the army in terms of what the unit does.  Someone mentioned that the Priest comes out to be the same points cost as 2 MM A.Bikes if wearing a JP, and a PW.  Both units do something wholly different for you.  But the priest isn't bad in it's own right.  Sure I'd love to pay less points for it, but If I do play a game where I'm using 3-4 Units of assault marines with SG, and telelporting terminators, then those two priests at a staggering 150 points with the JPs are a huge gamechanger, making their points back in a single turn almost.  I love looking at my opponent when my line of Marines hits his line.  Why?  Because I only lost 5 marines getting up into his face, at which point I shoot and charge and very messily begin to get my points back.  And when he runs, I JP after him, taking a priest if necessary if I can ensure that I will get the charge to get the Furious Charge off.  Yeah, suddenly those priests have made their points back and I'm smiling.

It all boils down to maximsing the effect of a supporting unit.  Be it the Librarian, the priest, or the Droppodded Furiosos.

I would still love to see either the price of the priest go down by 10 and keep the JP price the same, or just have the JPs go down to 15 points.  BAs are such an expensive army to field, but it's kinda like the old days, where you needed to be a good commander to win with a smaller army.  Not like the grey knights or space barkers....

[knife&fork]

Pod Play favours priests because you will use them in a concentrate manner, as opposed jump infantry who's big asset is the ability to spread quickly. Using sternguard instead of DC also makes the FnP more appealing. 

 

Strongly disagree with the first part. There's nothing that inherently favors priest in a pod list. The extremely limited mobility you have after touching down often means having to spread out or have nothing in range. 

 

Ok.....

 

Let's remember something, we're using an old codex that is now obsolite.  Not saying that we can't have fun, or even win with our army, but with the release of the new edition, it looks like GW left all the old codexs reeling in the dust to some degree.  

 

Not really. 6th ed codexes have been fairly consistent and thankfully a lot more balanced towards each other. If anything it's the old 5th ed power books that still rules the day.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Spreading everything out guarantees your scoring units will get picked off. You will make clusters of pods (2-3) to make sure your units will be able to support one another. You don't just do 1 massive clump either.

 

I always touchdown with Sternguard and a unit of ASM, sometimes two, and then fan out towards objectives. you can cover 18 inches of board with these units and benefit from the priest/Corbulo. Once the initial retialiation is soaked, you move out. 

[knife&fork]

Spreading everything out guarantees your scoring units will get picked off. You will make clusters of pods (2-3) to make sure your units will be able to support one another. You don't just do 1 massive clump either.

 

I always touchdown with Sternguard and a unit of ASM, sometimes two, and then fan out towards objectives. you can cover 18 inches of board with these units and benefit from the priest/Corbulo. Once the initial retialiation is soaked, you move out. 

 

No, there isn't one true way to use pods. It will vary depending on your own force comp, the enemy, the board and the mission. If you know that a certain tactic will work in your specific meta that's one thing, but in general terms it's not true at all.   

 

Just to be clear I'm not advocating an even spread across the board just for the sake of coverage. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Then why did you disagree with my statement, just to come back and say well, it depends. That's not very consistent line of thought.

 

And you don't clump everything is a mess just for the sake of clumping. you will have no choice but to support your units with other units in proximity.

[knife&fork]

Then why did you disagree with my statement, just to come back and say well, it depends. That's not very consistent line of thought.

 

And you don't clump everything is a mess just for the sake of clumping. you will have no choice but to support your units with other units in proximity.

 

It's this kind of statement I disagree with. Exactly the kind of reasoning that we discussed earlier in the thread, how people limit themselves trying to maximize the priests. Doesn't matter if it's not making full use of jumper mobility, the speed of our vehicles or not taking full advantage of the reactive nature of a pod list.

 

'Support' doesn't necessarily equal proximity, specially not the extremely close one you'll need to be within a priest bubble.

[TheHarrower]

Squirrelloid, on 29 May 2013 - 19:53, said:

FnP actually got better, because while its now only 5+, it now applies to stuff which denies an armor save. In 5th, power weapons and plasma weapons didn't allow FnP saves. (Looking back, in 4th plasma did but power weapons didn't, and I recall that being true in 3rd as well, so FnP applies to more now than it ever did in the past).

