Deathwing; Current Meta

[Onisuzume]

The answer is the unkillable land raider. Two of them, actually. Field Belial with an assault terminator squad in a dedicated crusader alongside a knight squad with a dedicated crusader and with a prescience libby toting a PFG on a bike hiding behind belial's ride, but close enough to shield the knight tank.

Sorry, but I want to disagree with that considering that it'd be about 2/3rds of my points spread between 1 squad and 2 vehicles, not even counting the required troop choices (Belial would, of course, go with Knights or command squad).

With the added troop choice minimums, I'm left with just enough points to get a TLAC Mortis.

 

While going for footsloggers from 1st turn I'd have a well-rounded list with 26 terminators, including Fortitude Standard.

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

 

 

The answer is the unkillable land raider. Two of them, actually. Field Belial with an assault terminator squad in a dedicated crusader alongside a knight squad with a dedicated crusader and with a prescience libby toting a PFG on a bike hiding behind belial's ride, but close enough to shield the knight tank.

Sorry, but I want to disagree with that considering that it'd be about 2/3rds of my points spread between 1 squad and 2 vehicles, not even counting the required troop choices (Belial would, of course, go with Knights or command squad).

With the added troop choice minimums, I'm left with just enough points to get a TLAC Mortis.

 

While going for footsloggers from 1st turn I'd have a well-rounded list with 26 terminators, including Fortitude Standard.

While I'd like to try 2 land raiders ( I only own one) I kinda agree with you. Vs Tau (long Strike) BS 5 and tank hunter with a str 10 shot = 265 points dead on turn 1. Trust me.. it happened to me last week.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Now, if only they could deep strike from Thunderhawk Transporters ;)

 

Oh that's right, our fleet based Legion can't do that :P

 

:D

s

[Disruptor_fe404]

My most recent game with my pure-DW list saw me losing on 4 VPs against 5 VPs, and that was only because my opponent made the (literal) one and only 5+ FNP roll he needed to. If he hadn't made that save, it would have been 9 VPs for me against his 5.

 

So yeah, meta-dependent.

[march10k]

While I haven't played the dual Land Raider list versus Tau yet, I don't know how well it will do. One piece of equipment can negate all your hard work on hiding that libby (or Techmarine if you choose to take that instead) and that is the Smart Missile System. Homing is probably the worst thing that has happened to this game since AP3 Starcannons. So while everyone is saying you need Line of Sight breaking terrain/hide behind a Land Raider, Tau players will just laugh at you and still shoot you without having to even see you

Tau have really thrown a wrench into the meta. If you build to go against them specifically you're not too good against anyone else, if you don't build with them in mind, they will wipe the floor with you.

LOL...I play tau. SMS isn't all that you think it is, especially if the opponent knows what units have SMS...just like with hive guard (the other known-to-me los-free shooter). It's 24" range. As long as you're not targeting the SMS unit itself, it's not a threat to something hiding behind the land raider. Add the length of the tank to the charge threat range of the unit inside the tank, and suddenly 24" is really a little bit too short to attack a threat behind the tank. And if you are able to...you're talking about a T5 3+ multiwound character. He's a big boy, he can take a little incidental shooting. There's never going to be enough SMS in range to torrent him.

[march10k]

 

The answer is the unkillable land raider. Two of them, actually. Field Belial with an assault terminator squad in a dedicated crusader alongside a knight squad with a dedicated crusader and with a prescience libby toting a PFG on a bike hiding behind belial's ride, but close enough to shield the knight tank.

Sorry, but I want to disagree with that considering that it'd be about 2/3rds of my points spread between 1 squad and 2 vehicles, not even counting the required troop choices (Belial would, of course, go with Knights or command squad).

With the added troop choice minimums, I'm left with just enough points to get a TLAC Mortis.

 

While going for footsloggers from 1st turn I'd have a well-rounded list with 26 terminators, including Fortitude Standard.

 

I respect your decision, but I'm not sold that 26 terminators that are being shot at on turn one by everything in the enemy inventory is a better idea than two turns of presenting no target except for two copies of the toughest vehicle in the game barring superheavies and titans (maybe just titans!) for fully 1/3 of the enemy's game, and then still having 21-22 terminators to your 26, all of them presented en masse and un-shot-at at the point of my choosing on turn two.  I don't know what points level you play, but I only play 1850 and (rarely) 1750...26 termies sounds like at least 1750, though...

