Pitfalls in the Blood Angels Codex

[Xenith]

This spawned from a thread on the use of priests, and was inspired by a comment made by Knife&fork on the 'bad' advice given by 'veteran players' on how to play a BA army effectively.

What I'd like to do here is to provide a resource on the most common traps in the BA codex as a kind of fact/warning sheet for the Frater Sanguine, and this involves all you guys.

Think about any gripes you have, or any common misconceptions, mistakes and pitfalls you see leading to ineffective use of the BA when they are on the table.

Please can you post your favourite misconceptions about the BA, whether it be a special rule that seems great, or unit that looks to be a 'must take' initially but actually isn't.

Can you post the gist of your arguement as a one/two line summary, then expand on it within the post, so I can make a list of points in this post, then link back to your thoughts.

Can we please try and post one comment per post, to allow everyone to chip in, and to make post cross referencing easier

I'll Start the Baal rolling:



1) Descent of Angels is not the be all and end all: Use it sparingly.
The Descent of Angels rule is one of those traps that seems to drag people in. The BA have access to lots of jump troops and can accurately deepstrike with them, so that is what we should be doing all the time, right? Wrong. The jump troops are generally decent in melee, and you cannot charge after deepstrike, with the exception of Vanguard. An all DoA army will likely be ground into paste, as you handily drop all your troops within rapid fire range of the enemy. In my opinion, assault troops are much better started on the board.
As with anything in the BA army, use DoA with precision, when you need a surgical strike to remove a target. Don't drop your whole army in every game, and instead, think what you gain by deepstriking each unit, and whether you could just as easily get your troops close to the opponent by making good use of cover. I would argue that the best time you should use DoA is against a guard army who have castled up in a corner with lots of ordnance and bubble wrap. Cover is sparing. Then you need to strike in close to remove the tanks if you can. It can be argues that with appropriate unit spacing, you can minimise the effectss of the ordnance, but the point stands in that you can generally argue against using all DoA more than you can make an arguement for using it.

2) Deep striking Land Raiders: you want to have it on table as soon as possible BloodTzar

3) Mephiston can't turn left: Mephiston just cannot deal with everything You need to pick his targets, and approach to them carefully Marshal Wilhelm, Xenith

[BloodTzar]

Deep striking Land Raiders

 

One of those traps, that *new* players might get attracted to.  As they see benefit of having a 250+ model deep in enemy DZ by 3rd turn. 

 

There is no benefit of having that expensive model that close to enemy melta range not being able to unload its cargo. The real benefit of LR is to take fire from all those high S weapons away from your more fragile stuff. Therefore you want to have it on table as soon as possible. 

 

~BT

[Coopervisor]

 

1) Descent of Angels is not the be all and end all. Use it sparingly.

 

The Descent of Angels rule is one of those traps that seems to drag people in. The BA have access to lots of jump troops and can accurately deepstrike with them, so that is what we should be doing all the time, right? Wrong. The jump troops are generally decent in melee, and you cannot charge after deepstrike, with the exception of Vanguard. An all DoA army will likely be ground into paste, as you handily drop all your troops within rapid fire range of the enemy. In my opinion, assault troops are much better started on the board.

          As with anything in the BA army, use DoA with precision, when you need a surgical strike to remove a target. Don't drop your whole army in every game.

 

I would say that in 5th I had lots of success with a full on DoA list, all deep striking and taking out armour with melta guns, weathering the return fire through weight of 3+ and 2+ save troops with a 4+ FNP, then charging in with +1 I and +1 S. 

 

In 6th edition, you cannot deep strike your entire list, FNP got worse against mass small arms fire (the sort of fire you'd encounter rapid firing), overwatch hurts assault and you got worse in close combat due to the lack of I5. 

 

I admit I've struggled with the change to 6th. it just seems much more focused on shooting (and flyers) and my fondness for assault based lists just doesn't translate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Xenith]

 

I would say that in 5th I had lots of success with a full on DoA list, all deep striking and taking out armour with melta guns, weathering the return fire through weight of 3+ and 2+ save troops with a 4+ FNP, then charging in with +1 I and +1 S. 

In 6th edition, you cannot deep strike your entire list, FNP got worse against mass small arms fire (the sort of fire you'd encounter rapid firing), overwatch hurts assault and you got worse in close combat due to the lack of I5. 

 

I admit I've struggled with the change to 6th. it just seems much more focused on shooting (and flyers) and my fondness for assault based lists just doesn't translate. 

True, they seemed to work in 5th when the BA dex came out, but it seemed like people caught on fast, and would wrap their valuable tanks with a 6" layer of troops to keep you out of melta range. I would still argue that even in 5th, Full DoA was only advisable when facing a 'parking lot' of tanks that you could melta and lance your way through.

 

Interceptor becoming potentially widespread has put another nail in the coffin. I suppose you could overwhelm the opponent's interceptor shooting with deepstriking bodies.

