Deathwing; Current Meta

[Azrael Turnbull]

Hey guys

 

I have been inactive for a while, so apologies if a similar topic exists elsewhere. I'm making this topic due to the current Dakka Pole meta of the Dark Angels. The best Greenwing & Ravenwing lists that we can possibly make MUST include a Dakka Pole, or so I have found. My issue is that no mater how long I sit down with pen to paper, I cannot produce a Deathwing list that can be as competative as the Greenwing or Ravenwing.

 

So, before I give up, I want to see if somebody has thought of something that I haven't. Is there a way to keep Deathwing in the Dark Angels meta, or have they been left behind, only to be used in fun games?

[Pbenner]

The reason that the Dakka Pole works so well with the Black and Green aspects of our army is that they are very much a shooty army.  Very limited access to power weapons, or very costly, and their shooty power really compensates for that.  

 

Compare that to the Deathwing, where even two or three terminators are a scary thing to look at in Close Combat - Our ability to shoot is limited by either shooting and I1 being tied together, but it's not all that bad.

 

In the current Meta Deathwing doesn't need the Dakka pole.  We would benefit more from a Standard of Fortitude being protected by a couple walls of Terminators, but that gets to be expensive.  We also do well with the DW Company Banner granting us the +1 attack in Close Combat, but unless you're over 2K points, your scoring units will suffer to make this work.  

 

Best,

 

Paul 

[Azrael Turnbull]

I feel that I need to reiterate what I mean. I do not, nor ever will, plan to take the Dakka Pole with Deathwing. Forget the Dakka Pole altogether. What I want to know is if there is any way to field the Deathwing competitively? So far, every list I play test with against my other lists, the Deathwing are on the losing side by far. I just don't like the idea of Deathwing being the 'weak link' of tourney games.

[Onisuzume]

Eh, as-is, the Friendship Standard only works with the LRCs anyhow.

An expensive banner to make just 6/12/18 bolters slightly better.

 

If anything, the current way to optimise DW is with the standard of Fortitude to make them tougher than nails.

Get into cover if you prefer, and it'll take a *lot* to dislodge them.

[elphilo]

Its a shame that I think this (because Deathwing is my love) but with the release of the last two codices I just don't think Deathwing is competitive. With the amount of overwhelming firepower that Tau can put out you'll be making a ton of saves left and right, eventually you'll start failing them. With Eldar reinforcing their MEQ/TEQ killeness (pseudo rending on almost everything) and their speed (run/shoot or shoot/run) it'll be really tough to catch up to them. Now the SoF helps negate both of these, but that command squad takes points away from more bodies for/in scoring units. I feel Deathwing is in between a rock and a hard place right now. Hopefully this thread will sway my views, but I doubt it

[Disruptor_fe404]

I've been playing a pure Deathwing list at 1500 since the Codex hit, and it's not easy at all. Heaps of clsoe games, but I've only won a single game with the list so far.

 

Part of the problem is that we play free-for-alls with more than two players though.

[Pbenner]

My games have been very skewed, but we've had a semi-local place start 40K and they have some 40+ new players, so I am going to get a nice real dose of information here soon.  Should be interesting to see.  

 

The problem I am running into is that people are spamming AP2 ranged fire power very easily in most lists.  Really neuters Terminators hard.  

 

Paul

[jeremy1391]

Generalship and a little luck have seen my deathwing through!!! Do we cry because the pointy ears have pseudo rend? No! Do we fret because the tau have bs2 overwatch? No! We do what we do best, we deep strike and bring the pain onto the heads of our foes! This is why I am starting to take heavy flamers with belials squad, a well place deep strike will flambé a big chunk of enemy troops in cover, and the ones that are hurty to us (eldar/tau) won't be getting their saves against a twin linked heavy flamer! They can hurt us but we can hurt them right back! Glory to the first!

[Pbenner]

I've been thinking the same thing, and a Dreadnought with a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer, a CCW, and a Heavy Flamer makes a great secondary punch turn 1...

 

Paul

[elphilo]

Generalship and a little luck have seen my deathwing through!!! Do we cry because the pointy ears have pseudo rend? No! Do we fret because the tau have bs2 overwatch? No! We do what we do best, we deep strike and bring the pain onto the heads of our foes! This is why I am starting to take heavy flamers with belials squad, a well place deep strike will flambé a big chunk of enemy troops in cover, and the ones that are hurty to us (eldar/tau) won't be getting their saves against a twin linked heavy flamer! They can hurt us but we can hurt them right back! Glory to the first!

While I admire your enthusiasm I just don't think the current meta allows for a competitive Deathwing army. All the alpha strikes you do versus Tau might kill a unit or two of firewarriors or crisis suits/broadsides. But the overwhelming firepower you'll get in return, you won't make up for the points you lose versus the points you killed. I can't say this as much for Eldar since I haven't played against them yet. Just all their abilities to just destroy MEQ/TEQ (which is what they've always done so no suprise there) to me have sealed the Deathwing's fate. Now if you're not playing in a tournament and just friendly games I'm sure they will be viable, but in a tournament setting I don't think they will work.

But like I said, I hope to be proven wrong

[Pbenner]

I don't think that DWA against massivly shooty armies is a good idea - you're playing right into their strengths.  

 

I'm a firm believer in hugging terrain and making them come to you.  Let Overwatch play into your strengths if they want to charge, or make them get in close enough that you can hop out and smack the crap out of them.  Don't be afraid of taking the disorderly charge and hope to break multiple units.  Just keep after them.  The other option is to have Belial on the field with a small unit, and use him as a homing beacon to get your missiles down and twin-linked for the turn.  

 

I think they're viable, but our "cool trick" isn't always the most sound tactical option.  

[[TA]Typher]

 

I don't think that DWA against massivly shooty armies is a good idea - you're playing right into their strengths.  

 

I'm a firm believer in hugging terrain and making them come to you.  Let Overwatch play into your strengths if they want to charge, or make them get in close enough that you can hop out and smack the crap out of them.  Don't be afraid of taking the disorderly charge and hope to break multiple units.  Just keep after them.  The other option is to have Belial on the field with a small unit, and use him as a homing beacon to get your missiles down and twin-linked for the turn.  

 

I think they're viable, but our "cool trick" isn't always the most sound tactical option.  

 

I pretty much only play DW. I played a 2k game vs Tau the other day. The mission was the Relic, which is horrible for the Tau. He castled in one corner. I haven't won a game vs Tau since the new book, but between the mission and his deployment it seemed like I had a good chance.

 

Turn 1 he exploded my Landraider with Longstrike. I deepstruck right on the relic and took it. For the next 6 turns he whittled me down as the hordes of shots slowly wore me down to nothing. Even with the BoF the volume of shots (at BS 5) were game breaking. At the end of his turn six all 4 of my scoring units were dead. With his first blood (my Landraider) I lost.

 

The current DW is really lacking. The things they added have mixed usefulness. DWA is great, but the 50% reserve rule still hampers it dramatically. Vengance strike? Marginally usefull. With such a low volume of fire in the DW army the re-roll is nice, but hardly game changing. Splitfire is probably the only usefull ability that really helps the DW. I would have preferred a rule that helped with DS scatter, or more options for locator beacons. Maybe only having the DW scatter 1D6 instead of two.. I dunno. Taking at least 1 TH/SS in a Term unit is almost mandatory to help against those low AP weapons, but the TH and LC Terms don't benefit from spitfire of Vengeance strike... if I'm paying for those abilities... why do I still have to pay for the TH?

 

With the Sgt load-out ruling and the DWA ruling the DW only got weaker. Neither would have made the DW overpowered, in fact they would have still been subpar to armies like the Tau. Anyway..

 

Against some of the other armies like CSM or C:SM the DW aren't that bad. Against a tau army they really have little chance if the Tau player knows what he's doing. Marker lights and firewarriors own the DW.

[Pbenner]

If you're playing on a 4' x 6' board, and the Relic started in the middle of the board, he should have gotten ONE or TWO turns of shooting.  Missions like Relic make it a no brainer to DWA Belial and his team and start them marching.  Forget coming to him, if you work the primary and deny him the ability to remove units you're going to win.  Run that stuff home and make him come for you.  Tuck your arse behind terrain and deny his LOS and Longstrike is a pushover.  

