Mid Range support Dreads - Weapons?

[Montuhotep]

So, I have in the planning stages a Dreadnought or indeed a Venerable Dreadnought for medium to close range fire support to a Terminator Gunsquad or indeed anyone.

 

 My question is this:

 

 Is there much point to the twin heavy bolter or does the assault cannon still hold supreme?

 

I'm also pondering keeping the DCCW or swapping it out for a Missile Launcher.

 

 Opinions?

[DarkGuard]

For a mid range Dread, I'd stick with either the assault cannon and DCCW Dread, or the assault cannon and twin-linked autocannon Dread. The first is OK at shooting and combat, but not great at both. The second is great at shooting, as it can shoot a bit from range as it closes into range of its assault cannon. I believe Idaho favours such a Dread in his lists.

[knife&fork]

TL-HF with missile or AC arm looks interesting to me. 

[Koremu]

The AC is 5 points more expensive. However, for those 5 points you get a higher RoF, higher damage capability and Rending. The Heavy Bolters are more accurate, and have more range.

 

I think the Higher RoF counteracts the accuracy; a TLHB shot is 88% likely to hit on a regular dread, the AC 66%, for a nearly even spread of hit results - the TLHB is more reliable, the AC more reliant on flair - and the range is irrelevant for your purposes.

 

On the Venerable Dread the odds tip even more into the favour of the Assault Cannon; TLHB 97% accurate per shot, AC 84%

 

There is one factor which does favour the TLHB, and that's Overwatch. The TLHB has about a 30% chance of landing each shot, the AC only 16%. That should be heavily factored into your thinking, given the close support role you are intending to use .

 

As for a secondary weapon, if you are going to be that close to the enemy I'd keep the DCCW and possibly upgrade to a Heavy Flamer - both for short range combat and for Overwatch purposes. If you are going to swap out, the TLAuC has the superior Overwatch capability.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd stay away from Veneradble Dreadnoughts; they're not worth their price tag anymore thanks to the dawn of Hull Points.  Now, if this Dread is intended to operate in support of a specific unit, I'd tailor the armament to the needs of the squad being supported.

 

For example, said "Terminator Gunsquad," by which I assume you mean Tactical Terminators with powerfists and stormbolters.  Their standard weapons give them an anti-infatry shooting role, while their combat weapons are good against all targets.  So really it comes down to what is the special weapon (if any) you've given them?  Heavy flamer?  You're dedicating them to killing infantry.  CML?  You've given them an alternate anti-vehicle/MC role.  Assault cannon?  A little of both.

 

If you're rocking the heavy flamer on your Termies, you now lack any ranged anti-tank weapons, so that's the gap you need to fill.  A multi-melta or twin-las Dread provides solid anti-armor capability that allows you kill incoming targets like Land Raiders, Maulerfiends, or APCs carrying plasma squads (ideally) before they can close with and apply damage to your Termies.  I'd say these are also good weapons to pick if you've got an assault cannon on the Termies, since the assault cannon isn't a dedicated anti-tank gun; it can do the job, but if you don't roll well for Rending against that AV or MC target, then you're hosed.

 

The CML provides excellent anti-tank, anti-MC, and anti-infantry firepower; a true all-rounder.  For this, I'd go with an assault cannon on your Dreadnought.  It can likewise successfully engage all three types of targets and works decently as a secondary weapon in support of the CML.

 

Weapons I would avoid are the plasma cannon (Gets Hot! affects vehicles), heavy bolters (assault cannon is superior), and the secondary ranged weapons (since you're supporting a unit designed to advance and engage at close-range, you want the capacity to deal significant damage in close combat).  I'd also always, always, always take the heavy flamer on the CCW, unless you absolutely cannot spare the points for it.  A single stormbolter is so ridiculous a weapon that it's barely worth considering.

[Robert2004]

Very nice suggestions, man you guys know your tactics on this forum! Think I might switch out my standard storm bolter on my close combat weapon now since it's been labeled as 'so ridiculous its barely worth considering' not used much heavy flamers but coming across a lot of tau at the min so couldn't hurt to toast a few! =] 

[WarriorFish]

Good posts in here, I agree that the Assault Cannon generally pips other mid-range weaponry and the Heavy Flamer on the DCCW is mandatory. I've lost count of the number of times a Dreadnought has annihilated entire units with it, makes them a versatile support unit which is what Dreads are great at :)

 

The 6th Edition fate of Venerable Dreadnoughts still makes me very sad :(

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Very nice suggestions, man you guys know your tactics on this forum! Think I might switch out my standard storm bolter on my close combat weapon now since it's been labeled as 'so ridiculous its barely worth considering' not used much heavy flamers but coming across a lot of tau at the min so couldn't hurt to toast a few! =] 

 

Stormbolters are like regular bolters; massed, they're decent.  Alone, they're poop.  Odds on dice are that two S4 shots are not going to do an appreciable amount of damage.  Do you rely on a Rhino's stormbolters to put the hurt on the enemy?  On the flip side, the heavy flamer is one of the most sought-after weapons in the Marine arsenal, and sees common use on Land Speeders and in drop podding Sternguard squads.  It's high enough strength to threaten Marines and its AP value is low enough that it will roast Guard and most xenos without missing a beat.  Plus, it gives you a reliable Overwatch weapon.

[Captain Idaho]

I got to say, put me in camp of assault cannon and autocannon Dreads. Wity 6th edition being so infantry based the weapkns are quite ferocious. If you're planning on assaulting then a support Dread can benefit from heavy flamer and assault cannon.

 

My only concern is the costs are too much and they haven't been fixed in Codex DA so won't anytime soon. A Dread is about 15pts too expensive in my eyes, with Venerable Dreads being about 60pts too expensive.

 

A Dread is still serviceable but Marines are starting to struggle unless built a certain way. It's why I haven't used mine for a while.

[DerekLee688]

For "mid range" weapons, I'd select assault cannon or plasma cannon for one arm, and pair it with the ML if price isn't too important.

It should handle most things on the ground, but the anit-air and general accuracy is lacking.

 

DCCW+HF isn't mid range but is very dangerous.

[Koremu]

Can't Overwatch with a Plasma Cannon, which makes it sub-optimal for getting too close to the enemy.

 

 

In fact, I'm not sure when i would use a Plasma Cannon Dreadnought. Now "Gets Hot!" is a 50% chance to lose a Hull Point, i'm not sure it's worth it, even for an AP2 Blast.

[DerekLee688]

Can't Overwatch with a Plasma Cannon, which makes it sub-optimal for getting too close to the enemy.

 

 

In fact, I'm not sure when i would use a Plasma Cannon Dreadnought. Now "Gets Hot!" is a 50% chance to lose a Hull Point, i'm not sure it's worth it, even for an AP2 Blast.

 

Without close combat weapons, I'd imagine there is a squad between the dread and the enemy. Get's Hot is a compromise for having the best anti-deep strike/ anti-terminator weapon on a "mobile" platform. I'd like to have a PC that can move and fire, but our choices are very slim in C:SM. For your reasons above, assault cannon/ML would make a better choice at the loss of a bit of range and the respect of Terminators.

[Koremu]

If I want an AP2 Blast, I tend to go straight to Vindicator.

 

Still, this thread has inspired me to open a box I've had sat waiting for a while:

 

http://s16.postimg.org/mjoivca44/IMAG0155.jpg

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Can't Overwatch with a Plasma Cannon, which makes it sub-optimal for getting too close to the enemy.

 

 

In fact, I'm not sure when i would use a Plasma Cannon Dreadnought. Now "Gets Hot!" is a 50% chance to lose a Hull Point, i'm not sure it's worth it, even for an AP2 Blast.

 

Without close combat weapons, I'd imagine there is a squad between the dread and the enemy. Get's Hot is a compromise for having the best anti-deep strike/ anti-terminator weapon on a "mobile" platform. I'd like to have a PC that can move and fire, but our choices are very slim in C:SM. For your reasons above, assault cannon/ML would make a better choice at the loss of a bit of range and the respect of Terminators.

 

Well, the OP did state he wanted something that operate in support of Tactical Terminators.  Once they're in assault, your CCW-less Dreadnought is no longer supporting them, is it?  That's why I advocating keeping the CCW.  Terminators and Dreadnoughts have something in common: individually, they don't pack a lot of attacks in melee, and Terminators, while tough, are normally hampered by a low model count per squad due to their expense and thus they don't normally pack the number of attacks available to lighter assault infantry units.  By throwing the Dreadnought's 2-3 attacks into the mix, it substantially increases the Tac Termies' attack numbers per assault round; they strike at similar Strength and AP values so there's no conflicting targeting issues; and the Dread actually provides a powerful at-Initiative assault that helps to balance the Unwieldy nature of the Termies' power fists.  Plus, if they are doing the charging against an infantry unit, the Dreadnought can charge first and absorb Overwatch, allowing the Termies to launch their charge free from lucky plasma or melta rounds that could seriously hamper their close combat effectiveness.