 

Deep striking Land Raiders

 

~BT

 

Cheers, BloodTzar! I agree, the dropping in the LR does seem fun at first, but dropping it out of melta range puts it in the same location as it would have been T2 if it had just started on the board! Not to mention that it doesnt get DoA, so may not show up (with its expensive cargo) until late game.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Mephiston being omni-directional.

 

I often have to remind people that Mephiston can't turn left, and that really catches out the more handsome Blood Angels players :)

 

:P

[knife&fork]

Marshal Wilhelm, on 30 May 2013 - 11:39, said:

Mephiston being omni-directional.

I often have to remind people that Mephiston can't turn left, and that really catches out the more handsome Blood Angels players

Lies, all lies. I suppose you are also one those who claim that all his different transfixing gazes are in fact the same look?

On a more serious note, this is how the conversation tends to go;

(newb) I want to play BA! Tell me how!

(non BA vet) Well you should max out on priests, take hammernators in stormravens and fill up with assault squads. It's what BA do.

Ok, thanks! I'm off to buy stuff!

(me) That doesn't look very good. This player will have a hard time. Hey non BA vet, have you actually played something like this or faced anything like it? If so did it really kick your butt?

No I haven't, and I don't play BA myself because they are a low tier codex.

[BloodTzar]

I would like to oppose K&F,

I am running dual SR with Meph (ouside of SR) and hammernators with libby and priest (corbs) as the base of my list and it work wonders

Prehaps I am one of those noobs listening

[Xenith]

The Dual Stormravens and hammernators are army list choices, and all is valid depending on how you want to run your army. It's not a bad strategy, per se, but it's very 'all your eggs in two baskets' 

 

Would it be safe to interpret Mephiston not being able to turn left as:

 

"Mephiston just cannot deal with everything" You need to pick his targets, and approach to them carefully.

 

I see a few people here and there complaining about not getting much use from Mephy when they throw them at things like termies. His statline tends to confidence, however the AP3  of his sword mean he will have a tough time with anything with 2+ saves, and the lack of invulnerable save mean that when caught in the open, he will die quickly against an opponent who can organise the AP2 firepower to drop him.

 

As ever, feel free to counter any and all points with reasoned arguments.

[knife&fork]

Having half your list tied up in two models is a very risky proposition when facing superior air power with combos of scythes, vendettas and drakes.

 

5-6 FNP hammernators is a good unit but not that good.

[Xenith]

K&F: When would you put a unit in a Stormraven, and what would that unit be?

[knife&fork]

K&F: When would you put a unit in a Stormraven, and what would that unit be?

 

The boring answer is that I wouldn't. Not in a competitive list.

 

I think the storm raven itself is too much of an investment compared to the cheap and plentiful fliers available as allies. Particularly if you want to risk using it as an assault vehicle.  

[Morticon]

I think Ravens are the shizzle.  Love em.  All my ultra competitive lists have em.  I'll only have a dread in though. 

[teblin]

On the note of Hammernators with FnP, can they take both their invuln, and upon failing that, the FnP too?

[Leonaides]

If the wound is caused by a weapon which doesn't ignore fnp, of course they can.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Talon dreads generally fare well hitched to a Raven, though K&F has a point. When the raven falls its passengers are gonna have a baaad time. Putting units in a raven can be very useful if your opponent's AA is lacking, but that situation isn't too common.

 

As for Meph, mine likes to perils all the time just to make the fight fair. I need to model a tiny dunce hat for him when he does that...

 

Another aspect I experienced, at least personally, was I didn't spread my units out against template armies. I often got tabled against IG lists with melta vets and leman russes. More to the point, I've found through experience that BA is not a point and shoot/assault army. Every move must be carefully planned with the correct order of operations, every piece of cover and LoS blocking terrain must be utilized, every objective must be accounted for. This was the only way I could survive without being tabled by my opponent's mass shooting armies. Luckily, fragiosos do a good jo of relaxing their fire support :D

[Squirrelloid]

I think its easy to underestimate how big of a deal FnP can be.  Especially if you're planning to end up in melee, since the 6th edition challenge rules discourage powerfists.

[Xenith]

So what other mistakes do you see people playing BA armies make? Whether they be new players, or hoary veterans. Remember, what may seem obvious to one person is a tactical revelation for another.

 

Not rolling for Red Thirst is a bad habit of mine. I just keep forgetting. It would be nice to get free Furious charge on a unit now and again, but the only units getting into combat will usually have a priest nearby anyway.

[Demoulius]

Well what pitfalls do BA players make? One that ive made pretty frequently (and probably the reason that sparked this thread if the replies in the other thread were any indication) is model placement. Its easy to have a 2nd squad be more then 6 inch away from the FC/FnP bubble just to see them beeing whittled away because you were over confident if your movement. Specialy if you used them with the 4+ FnP rolls. Assault marines shrugged off an amazing amount of small arms fire. If you found your squad out of the FnP bubble your opponent would quickly whittle that squad down causing a great number of casualties. One can also place his priest poorly and have him on the front where he has to LOS all the shots or risk dying.

