When to take the squad leader

[minigun762]

I'm going back and forth on the value of taking the various squad leaders for the daemon troops.
It's a fairly cheap upgrade, 15 points buying you the upgrade and a lesser gift, typically a weapon, to give you some AP2 punch. That's as much as a standard power weapon on a Marine squad so it's quite a deal. You could not buy the gift and keep the upgrade cheap but I'd rather spend the 4-5 extra points to buy another body instead.

That said, I don't know if it offers that much to the squads in general.

 

Daemonettes bring enough AP2 through rending for the most part and while more is good, it's not required.

Bloodletters only really need the AP2 if they're up against terminators but that is a situation you don't want to be in as its a waste of the bulk of your squad's attacks, so its useful as a "what if".

Plaguebearers don't have any low AP attacks so the AP2 is useful. However, they're almost always going to be camping a backfield objective, not actively assaulting targets and if they do get assaulted, I'm not sure that a single power weapon will be enough to tip the scales.

Horrors should be shooting, I see no real value here at all.

 

Now if you're attaching a herald to the squad I see the value, as another character to absorb challenges, but otherwise, I'm not sold on it yet.

 

Have people had more experience with the upgrade being useful? Useless?

[Monkeychunks]

I disagree that the AP2 is the main reason to buy a Champion, it's merely a very nice perk. Instead I think it needs to be evaluated as a 5pt Challenge mechanic-unlock.

 

Horrors- Precision Fire for 5pts, possibly pending on a FAQ but until then absolute glory. Every single time.

Bloodletters- +1 Attack, opens up Challenge opportunities/weaknesses and potential for AP2. While the Challenge can potentially save casualties against Bloodletters, it also gives enemy characters a place to 'hide'. The AP2 is also unnecessary because a single, removable AP2 weapon does not make the unit anti-Terminator and completely wastes everyone else's Hellblades. I would skip.

Daemonettes- Same benefits/issues as above. Slightly better place to stick an Aetherblade because Rending still offers plenty of anti-Terminator, so perhaps a better option than the Bloodletters. Still not something I would say is necessary and generally something to skip.

Plaguebearers- Low offensive output and generally required to be a tarpit, means that the ability to tie people up in Challenges can be a good thing. I wouldn't splash for the Lesser Gifts but it might buy you an extra turn against a marauding character/MC.

 

The 'elite' daemon units are harder to define because the stats and Wound counts actually make winning a Challenge quite likely, and so it becomes less use as a tarpit and more for actually killing characters. It's also cheap enough to slap onto a unit without really affecting the final value, so I think they become a much more attractive option for units like Bloodcrushers and Plague Drones. In particular, a Drone with Venom Sting and an Aetherblade possesses a very decent chance to remove a monster, if you can survive the Smash.

[Black_Crusader]

+1 on what Monkeychunks said.

 

Also about the gift, i have given the axe on bloodletters a few times and when i mention that this guy could insta death on a to wound roll of six it always makes my opponents think it a little.

I recall two battles against orks when my bloodreaper with axe ended up in a fight with boys including a nob with powerklaw. The first time i was lucky and scored the 6+ to wound in the challenge, the second my opponent refused the challenge for fear of what might happen. And all this is just a 10 point upgrade that could sometimes work nice.

[minigun762]

I see the value of the squad leader for playing with challenges but in terms of supporting the overall goal of the squad, I think it's less defined.

 

At the end of the day, its only 5 points if you're not worried about the rewards and in a full sized squad, why not right? You've already invested nearly 200 points anyway, might as well get a little extra.

[Cheex]

I haven't used any squad leader upgrades yet for my Daemons (my Bloodletters don't see combat enough to bother), but I like the idea of spending 15pts for a bit of AP2 action that can be used in challenges.

[Black_Crusader]

Don't forget the extra attack, 5 points for one more profile attack is not bad especially on bloodletters but on plaguebearers and daemonettes as well. 

[Sixestohit]

I think they're worth the points to soak challenges personally. If say Mephiston jumps your squad then you can bog him down for an extra turn whilst you send in help from a greater demon or whatever.

 

Challenges are becoming a game within the game and I'd say it's always worth 5 points for the potential of saving casualties in the squad.

 

James.

[Black_Crusader]

Might worth mention it:

The irridiscent horror upgrade gives you a chance to avoid having another of your psykers blow up after rolling 3 on warp storm. Saved a Herald of Tzeentch the other day because of the little horror...

[Sception]

As mentioned, until errata says otherwise, squad leader should be considered obligatory for horrors to get precision shot on their shooting attack.

[Makers]

Agreed  with above.

5 points for precision shots from horrors is worth it. 

 

I never have one on Plaguebearers as they are generally objective sitting.

 

Nettes and Letters can be viable if the points are there. but normally, these are last priority in list building.

[minigun762]

Good eye on the Horror upgrade.

 

I tend to skip over them as I prefer not to have to pass a half dozen rolls only to grant my target FnP...

[Sception]

same, but at least with that many precision shots you have a good chance of picking out a couple models to die. Giving the rest of the squad FNP in order to take out a squad leader or a couple special weapons still doesn't strike me as the best deal, and I still think its the most obnoxiously terrible and unfun special rule in the game, but I'm past the point of calling them ompletely worthless once the precision shot thing was pointed out to me.

[Dam13n]

In most of the lists I've written for CD (usually allied with CSM) I've always gone for the character upgrade.  5pts for being able to challenge and +1A is a pretty good deal.

 

Now most of those lists are either mono-nurgle or slaa-nurgle and include at least 2 units of Plaguebearers.  Now putting them on an objective in a ruin (best place for them) and including a Herald with Locus of Fecundity for FnP means a Plagueridden is a good bet for soaking up a challenge for a turn or more.  Now I would go etherblade as well for AP2, as it presents a decision for any character packing an unwieldy weapon (as so many do now).

 

The simple fact is that T4 and a 2+ cover (ruin + shrouded) or a 5++ and 5+ FnP means most enemies will struggle to kill them with shooting, so in order to take them off the objective - that means assaulting them.

 

If I can challenge with the Plagueridden and tie up you character, Use the Herald (also with an Etherblade) to kill some of your guys, and trust to the effective re-rollable 5++ to keep my Plaguebearers alive, I've got a good chance of keeping the combat going, giving me time to counter assault with a CSM unit - or use psychic buffs/nerfs to swing the 2nd round of combat in my turn (once the enemy charge has been blunted).

 

The key thing being holding my objective(s) thus giving me tactical freedom to go after the enemy using the obligatory Heldrake, Burning Brand Lord/Sorc/DP and whatever else I like to cleanse your objective(s) of your troops, and then threaten them with PMs/NMs/Daemonettes (depending on the list I'm using).

 

Going back to the Etherblade decision - I'd take it because he's hitting at I with an AP2 weapon, true - there's a chance he'll die before he gets to strike if a character is hitting at initiative, but as I said, if that character isn't (thanks to unwieldy) - it's a big decision - risk taking wounds on the character (through accepting) or refuse, which means your character cannot fight at all.

 

Indecision is a great tool, if you can inspire it.  And for 10pts, I'd say it's worth it.

 

- - - - - -

 

As far as Bloodletters go - you already have an AP3 weapon, so it's not mandatory, but I do like the idea of sneaking an Axe of Khorne in there if I have points left over.

 

Daemonettes - Guaranteed AP2 is better than Rending against infantry.  But If I had to choose one Slaanesh model to have it, I'd put it on the Herald with the Locus of Beguilement - Plenty of Re-rolls, high I and AP2, plus unrefusable challenges - pretty handy if you ask me.  The Slaanesh weapons aren't much to write home about, so I wouldn't choose them personally.

 

Horrors - Precision shot is fun, but I find, if I get one, it usually fails to wound - sods law at work.  Plus, it all comes to nought once that power is denied - as you know it will, right when you need it to go off the most.  A melee weapon upgrade for a shooty squad also usually works out as a waste of points, so I'd just ignore them on horrors, personally.