 

Honestly, if you want plasma cannons, Dreadnoughts are not the place to get them.  They're too easily destroyed in 6th Edition, and they're no longer "the safe bet" since Gets Hot! now affects vehicles.  If you want plasma cannons in a Codex Marine army, get them in your Tactical Squads.  Seriously.  They're 5 points a piece, and you need to fill those Troops slots anyway.

[Montuhotep]

So, taking the above advice I'm going to run a regular dreadnought with Assault Cannon, DCCW and Heavy Flamer for 125 points.

 

Since the Termie squad have a Cyclone Launcher, that much is decided.

 

 Now then; I've been looking at some FW stuff recently and for 5 points less you can get the Siege Dreadnought. Heavy Flamer/DCCW and a Flamestorm Cannon, with Extra Armour for free essentially (going on Apocalypse 2 stats which are the most recent I've got). It has the 40k stamp, so I can use it in a regular game. The question is, is that Flamestorm realistic on a non-drop podding dreadnought?

 

 Was pondering running a Termie squad, assault cannon dread and flamestorm dread as a mini "armoured wedge".

[Robert2004]

Noob question but would a heavy flamer auto hit on over watch or do you need to roll a 6? Not sure how this would work as a template weapon auto hits!

[Koremu]

Template Weapons cause D3 automatic hits in Overwatch, at normal STR and AP. Page 52, BRB

[Robert2004]

Thanks, Don't have a rule book at my house so things like this are a pain for me! Local gaming center has one to read tho =]

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So, taking the above advice I'm going to run a regular dreadnought with Assault Cannon, DCCW and Heavy Flamer for 125 points.

 

Since the Termie squad have a Cyclone Launcher, that much is decided.

 

 Now then; I've been looking at some FW stuff recently and for 5 points less you can get the Siege Dreadnought. Heavy Flamer/DCCW and a Flamestorm Cannon, with Extra Armour for free essentially (going on Apocalypse 2 stats which are the most recent I've got). It has the 40k stamp, so I can use it in a regular game. The question is, is that Flamestorm realistic on a non-drop podding dreadnought?

 

 Was pondering running a Termie squad, assault cannon dread and flamestorm dread as a mini "armoured wedge".

 

Honestly -- and as an Iron Hand, I own eight Dreadnoughts so this admission is painful -- I don't trust any Dreadnoughts in 6th Edition except Ironclads.  AV12 and 3 HPs is just too easy to kill, whereas AV13 and Stealth from its defensive grenades seriously increase its survivability.  And even then, they really need a drop pod to be effective.  But then again, I've steadily become a tournament player, so I tend to balance my fluff choices against what is most effective on the tabletop.

 

The reason I bring this up is because I think you'd be better off with an Ironclad for what you're talking about than the SiegeNought.  You'll have better armor, and you can still bring two heavy flamers.  If you must walk it, you can even balance out the lack of long-range firepower by taking a pair of hunter-killer missiles (hey, it's better than nothing!).  Plus, when operating in close support of the Termies, it has a base of three attacks rather than two and has two different DCCWs, so even if one gets ripped off, you're still hitting at S10 AP2.  It also has Move Through Cover, so it can maneuver through terrain easier than the regular Dread or the Termies can, which will be important if it's running the flank of a big block armored wedge.

 

Edit: Oh, and since it's a straight codex unit, you don't have to worry about your fellow players making a stink about bringing Forge World units into the mix.

[Captain Idaho]

The only problem with that use is it doesn't directly support his Terminaters.

 

Not that I feel that is an issue as you don't have to have two units doing the same thing to support each other. As an example, a dual heavy weapon Dread can march up the table into optimal range (say it had an assault cannon and autocannon) and add it's firepower to the Terminaters as needed, and fire at other threats when the Terminaters charge. They don't have to charge the same units.

[Huginn]

I can speak for the AsCn Dread w/ HF in support of termies w/ CM.

 

The dread has great utility, pops transports for the termies to shoot and charge the occupants.

 

I run mine with a 5 man squad. Small points investment for a fun flank anchor.