 

Its easy to use the priest as a crutch and suffer for it. If used well though they are an amazing tool ^_^ id never advice someone to maximize on them though but 1 or 2 are generally never a bad idea.

 

Another pitfall (with current rules) would be having a SR with embarked squad AND dreadnought. Its fine that it CAN do it. But thats alot of points in 1 model. If your opponent guns it down (or it fails to show up till like 5th turn...) you have severly handicapped yourself. As a gunship it is amazing though :) as a transport the rules for fliers somewhat neuter its use (IMHO ofcourse, im sure people can make it work!)

 

Lets see... Fragiosos are also pretty hit or miss. (personal experience thus far anyway) They either utterly devastate a unit on landing and die. Or dont do much at all or die. What they do for your army though is atract a gargantuan amount of fire, specialy if a dedicated AT squad fails to kill him in time. If they live through first turn then all the better, your opponent will regret that fact most likely whilst the rest of your army has some respite because of the diminished amount of fire that is coming their way ^_^

[Chaplain Admetus]

This is a more general one and ties into things others have already said, but its golden general advice:

 

"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"

 

On a BA specific note related to the above: Deep-strike land raider (already mentioned), priests, combat squads, squeezing two halves of the combat squad into a rhino. This even extends into list selection. Do you really need Mephiston because he's a psychic beatstick? Or would your bases be better covered with that entire extra assault squad with a few toys you could get instead?

 

Also, and here's one I hear players saying all the time, "death company, with a death company dreadnought, in a storm raven". Yes, that's brutal, mobile, and will maul anything you hit with it. However, that's (at 1500 points) over a third of your army, no sweat. You're fighting with 2/3 of your strength in points against 100% of an opponent's army for potentially greater than 50% of the game, and that's a recipe for disaster.  Your nasty assault unit might not even get into the fight until turn 5, far too late to make an impact. Additionally, chances are the raven will need to drop into hover (vulnerable) mode to make the landing. I'm all for it with dreads, but the infantry transport capacity? Pass. I've seen a relatively new player put Mephy and a dread in a storm raven at 1000 points and wonder how he lost... probably the fact that he had 2 assault squads and some MM attack bikes facing down an entire army for 3 turns before the raven showed up.

 

I'll make a caveat - there will be times when you want a squad in the storm raven, but it is rare. I've done it once, ever - playing vs a triple soul grinder list and I needed to keep a squad in reserve til the very end, so stuck 5 marines and a librarian in there; one marine won the game by virtue of being the only scoring model left on the table at the end of turn 7 (and my only model aside from a 1HP raven and a drop pod).

 

On the priest point - being in the right place at the right time. You only get furious charge's bonus if you're within 6" of the priest AT THE TIME THE ATTACKS ARE MADE. If you're within 6" of a priest and charge something, but the priest doesn't charge, no FC bonus. If your opponent is able to strike out the priest at I5 or higher, no FC bonus. If there are one or two models in the unit that are juuuuuust within range of the priest in another squad, and pile-in moves or cunning precision striking at I5 can take them down (and I've seen both of these done), no FC bonus. This one's really subtle, and can be game changing, especially the latter.

[TheHarrower]

Here's a few more:

 

1. Don't equip Death Company with jump packs. The cost is too prohibitive for what you get. Put them in a Drop Pod or a Land Raider instead.

 

2. Use the Stormraven as a gunship not a transport (unless you are carrying a Blood Talon dread).

 

3. Leave Lemartes in stasis. Until we get to the point where he can remove his jump pack, the sacrifices you have to make to field him aren't worth it.

[Squirrelloid]

Dante's ability to unlock SG as troops: really not worthwhile.  Dante is already a really expensive unit, and SG are not point-efficient even before you start considering kit upgrades.  Worse, SG don't really pair well with Dante to make the best use of his special rules, and the squads that do are also expensive.

 

Astaroth's uncapping DC: careful.  If you're going to run a whole army of death company, remember you'll have to table your opponent to win, generally.

[Leonaides]

"Dont look at the light...!"

 

In general its far to easy to get distracted when building an army list and include all sorts of shiny weapon/equipment upgrades or elite/special units that cost a lot of points. Very often less is more - make sure you dont thin out the heart of your list too much by adding on all the bells and whistles.

[meniscusmike]

I'm finding that I'm using the BA more like I would codex marines now and the only thing that make my lists as BA is the DC in the SR, which I think is still awesome sauce!

[Leksington]

Are there any units that we didn't complain about in this thread?  

Hey new player, it's all terrible if you don't use it correctly! :P

[Taranis]

Are there any units that we didn't complain about in this thread?

Hey new player, it's all terrible if you don't use it correctly! :P

LOL :) I'm quite sure the codex isn't made from recycled paper as well. :)

It can sound as grumpy old men arguing but hey we aint! I'm only 40 next time. :tu: