Land Raiders - do they have a place in your army?

[Demoulius]

dswanick. Consider the option of taking one as a transport for ASM's. The 35 points discount is pretty nice :)

We also have more then the Phobos land raider mind Redeemers and crusaders can close and fire while functioning as a transport alot better then the phobos can. They also have bigger transport capacities. Infact, im fairly sure there isent a great drawback into gunning the engine and going full speed towards the enemy in a Redeemer, the range on those flamers is limited and you only got 1 worthwhile gun beside those! Its great for killing MEQ's I imagine. Never ran one sadly...

The Crusader ive seen in action a few times as an opponent I played regulary a while back was very fond of it. The torrent of fire it dishes out is manageable for MEQ but anything with a worse save (or thoughness, OR combined) suffers from it. Its nothing our Baals cant do better mind but when you have to transport termies I think there are worse options out there :)

[dswanick]

dswanick. Consider the option of taking one as a transport for ASM's. The 35 points discount is pretty nice

We also have more then the Phobos land raider mind Redeemers and crusaders can close and fire while functioning as a transport alot better then the phobos can. They also have bigger transport capacities. Infact, im fairly sure there isent a great drawback into gunning the engine and going full speed towards the enemy in a Redeemer, the range on those flamers is limited and you only got 1 worthwhile gun beside those! Its great for killing MEQ's I imagine. Never ran one sadly...

The Crusader ive seen in action a few times as an opponent I played regulary a while back was very fond of it. The torrent of fire it dishes out is manageable for MEQ but anything with a worse save (or thoughness, OR combined) suffers from it. Its nothing our Baals cant do better mind but when you have to transport termies I think there are worse options out there

My primary Marine army is currently Space Wolves. But if I were to compare the C:BA specific pros/cons I would add in:

Land Raider pros:

- 35pt reduction to cost

Predator/Rhino pros:

- Fast

Still not strongly in favor of the Land Raider...

BTW, I specifically meant the Phobos-pattern Land Raider. The mentioned variants are both more dedicated to their roles as Assault Transports with their role-complimenting armaments, larger Transport Capacity, and Frag Launchers (for those embarked units without Frag Grenades). I still think they are over-priced, but not as badly as the Phobos-pattern.

[Remtek]

Its really a stretch to compare Land Raiders to a Pred and Rhino, they serve different purposes.  Land Raiders are generally used for heavy assault termies or DC perhaps, you dont really put regular marines in LR (in short its the only reliable veichle to transport deathballs).You get more firepower per point with a pred yeah, but a rhino+pred is not more durable than a LR. Rhino's fall like paper as do predators when hit from the side. Plasma can't glance land raiders and in comptitive lists they are the current flavor.

 

Really depends if you are building a list that works well with what your 'local group' is playing or if you are trying to make a versatile competitive list.

 

Per point its really hard to say if they are worth it because of the huge investment :( They are garbage vs Necrons or lance Eldar, but godlike against list with little  melta, MC's and so on.

 

All i know for sure is that they are better in 6th than 5th.

[teblin]

I guess like with most Marine tanks, be safe and take more than one. And that means they're only much good in large games.

 

But that makes sense fluffy-wise, LRs are only called into action in the most dire situations.

[dswanick]

Per point its really hard to say if they are worth it because of the huge investment They are garbage vs Necrons or lance Eldar, but godlike against list with little melta, MC's and so on.

Armies Land Raiders are "garbage" against:

- Necrons (Gauss Glance)

- Eldar/Dark Eldar (Lance weapons)

- Imperial Guard (Melta Vets, Leman Russ Vanquishers)

- Space Marines (Melta, Melta, Everywhere)

- Chaos Space Marines (Melta, MCs)

- Chaos Daemons (Flying MCs)

- Tyranids (Flying MCs)

- Tau (Railguns)

So, what's left to be "god-like" agaiunst?

- Sisters

- Grey Knights

- Da ORKZ!!! (Does anyone even play them anymore )

[teblin]

Wot about da ORKZ!

And yes, some people still play them, including my opponent in a 1500 point game next week I'll add a Redeemer just for him.

[Theredknight]

Depends what your using it for.

I use my lrc at the moment to deliver death company and has been working very well.

T1 is travelling and positioning

T2 is generally delivering and close support, I find 2x twin link hurricanes and ass cannon very helpful against most t3 models we are seeing at the mo. plus doesn't hurt to stick a multi melta on there for 10 pts!!

T3+ is basically staying out of harms way and fists, yet blasting weaker troops where it can. I've had one survive till t5 before (wooooo) once though. It's usually dead t4 lol

 

I'm even toying with the idea of taking another one, just to scare the bejesus out of my enemy :)

[knife&fork]

So, what's left to be "god-like" agaiunst?

- Sisters

- Grey Knights

- Da ORKZ!!! (Does anyone even play them anymore )

Sisters and GK have no problem with AV14 either.

On the other hand it's not that easy to kill AV14.

[Remtek]

Per point its really hard to say if they are worth it because of the huge investment They are garbage vs Necrons or lance Eldar, but godlike against list with little melta, MC's and so on.

Armies Land Raiders are "garbage" against:

- Necrons (Gauss Glance)

- Eldar/Dark Eldar (Lance weapons)

- Imperial Guard (Melta Vets, Leman Russ Vanquishers)

- Space Marines (Melta, Melta, Everywhere)

- Chaos Space Marines (Melta, MCs)

- Chaos Daemons (Flying MCs)

- Tyranids (Flying MCs)

- Tau (Railguns)

So, what's left to be "god-like" agaiunst?

- Sisters

- Grey Knights

- Da ORKZ!!! (Does anyone even play them anymore )

Any army can field stuff that can take out AV14 but Necrons pretty much get it for free. In general people are switching out melta with plasma on for example tacticals squads. Mech got nerfed, termies buffed, flyers buffed, shooty footsloggers buffed. (i guess one exception would be assault marines, since they in general don't want to rapid fire)

One melta shot within 2d6 pen range has a roughly 19% chanse of wrecking or destroying a LR, if you take away the 2d6 it's alot lower. With premeasure you can identify large threats and adjust your positioning accordingly. It just does not make sense to run alot of melta in general now, so avoiding it becomes easier.

Str10 and so on will wreck them very often, but they do have to get in a position to do so, and whatever comes out of the LR has a 6"+6"+2d6 assault range (19" avg.) so it's not so easy to just run up and assault a LR. Libby's can give them 5+ cover making it really hard to take out in round 1-2-3.

Lets say you plan on using Mephiston to take out a LR; 3+ to hit 4+ to glance, it's a sure deal. The TH/SS termies inside will hard counter Mephiston hitting on 4+ and autowounding on 2+, same goes for MC. Bikes Landspeeders and similar units will still be hard to deal with though. Flyers do hurt, but they will generally be to late.

In my humble opinion i belive the drawback's of fielding them is still the price investment. In 5th you could spend around 500 points in one single unit that was hard to kill, but easy to stun. In 6th they will eventually die more often due to hull points, but it should often have served it's purpose by then. Transporting something strong and giving them a reliable assault while also doing damage. It does not have to make it points back in doing dmg, It should do that transporting and soaking shots.

Also a good read:

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/07/understanding-6th-why-land-raiders-work-again/

[Remtek]

When fielding them with DC are you running Boltgun or pistol/chainsword? I painted a few with poweraxes recently, but the rest are modelled with boltgun. I can't really decide what to pick. Boltgun seems like the clear choise in pods (relentless rapid fire and no assault when dropped) Though in Land Raiders they will generally get to assault. 

[teblin]

Rage gives them an extra base attack anyway, Bolter DC is more versatile, softening up an enemy squad with rapid fire bolters before charging is very helpful.

[knife&fork]

I usually run them with bolters, but the other kit is nice too. 2 attacks isn't a lot when they get stuck in a combat and 18-20 bolter shots is only 2 dead marines (or one terminator) on average anyway. 

[teblin]

I'd still wager Bolters are worthwhile.

 

Bolter vs. Marine:

 

Hit 3+

Wound 4+

Sv. 3+

 

CCW vs. Marine:

 

Hit 4+

Wound 4+

Sv.3+

 

and if you're running an LR full of DC, I would want them to be as versatile as possible due to the huge point sink.

[Demoulius]

Per point its really hard to say if they are worth it because of the huge investment They are garbage vs Necrons or lance Eldar, but godlike against list with little melta, MC's and so on.

Armies Land Raiders are "garbage" against:

- Necrons (Gauss Glance)

- Eldar/Dark Eldar (Lance weapons)

- Imperial Guard (Melta Vets, Leman Russ Vanquishers)

- Space Marines (Melta, Melta, Everywhere)

- Chaos Space Marines (Melta, MCs)

- Chaos Daemons (Flying MCs)

- Tyranids (Flying MCs)

- Tau (Railguns)

So, what's left to be "god-like" agaiunst?

- Sisters

- Grey Knights

- Da ORKZ!!! (Does anyone even play them anymore )

EVERY army has AT that can turn a LR into scrap with a single shot. Sisters got melta, grey knights have that MC knight thingy orks actually ALSO have melta (at BS2, but still) and S9 close combat attacks.

Glancing a tank to death is the main thing that kills it for me tbh. A rapid firing squad of necron warriors can kill any tank regardless of AV....

[Disruptor_fe404]

I'd still wager Bolters are worthwhile.

 

Bolter vs. Marine:

 

Hit 3+

Wound 4+

Sv. 3+

 

CCW vs. Marine:

 

Hit 4+

Wound 4+

Sv.3+

 

and if you're running an LR full of DC, I would want them to be as versatile as possible due to the huge point sink.

 

Death Company are WS5, so they hit MEQ on 3+ in CC as well.

[teblin]

 

I'd still wager Bolters are worthwhile.

 

Bolter vs. Marine:

 

Hit 3+

Wound 4+

Sv. 3+

 

CCW vs. Marine:

 

Hit 4+

Wound 4+

Sv.3+

 

and if you're running an LR full of DC, I would want them to be as versatile as possible due to the huge point sink.

 

Death Company are WS5, so they hit MEQ on 3+ in CC as well.

 

D'OH!

[Disruptor_fe404]

I think the case to be made for bolters vs CCWs is how much the Overwatch reduction matters vs the extra attacks with Furious Charge.

[knife&fork]

I think the case to be made for bolters vs CCWs is how much the Overwatch reduction matters vs the extra attacks with Furious Charge.

 

The impact on overwatch is negligible. You'll go from worthless to even more worthless, and if you don't get the charge you'll have even more use of the extra attacks.

36 overwatch bolter shots to kill a single MEQ on overwatch...

 

Bolter DC are versatile but it's easy to overestimate the effectiveness of the bolter fire on most targets.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I was merely framing the argument for better posters to expand upon (as you have!).

 

Also, I agree. I'd only throw the bolters on powerfisters.

[teblin]

If I may allow myself a single off-topic question:

 

 

DC have 2 base attacks in the army list Codex. Does that include the addition of Rage, or does Rage then take them up to 3?

[knife&fork]

If I may allow myself a single off-topic question:

 

 

DC have 2 base attacks in the army list Codex. Does that include the addition of Rage, or does Rage then take them up to 3?

 

Rage gives 2 extra attacks, on the charge only. So for bolter DC it's 2 attacks base and 4 on the charge. For DC with bolt pistols and chain swords it's 3 base and 5 on the charge. 

[teblin]

Wow, I did not know that. I need to field them more often.

[Monolythic]

One word,,, Mantacores. I leave the LR's at home and take 3 storm ravens.

[Office temp]

Wow, I did not know that. I need to field them more often.

 

Well.........YEAH!

[knife&fork]

One word,,, Mantacores. I leave the LR's at home and take 3 storm ravens.

 

Three words... Night scythes and Vendettas. I leave the storm ravens at home and focus on the ground troops. :P

 

Seriously though, how often do we see more than one manticore in IG lists these days? It's all about the blobs and flyers. And flyers doesn't help with shutting down that manticore turn one.