 

Once he starts to advance, let him, make him get into charge range - he'll get one volley of fire at you on your charging turn, but your terminators will still eat him.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[[TA]Typher]

 

If you're playing on a 4' x 6' board, and the Relic started in the middle of the board, he should have gotten ONE or TWO turns of shooting.  Missions like Relic make it a no brainer to DWA Belial and his team and start them marching.  Forget coming to him, if you work the primary and deny him the ability to remove units you're going to win.  Run that stuff home and make him come for you.  Tuck your arse behind terrain and deny his LOS and Longstrike is a pushover.  

 

Once he starts to advance, let him, make him get into charge range - he'll get one volley of fire at you on your charging turn, but your terminators will still eat him.

 

Best,

 

Paul

You can't run with the relic AND you can only move with it on turn 2, as you don't take possession of it until the END of the movement phase. . If the model (Not the unit) touching it dies.. you drop it and the process starts all over. 30 inch range on fire warriors + Movement = always shooting. BS 5 = hits on 2 wounds on 3. he doesn't need to get into charge range.. they can skirt around cover. Crisis suits can move then run and then assault jump for huge distances. The key factor is Line of Sight blocking terrain. If there isn't enough of it the DW auto lose, which was the case here.

 

P.S.

 

Fun Fact: The Relic rule says you can't run with the relic, BUT it says nothing about turbo boosting with it. Technically you could scout move, normal move and then turbo boost away on turn 1.. if you are a scoring bike that is.

 

It seems cheesy, but it's hard to tell with GW if that is the RAI.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Totally agree that DW are again subpar, how long did they shine? I lost my watch ;)

 

I added 3x WW to my tri-wing force the other day; every time my opponents Firewarriors got out to shoot they got nearly wiped out. A bit of a chess tit-for-tat but eventually I got him 6vp-1vp due to playing the mission.

I lost all but two of my DW, all of my RWCS and my Biker Int-Chappy warlord but still had 1.5 squads of Tacticals and all three WW left (we use heaps of large terrain, cityfight style). 

DW were relatively impotent even with split fire and VS, they drew some fire from the rest of my army, turned a few critical Suit units around which helped at the strategic level but killed bugger all and in that army didn't score on the objective... meh.

 

Moral of the story...DW alone are not that good, they can help but are nearly suicidal in the rear unsupported vs. Tau.

 

s

[BigGumbo]

@TA Typher

 

Yep, turbo boosting is fine, as is moving Flat out with your scoring unit's transport. You're limited to moving no more than 6" per phase with the Relic but running is the only type of move that's specifically forbidden.

[[TA]Typher]

 

@TA Typher

 

Yep, turbo boosting is fine, as is moving Flat out with your scoring unit's transport. You're limited to moving no more than 6" per phase with the Relic but running is the only type of move that's specifically forbidden.

 

Which makes no sense.

[gon423]

It has been interesting to read people's posts to this thread.  I am slowly building my DW army and have had a chance to play my buddy who has Tau.  So far we have  played only once (750 pts, I am still painting the rest of my army) and I got completely obliterated.  Having said this, after the game, I could not help but think that terrain setup may have had a huge impact on the result of the game.  So with that in mind, I would like to ask all: what are your thoughts on the effect terrain may have on a DW/Tau march up, and is there any type of terrain setup that may help offset Tau unit/ability superiority....?

[[TA]Typher]

 

It has been interesting to read people's posts to this thread.  I am slowly building my DW army and have had a chance to play my buddy who has Tau.  So far we have  played only once (750 pts, I am still painting the rest of my army) and I got completely obliterated.  Having said this, after the game, I could not help but think that terrain setup may have had a huge impact on the result of the game.  So with that in mind, I would like to ask all: what are your thoughts on the effect terrain may have on a DW/Tau march up, and is there any type of terrain setup that may help offset Tau unit/ability superiority....?

Terrain is very very important.Not just normal terrain, as your saves will usually be better than any they can provide, but LOS (line of sight) limiting terrain. Sadly, if you've ever played a tourney they tend to have sparse placement of LOS terrain. When I say LOS I don't mean those crappy pillars that don't really hide a full unit, but an actual building or similar placement that can completely hide a unit.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275029-batrep-dw-vs-csm-w-vassalpics/?do=findComment&comment=3364982

 

Here is a good example of proper DW terrain. The building in the middle helped me win the game.

 

Sadly, this is usually not the case with most board set-ups.

[BigGumbo]

To be honest, my experience is that DW will suffer and insurmountable model count disadvantage at points levels much below 1500...

[march10k]

Sorry, been AFK for five weeks...Deathwing have never been autowin. Low model count in a D6 based system is a massive handicap. That said, I don't think DW are less competitive than before; in fact, I think they're better than ever. The difference is that our green and black toys are excellent for the first time since 3rd edition. It's not that DW got bad, it's that the other flavors got so much better that DW seem bad by comparison. Nevertheless, I'm having lots of fun eviscerating foes who see my army and think "doesn't he know he should be playing dakkapole?"

We are extremely vulnerable to torrenting. So? Deny the enemy the opportunity to shoot at your terminators. Easier said than done? I think not. It starts with the premise that you will always aim to go second, and DWA on (the bottom of) turn two. Obviously, this protects your DWAing models from 1/3 of the enemy's potential shooting (realistically, the effect is greater than that, based on the idea that an enemy model killed in turn one is worth more than an enemy model killed in turn four, and the fact that some of the enemy will die without ever getting off a single shot), but what about the rest? After all, you have to have models on the board at the end of each turn, or autolose. The answer is the unkillable land raider. Two of them, actually. Field Belial with an assault terminator squad in a dedicated crusader alongside a knight squad with a dedicated crusader and with a prescience libby toting a PFG on a bike hiding behind belial's ride, but close enough to shield the knight tank.

Since you're going second, that also means deploying second. That helps you to put the two tanks in the ideal spot to make your bottom-of-turn-two moment of glory count, while also taking the deployment of enemy anti-tank weapons into account. On turn one, you simply drive straight at your chosen victim at maximum speed. The extra inches count more than dakka at this point. By the midpoint of turn two, you've given the enemy two turns of nothing to shoot at except for two venerable land raiders with 4++ saves. That's a tall order, and more importantly, it's a total waste of most of their shooting.

On turn two, you drop two tactical terminator squads (your DWA element, I failed to specify what it was), and light the enemy up with four twinlinked assault cannons, four hurribolters, eight twinlinked stormbolters, and of course Belial's stormbolter and any heavy weapon his squad may be toting (I favor the heavy flamer). Then you sweep in with the assault terminators and the knights. After that, if you've abandoned an objective in your home zone, you can either run a squad back to it (trust me, it's the least of the enemy's problems if it's running away from him) or mount it in a crusader to ferry it back across the board (depending on what assets the enemy might have devoted to the task of taking that objective).

That's not competitive? I call it unfair.


 

 

BigGumbo, on 05 Jun 2013 - 03:53, said:
To be honest, my experience is that DW will suffer and insurmountable model count disadvantage at points levels much below 1500...
 

 

 

Oh, I definitely agree with that...but I haven't played anything but 1750 and 1850 in...years.

[AngelVeto]

March,

Your DW posts always excite me. I'm good with ravenwing but like all the others I've had issues running DW so I always enjoy reading how you do it.

[elphilo]

While I haven't played the dual Land Raider list versus Tau yet, I don't know how well it will do. One piece of equipment can negate all your hard work on hiding that libby (or Techmarine if you choose to take that instead) and that is the Smart Missile System. Homing is probably the worst thing that has happened to this game since AP3 Starcannons. So while everyone is saying you need Line of Sight breaking terrain/hide behind a Land Raider, Tau players will just laugh at you and still shoot you without having to even see you

Tau have really thrown a wrench into the meta. If you build to go against them specifically you're not too good against anyone else, if you don't build with them in mind, they will wipe the floor with you.

[jeremy1391]

Aren't tau missiles only str 7 ap 4?

[elphilo]

The High-Yield ones are yes, but the Smart Missiles Systems are only S5AP5. But they are both Heavy 4, which is the kicker. You'll still get your save, but you're probably going to be making a lot of them :(