[march10k]

 

 

 

 

 

The answer is the unkillable land raider. Two of them, actually. Field Belial with an assault terminator squad in a dedicated crusader alongside a knight squad with a dedicated crusader and with a prescience libby toting a PFG on a bike hiding behind belial's ride, but close enough to shield the knight tank.

Sorry, but I want to disagree with that considering that it'd be about 2/3rds of my points spread between 1 squad and 2 vehicles, not even counting the required troop choices (Belial would, of course, go with Knights or command squad).

With the added troop choice minimums, I'm left with just enough points to get a TLAC Mortis.

 

While going for footsloggers from 1st turn I'd have a well-rounded list with 26 terminators, including Fortitude Standard.

While I'd like to try 2 land raiders ( I only own one) I kinda agree with you. Vs Tau (long Strike) BS 5 and tank hunter with a str 10 shot = 265 points dead on turn 1. Trust me.. it happened to me last week.

Great....that anecdote is about as relevant as the time that my plasma cannon vennie potted not one, but two (!!) hammerheads in one game...or the time that my librarian with a force staff instagibbed a dreadknight.  Anything can happen.  Calculate the odds of just one venerable land raider with a 4+ invulnerable save going down.  Then consider this.  In my list, there are two of those tanks.  And it's disastrous for either one of them to reach the enemy's lines.  Pick your poison if, by the grace of the emperor, one of my easy-to-kill oversized rhinos manages to survive your withering fire:

 

1)  You popped the Belial+assault tank on turn one.  You'll still eat a faceload of knights on turn two, but the supporting tactical terminators will scatter, while belial's squad grabs a near objective.

 

2) You popped the Belial+assault tank on turn two.  You'll still eat a faceload of knights on turn two, and the supporting tactical terminators will not scatter, and Belial's squad will be unable to charge until turn three.

 

3)  You popped the knight tank on turn one.  You'll still eat a faceload of assault terminators on turn two, and the supporting tactical terminators will not scatter.  The knights will just have to run upfield with their T5 2+/3++.  (please shoot at them!)

 

4)  You popped the knight tank on turn two.  Same as case 3), only the knights are 18" closer to you.

 

Having two unkillable landraiders is not like having one of them twice.  It's five times as good because it gives me a serious level of redundancy.  The only real gain from killing one of my crusaders is that you're charged by one beatstick instead of two.  The sad truth is that I only need one.  If you let me get my Belial squad or my knight squad stuck in against the target of my choice on the bottom of turn two with supporting fire from at least one crusader plus two twinlinked tactical terminator squads...it's over. 

[Onisuzume]

 

 

 

 

The answer is the unkillable land raider. Two of them, actually. Field Belial with an assault terminator squad in a dedicated crusader alongside a knight squad with a dedicated crusader and with a prescience libby toting a PFG on a bike hiding behind belial's ride, but close enough to shield the knight tank.

Sorry, but I want to disagree with that considering that it'd be about 2/3rds of my points spread between 1 squad and 2 vehicles, not even counting the required troop choices (Belial would, of course, go with Knights or command squad).

With the added troop choice minimums, I'm left with just enough points to get a TLAC Mortis.

 

While going for footsloggers from 1st turn I'd have a well-rounded list with 26 terminators, including Fortitude Standard.

 

 

 

I respect your decision, but I'm not sold that 26 terminators that are being shot at on turn one by everything in the enemy inventory is a better idea than two turns of presenting no target except for two copies of the toughest vehicle in the game barring superheavies and titans (maybe just titans!) for fully 1/3 of the enemy's game, and then still having 21-22 terminators to your 26, all of them presented en masse and un-shot-at at the point of my choosing on turn two.  I don't know what points level you play, but I only play 1850 and (rarely) 1750...26 termies sounds like at least 1750, though...

 

 

I make my army lists assuming the standard 1.5k points.

At which point you'd have only around 16 terminators.

Also, it sounds as if you assume cover doesn't exist, and my list assumes the SoF.

So even an enemy forcing tons of saves will find it hard to get through due to FNP.

Back in 4th and 5th (I think) footslogging DW was one of the more competitive pure-DW lists from what I remember.

Great....that anecdote is about as relevant as the time that

Once saw a firewarrior (3rd edition iirc) kill a C:SM terminator in close combat.

Still about as relavant.

[elphilo]

While I haven't played the dual Land Raider list versus Tau yet, I don't know how well it will do. One piece of equipment can negate all your hard work on hiding that libby (or Techmarine if you choose to take that instead) and that is the Smart Missile System. Homing is probably the worst thing that has happened to this game since AP3 Starcannons. So while everyone is saying you need Line of Sight breaking terrain/hide behind a Land Raider, Tau players will just laugh at you and still shoot you without having to even see you

Tau have really thrown a wrench into the meta. If you build to go against them specifically you're not too good against anyone else, if you don't build with them in mind, they will wipe the floor with you.

LOL...I play tau. SMS isn't all that you think it is, especially if the opponent knows what units have SMS...just like with hive guard (the other known-to-me los-free shooter). It's 24" range. As long as you're not targeting the SMS unit itself, it's not a threat to something hiding behind the land raider. Add the length of the tank to the charge threat range of the unit inside the tank, and suddenly 24" is really a little bit too short to attack a threat behind the tank. And if you are able to...you're talking about a T5 3+ multiwound character. He's a big boy, he can take a little incidental shooting. There's never going to be enough SMS in range to torrent him.

Honestly I think you're not giving Smart Missile Systems the respect it deserves. If you're only presenting me 3 targets (2 land Raiders and 1 dude on bike) I'm going to try and take out that biker so its easier to take out those Land Raiders. And don't say they'll be out of range. You're heading towards my lines at break neck speed and playing as Tau I have chumballed for all that overwatch goodness. You're going to be in range turn 2 of at least 3-6. Thats 12-24 S5 shots at you. Granted it'll probably be at BS3, but they're twin linked. And god help you if they manage to get a marker light or two on you. And before you say "Great! That means you're not shooting at my land raiders!" They aren't because people are spamming the missiles, so they can't really do that. Or if they aren't and actually take something other than missile spam (Hammerhead/rail cannon on broadsides) then they are STILL trying to take out your dude on the bike because it'll be that much easier to destroy your land raiders. Also we aren't considering the fact of the Crisis Suits with fusion blasters having the possibility of not scattering, which is complete bull . Look another ability that is really cool, made Deathwing really feared and then taken away, by the same dude who wrote our codex. . . .

You're also not giving enough respect to Supporting Fire with an Ethereal present. You might kill a firewarrior squad or two on turn two but then when you charge, there is a good chance you'll lose all those guys. Trust me it has happened to me multiple times (and that was only with 2 squads overwatching me, dice gods did not favor me that day).

To top it all off, the things that you should be afraid of are pretty mobile, with their jump move in the assault phase. Granted, you get into melee Tau will crumble, but it is proving a really difficult thing to do. The 2 Land Raider list might be in a better position because of the fact that people aren't bringing those weapons that can reliably take down AV14. But who knows what will happen here with the speed of GW putting out these new codices. Maybe with the release of the 6th edition Space Marines people will be forced to take those heavy weapons again? Or maybe a Supplement Salamanders will completely negate Heavy Vehicles?

All I'm saying is I don't think Deathwing (in any list or form) can be really competitive in the current environment. Tau have thrown this huge wrench in the meta and has said "deal with it." And who knows how Eldar will change it, since they're so new their tricks haven't been fully exposed. But I can tell you now, MEQ/TEQ will be crying because of their speed and their pseudo rending.

Its a shame, because I really love your 2 Land Raider list (and since you quoted me in your signature we all know it to be true ), I just don't think it'll be all that viable. I'm sure you'll definitely win some games versus some opponents. But every time I have played it I've won by the skin of my teeth, or I lost because overwhelming firepower eventually took out my scoring squads. And that has always been the problem. Overwhelming firepower usually wins versus the Deathwing

[Hellios]

I don't think Eldar will make a great change (they will be a little bit more competitive) but I would hate to go against a mobile eldar army (not all eldar armies are as mobile as what I'm thinking of) with such a small army (Double raider) on a 4X6 board. As an Eldar player I would pray that I can just deploy along the back edge of the board... Split my force in two on each edge of the board (No out flanking terminators right... right!?!?!?). You now have two targets to charge at (wouldn't work as well on a 4X4)... Hit one and your away from the other, go for both and I'll just try a bind one of your forces up with as little as possible and use my mobility to bring most of my army onto one half of your army. Kill it, turn around and kill the other half.

 

Being honest I wouldn't want to go against half of the decent eldar lists, run by a decent player with any deathwing force. Some people say Eldar are great at kill Orks or Guard (and they can), but I've always found elite armies easier to deal with.

 

Obviously this isn't a fool proof plan and I would expect a good player to give me some trouble. I would however (assuming deep striking squads don't make a mess out of me) imagine it to be an uphill struggle for DW.

 

As for deep striking fusion Tau... I don't think he is worried... If he destroys the transports by turn 2... The transports have already done their job... The short range of the fusion blasters also leaves those suits at some risk of being assaulted. That being said I'm not saying this would be an easy fight for DW, or even in their favor.

[Smurfalypse]

Most Tau players also run solo Crisis Suits with Fusion to get close to heavy vehicles and kill them. Duo Land Raider build is not going to do well vs a Tau army, you need to look elsewhere to find an "answer". 

 

Also the homing missiles are insane, not as much vs MEQ but very overboard vs anyone with a base low save. Also has enough shots to take out smaller units of marines or in this case, a long guy on a bike (he is toast, plain and simple).

[march10k]

I make my army lists assuming the standard 1.5k points.

At which point you'd have only around 16 terminators.

Also, it sounds as if you assume cover doesn't exist, and my list assumes the SoF.

So even an enemy forcing tons of saves will find it hard to get through due to FNP.

Back in 4th and 5th (I think) footslogging DW was one of the more competitive pure-DW lists from what I remember.

 

That's fairly arrogant.  1500 points might be normal where you live, but calling it "standard," when in fact many places default to something else, is incorrect.  How about "at which point I wouldn't play DW?"  1500 points is too low to make a viable DW list.

 

I don't assume that cover doesn't exist, why would you think that?  I do assume that cover won't matter much in my lists, because my invulnerable save is equal to most cover saves, and my terminators are either mounted in crusaders or have powerfists, so it doesn't affect the assault phase much, either...but I do field a heavy flamer in my mounted assault squad precisely because I might have to charge a horde in cover.  Roasting eight or so models before wading into a sea of bodies can make all the difference!

 

Yes, footsloggers were extremely competitive before 6th...because they consisted of nothing but belial and as many thundernator squads with CMLs as you could possibly pack into a list.  Now you pay a points premium per model for the thundernators and other new books have answers to thundernator spam.  And FNP was a lot better when it was 4+. 

 

 

You're heading towards my lines at break neck speed and playing as Tau I have chumballed for all that overwatch goodness. You're going to be in range turn 2 of at least 3-6.

Ephilio...if you're killing my libby on turn two, that's one turn too late, I already got my critical first turn flat out move.  Not that I'm convinced that you are, mind you.  I, not you, pick my target, and my avenue of approach.  If you want to ensure that I'm forced to bring the libby into range of the missiles, you have to anticipate not just my tactics, but my target, and then deploy perfectly to eliminate my ability to eliminate or reduce the number of SMS shooting at the libby on turn 2.  That's a fairly tall order.  But getting back to it being too late.  If you manage to shoot enough SMS at the libby to kill him, you still have two venerable crusaders to deal with...and with the nerf to broadsides...that means melta.  And a suicide melta suit is still only going to get one result on the damage table.  And I get two chances to make that result not be "kablooey" (assuming you can roll at least a 7 on 2D6, which is not 100% likely).  And then there's the second tank that you didn't shoot at with that suit.  If the suit even drops on turn 2.  Killing the libby, if you can, gets you a VP for first blood, but it hardly ruins my day.  (and you won't get those markerlight hits, the crusaders form a wedge and the libby tucks himself in between them when there's a LOS threat from the side)

 

 

You're also not giving enough respect to Supporting Fire with an Ethereal present. You might kill a firewarrior squad or two on turn two but then when you charge, there is a good chance you'll lose all those guys.

 

Depends...I get to shoot first, with four twinlinked assault cannons and a whole raftload of bolter fire...after I lay the heavy flamer template as advantageously as possible.  If I'm facing six squads of FW, that means that there's a lot of other stuff I'm not facing.  If it's 2-4 squads, it takes a statistical anomaly for me to be in any serious trouble after I get done thinning their ranks with shooting.  I really do like how GW made it a lot riskier to assault the tau without actually making the tau worth a crap in assault, but after my one good shooting phase, charging with 12 terminators, half of them T5, I like my chances.  But I do acknowledge that enough fire warriors will make me pay a really really steep price in blood.  Hell, there's a reason I own 72 of the little bastards. 

 

 

The 2 Land Raider list might be in a better position because of the fact that people aren't bringing those weapons that can reliably take down AV14.

That's actually precisely the point...an all-comers list might be able to handle two land raiders...but two land raiders with the venerable upgrade and a 4+ invulnerable save, and only one of them needs to make it past turn one point five for my plan to go off as intended? 

 

As an Eldar player I would pray that I can just deploy along the back edge of the board... Split my force in two on each edge of the board (No out flanking terminators right... right!?!?!?). You now have two targets to charge at.

 

Oh, pretty please, do that!!!  I'm going second, so I get to pick which one I want to go after.  My entire army against half of yours?  Sounds like a winner, especially if you don't have fire dragons in both halves.  I'll just go after the other one, and there's not much you can do to take out my tanks.  I will definitely be charging with 2x6 terminators on the bottom of turn 2, then, after unleashing 4 TL asscannons, 4 hurribolters, 8 TL stormbolters, a heavy flamer, and belial's stormbolter.  And against eldar, my knights probably won't even need to smite.  Leaving me plenty of time to turn around and start worrying about objectives with only half an army facing my full one.  Why would I split my forces and go after both of yours???  That would violate about half of the principles of war (a really bad idea), and there's no need to table you, I only have to beat you (DW players learn fast that they don't have enough models to table anyone, LOL)

 

[Onisuzume]

That's fairly arrogant. 1500 points might be normal where you live, but calling it "standard," when in fact many places default to something else, is incorrect. How about "at which point I wouldn't play DW?" 1500 points is too low to make a viable DW list.

I can grab almost any of the white dwarfs I got (roughly #250-300), find a typical battle report, and expect to see the point totals being 1.5k.

Been like that for at least a decade or so from what I remember.

So I could hardly call that arrogant.

I don't assume that cover doesn't exist, why would you think that? I do assume that cover won't matter much in my lists, because my invulnerable save is equal to most cover saves

The LoS blocking ones, of course.

Yes, footsloggers were extremely competitive before 6th...because they consisted of nothing but belial and as many thundernator squads with CMLs as you could possibly pack into a list.

Pretty certain that Lemariont almost won a (local?) tournament with shooty DW, all footsloggers. Barely any hammer in sight from what I recall.

[elphilo]

Ephilio...if you're killing my libby on turn two, that's one turn too late, I already got my critical first turn flat out move. Not that I'm convinced that you are, mind you. I, not you, pick my target, and my avenue of approach. If you want to ensure that I'm forced to bring the libby into range of the missiles, you have to anticipate not just my tactics, but my target, and then deploy perfectly to eliminate my ability to eliminate or reduce the number of SMS shooting at the libby on turn 2. That's a fairly tall order. But getting back to it being too late. If you manage to shoot enough SMS at the libby to kill him, you still have two venerable crusaders to deal with...and with the nerf to broadsides...that means melta. And a suicide melta suit is still only going to get one result on the damage table. And I get two chances to make that result not be "kablooey" (assuming you can roll at least a 7 on 2D6, which is not 100% likely). And then there's the second tank that you didn't shoot at with that suit. If the suit even drops on turn 2. Killing the libby, if you can, gets you a VP for first blood, but it hardly ruins my day. (and you won't get those markerlight hits, the crusaders form a wedge and the libby tucks himself in between them when there's a LOS threat from the side)

You do realize that the SMS is 30" right? If I have 3 Broadsides with HYMP and SMS and you're coming at my line as fast as possible (so 18" towards me) you're going to be in range of them. I played a Tau list yesterday (I know off to chamber 42 I'll go after this, but I can't say no to mecha ) and while I only had 4 available to me, they covered a good chunk of the board and I had chumballed up in a corner!

So I take back my turn 2 statement, I'll probably get that Libby turn 1!

Depends...I get to shoot first, with four twinlinked assault cannons and a whole raftload of bolter fire...after I lay the heavy flamer template as advantageously as possible. If I'm facing six squads of FW, that means that there's a lot of other stuff I'm not facing. If it's 2-4 squads, it takes a statistical anomaly for me to be in any serious trouble after I get done thinning their ranks with shooting. I really do like how GW made it a lot riskier to assault the tau without actually making the tau worth a crap in assault, but after my one good shooting phase, charging with 12 terminators, half of them T5, I like my chances. But I do acknowledge that enough fire warriors will make me pay a really really steep price in blood. Hell, there's a reason I own 72 of the little bastards.

Dude, fire warriors are super cheap and if you're not taking a minimum of 4 squads with an Ethereal (to help steady the back end), you're doing something wrong. The problem with the Tau codex is they get everything for an insanely low price, only their skyfire upgrade is expensive and borderlines the "do I really want to take this upgrade?" And you're assuming that they aren't taking the Skyshield landing pad! That thing is borderline broken good, its 25 points cheaper than an ADL with Quadgun and gives you a save you can take pretty much all the time. With the prevalence of ignores cover weapons (which came about because of bikers/armies sitting behind the ADL) the Skyshield use in gunline armies is on the rise!

That's actually precisely the point...an all-comers list might be able to handle two land raiders...but two land raiders with the venerable upgrade and a 4+ invulnerable save, and only one of them needs to make it past turn one point five for my plan to go off as intended?

After playing one game with Tau yesterday, I honestly think a TAC Tau list could destroy the two Land Raider list. They're going to have a crisis suit team with some sort of fusion and plasma combination to take care of heavy vehicles/infantry. The ability to deep strike, destroy the Land Raider then Jet Pack away will make it extremely hard for you to catch up with them. And don't forget the riptide, with it's Ion Accelerator, it spells trouble for Deathwing.

Like I said before, I'm sure you'll do great against some opponent. I just think Tau will make any Deathwing list struggle and in a competitive environment you're going to see a TON of Tau players. Though you'll also see a TON of Daemon players to offset the Tau players, since Tau really struggle against fast horde armies.

Its a shame, I really love the Deathwing (they were my first army), I just think they're a little too expensive for what they do. Unless you Deep Strike them you waste a lot of their special rules. And if you're not playing against Chaos there are points wasted right there for Preferred Enemy. But I suppose that can be said about any unit that has preferred enemy. The problem is Deathwing is really more expensive than it should be and other things are cheaper than it should be.

[Grand Master Raziel]

March, regarding the list you suggested:

 

1: What about using a Techmarine on that bike instead of a Librarian?  The Techie can carry the PFG and maybe keep the LRCs in the fight longer, fixing lost hull points and/or disabling hits (specifically Immobilized results). 

 

2: I suppose if you're going all-DW you wouldn't do this, but why not include a small squad of Scouts wt camo cloaks to be objective minders?  That way, you don't need to have a valuable DWT squad legging it back to reclaim a home objective.  If you take the Techie as well, you can use Bolster Defenses on the terrain you've got them sitting in to further improve their cover save, potentially to 2+.  They might even prove useful by plinking away with sniper rifles.