Not meaning to call you out Squirrelloid, but I disagree with this on every level. Not sure how the meta is where you play, but shooting rules 6th edition in my area. 9/10 the 5+ just isn't worth it. Not to mention the loss of +1 initiative in assault is a huge blow to their effectiveness. It gives you saves against certain things you normally wouldn't have in the past (i.e. power weapons) which is nice, but it's shooting where most of the wounds are coming from nowadays. In a world where Dark Angels get Librarians with 2 wounds and Prescience for 65 points, people are crazy if they think Sanguinary Priests are worth it and a must include. I'd gladly keep the cost as is just give them 2 wounds each...

 

I'm not saying that I don't use Sanguinary Priests. Corbulo is the man and soaks up so many wounds it's insane making him an auto include for me now. I'll also use a vanilla Priest out of a Land Raider because I can keep his costs down (plus you get a 35 point discount of the Land Raider) and generally get him where he needs to go while safely buffing units within 6" and giving me a chance if my Librarian suffers a Perils of the Warp. Like knife&fork, I see a lot of bad advice which mostly amounts to taking massed jumpers with Priests. I just don't know how people that run that configuration expect to win games. Between Grey Knights, Tau, Necrons, and now Eldar, the amount of fire those armies put out means that extra 5+ just means you get to roll saves a little longer which is a futile gesture. By the time you close in, all your "strength" in assault is a joke because you are down so many models.

 

I know a lot of people play primarily jumpers and have some success, but I just don't see it. I tried for 3 months when 6th first came out and I lost almost every game until I started bringing more mech. IMO, Blood Angels are in a weird place now because of being an overcosted Codex we can't create a list that effectively deals with everything 6th edition has to bear (i.e. flyers) without sacrificing in some other area. If you want to read a ton of opinions on what Blood Angels should be taking, check out this thread on Warseer.

[I am Legion]

On my phone and cant figure out how to quote.

K&F- that's what i meant. The new codexs are all nicely in line with eachother, however our prices are still in line with the old codexs.

 

I agree with the harrower. Blood angels seriously had to switch to a mechanized style just to keep up. CC isn't bad or by no means dead but i see far too many units carrying enough firepower with low AP that it makes marines just as easy to kill as a lowly guardsman. In that case, priests have become more invaluable than ever, however with blood angels, we have to sacrifice some aspect of troop type units for vehicles because we need vehicle support, which means that we simply dont need as much infantry which means that the priests do cost a bit much for what they do. This I'm sure will all be fixes when we get our new codex.

[Demoulius]

At the end of the day it does depends on your local meta I guess. I face up against gunlines (or lists with big gunline elements) often and for me they work. For others they might not as it also depends on your opponent. When your getting blasted with battlecannons from an IG gunline for example youll find the priests suddenly isent worth squat luckily ive only faced up against that once....

But, theres a difference between flooding your lists with priests (which I dont think anyone is advocating here) or using units together for synergy. I typically use 2x10ASM with 1 priest in 1 squad and my warlord (jumpy liby) in the other. I get faced up with so many things id rather not charge, simply because I cant kill them fast enough or because id lose to many models; that I simply dont. OR I combi charge it/them with both squads. Having 2 assault squads bashing down on a unit is murder, and while a large show of force both in models and points so far its killed pretty much everything that they faced. I use the rest of my list (about 2/3 of the rest of my army) to outmaneuver and shoot down the rest of my opponents list. Sometimes I soften up the target that I want to charge first and then shoot down the rest.

Point that im making is that I sincerely doubt people are JUST taking priests and ASM. You gotta keep an eye on what else is in the list. Often 1 or 2 assault squads with a single priest can create a lot more havoc then people give them credit for, and my priest generally has no trouble earning back his points. He grants them FC and the FNP. He earns his points back by the models he saves by FnP alone. Since I hardly ever get a 1 on my red thirst roll hes especially always worth it :) that first round hitting on S5 can mean alot! I also keep 1 priest with an objective holding tactical squad and theyre a horror for my opponent to flush out. With a cover save and FnP against a lot of shooting they generally stay put where I want them

Priests require thought and need to be placed sparingly... If you got enough to place with every unit theyre to much of a point sink. And it limits your movement (need to stay within 6 inches of the priest with at least 1 model) but so long as both "elements" are heading in the same direction then theres no harm done.

[SamaNagol]

As soon as 6th edition dropped I said it. And I have been banging on about it ever since....

 

Two things got the big shaft in the BA codex with this new edition.

 

Assault Marines and Priests.

 

They are both over costed and too easy to deal with now. There is a reason I have preaching the gospel of Grey Hunters to any who will hear.

 

Corbulo is the exception because he does a similar task but in a totally different way. He aids the survivability of his unit, but not through buffing them directly, through being a godlike Tank. It shows how bad the Red Grail has become by the fact he usually gets put in with Death Company to tank.... a unit who already have both FnP and FC.

 

Me and Mort have been going back and forth for a while in the Null Deploy thread in the Army List sub-forum. Survivability from the BA now comes in the form of AV13 vehicle threats which need to be deal with immediately. Be it Baals or Furiosos. Unfortunately in a game where weight of fire is king, a 5+ FnP just isn't good enough. And the lack of initiative bonus for FC is just another kick in the teeth.

[TheHarrower]

As soon as 6th edition dropped I said it. And I have been banging on about it ever since....

 

 

I agree that Assault Marines aren't worth it next to say Grey Hunters, but I'm not sure we'll see much of a change. I think it's more of an issue with Grey Hunters being under costed than anything else. Assault Marines in the Dark Angels Codex are 17 points per model and that's only a 1 point difference. Not sure how you make our Assault Marines better, but I expect we'll be 17 points per model in our next Codex.

[teblin]

Templars still pay 22 points per Assault Marine, so compared to that BA get off quite lightly.

[Ushtarador]

Also, assault marines are by far the worst unit in the entire DA codex, so that might not be a fair comparison :P

[Rutzah]

As soon as 6th edition dropped I said it. And I have been banging on about it ever since....

 

Two things got the big shaft in the BA codex with this new edition.

 

Assault Marines and Priests.

 

They are both over costed and too easy to deal with now. There is a reason I have preaching the gospel of Grey Hunters to any who will hear.

 

I aggree that priests are a bit overcosted and nerfed due to the FC nerf, but i still think they are pretty good for some kind of lists. Personally i like better the new FnP, but i can understand why people dont take them so frequently nowadays, unless the list demands them.

 

I cant see why ASM are worse in this edition than they were in 5th though. What has really changed for them? Just because priests are not an auto-include anymore (meaning they wont be buffing the ASM) it doesnt mean that they are bad. They can still work without a priest. They are fast, mobile, scoring units and pretty good at being aggresive.

 

I also dont get the comparison between them and Grey Hunters. GH are AWESOME yeah, cheap as hell with CC weapons AND bolters AND counter-charge but i believe that they dont have the same role. To me, ASM are destined for CC -and shooting their meltas- while GH have a more defensive role, shooting their bolters and securing the area, waiting for the fools to try and charge them. I

 

Not to mention that they need a transport which makes them like 20pts cheaper than the ASM (same size and same upgrades). I dont think ASM are overpriced. They could cost a bit less but they are certainly not overpriced. 190pts for 10 scoring models with jump packs is not too much. 

[knife&fork]

I cant see why ASM are worse in this edition than they were in 5th though. What has really changed for them? 

 

Are you serious?

 

OK, here goes: Overwatch, FC nerf, cover nerf, random charge distance, LoS for charges, hull point system, multi assault nerf, DoA/reserves nerf, heldrakes, more plasma, MCs more common, flyers, wound allocation and casualty removal, challenges, snap shots, rapid fire rule changes, power weapon profiles.  

 

Pretty sure I've forgotten a thing or two.

 

Things that have improved: Hammer or wrath, ease of hiting vehicles, grenades usable on MCs and walkers, nightfight in more than 50% of missions. 

 

Changes to FnP could go either way for ASM depending on the meta.

[I am Legion]

Lol K&F :p