[Hellios]

Oh, pretty please, do that!!!  I'm going second, so I get to pick which one I want to go after.  My entire army against half of yours?  Sounds like a winner, especially if you don't have fire dragons in both halves.  I'll just go after the other one, and there's not much you can do to take out my tanks.  I will definitely be charging with 2x6 terminators on the bottom of turn 2, then, after unleashing 4 TL asscannons, 4 hurribolters, 8 TL stormbolters, a heavy flamer, and belial's stormbolter.  And against eldar, my knights probably won't even need to smite.  Leaving me plenty of time to turn around and start worrying about objectives with only half an army facing my full one.  Why would I split my forces and go after both of yours???  That would violate about half of the principles of war (a really bad idea), and there's no need to table you, I only have to beat you (DW players learn fast that they don't have enough models to table anyone, LOL)

 

You won't be going against half my army... You will be in reach of half my army while fighting all of it. My aim isn't to split your forces, but to make the front as large as possible. If you spread out I'll pick you off (which you said you won't do), if you focus on one part of my army... Half of my army can shoot you with impunity, the other half may be lost in the end but you will pay in blood for each unit you kill. The great thing about mech (as you should know) is Storm bolters? Don't care, Hurricane bolters? Don't care Heavy flamer? Don't care, Assault Cannons? I might care.

 

Yeah you might charge on turn 2 if your Land Raiders are moving, kill a unit... or 2... big woop.

[march10k]

 

Oh, pretty please, do that!!!  I'm going second, so I get to pick which one I want to go after.  My entire army against half of yours?  Sounds like a winner, especially if you don't have fire dragons in both halves.  I'll just go after the other one, and there's not much you can do to take out my tanks.  I will definitely be charging with 2x6 terminators on the bottom of turn 2, then, after unleashing 4 TL asscannons, 4 hurribolters, 8 TL stormbolters, a heavy flamer, and belial's stormbolter.  And against eldar, my knights probably won't even need to smite.  Leaving me plenty of time to turn around and start worrying about objectives with only half an army facing my full one.  Why would I split my forces and go after both of yours???  That would violate about half of the principles of war (a really bad idea), and there's no need to table you, I only have to beat you (DW players learn fast that they don't have enough models to table anyone, LOL)

 

You won't be going against half my army... You will be in reach of half my army while fighting all of it. My aim isn't to split your forces, but to make the front as large as possible. If you spread out I'll pick you off (which you said you won't do), if you focus on one part of my army... Half of my army can shoot you with impunity, the other half may be lost in the end but you will pay in blood for each unit you kill. The great thing about mech (as you should know) is Storm bolters? Don't care, Hurricane bolters? Don't care Heavy flamer? Don't care, Assault Cannons? I might care.

 

Yeah you might charge on turn 2 if your Land Raiders are moving, kill a unit... or 2... big woop.

ROFL....yeah...you're castled in two corners, but all of your weapons have 72" range, right?   Unless you have fire dragons in both halves, there's a 99% chance that not one, but both of my crusaders are "moving," which means I'm not killing "a unit or two," I'm attacking half of your list with all of mine.  4 twinlinked assault cannons, four hurribolters, 8 twinlinked stormbolters, a heavy flamer, and belial's special stormbolter, followed by six knights and five assault terminators led by belial...that doesn't "kill a unit... or 2... big woop," that kills or guts whatever the hell I want when I'm facing half a list.  You don't care about losing half of your army on the bottom of turn two? 

 

 

 

 

1: What about using a Techmarine on that bike instead of a Librarian?

 

He's not that much cheaper, doesn't have access to prescience, doesn't have servitors to make repairs reliable, and doesn't have the wounds of a libby.  Trust me, the techy was my first instinct, too, since I had him inside the tank with servitors before the nerf!

 

 

2: I suppose if you're going all-DW you wouldn't do this, but why not include a small squad of Scouts wt camo cloaks to be objective minders?

Not a terrible idea, but at what cost?  What are you taking out of the list to add the scouts?  I was a big lover of basic pistol and sword scouts when they were elites (an underused FOC slot in a DW army!), five of them outflanking with 16 S4 attacks (or 5 kraks) on the charge anywhere within 12" of the board edge...and 2/3 of the time, you get the board edge of choice?  All for 80 points?  A bargain!  Since they can't charge on outflanking, they suck in that role now.  I guess they'd be okay in the role you're thinking of, though.

 

 

You do realize that the SMS is 30" right?

AAAAAARGH!!!! No, I was thinking 24, which is doubly embarrasing for a tau player!  Okay, SMS is a problem for the libby.  Still taking him in an all-comers list, and I still think that at least one crusader lives to see turn three, which is all I need.  After that, they're a convenience, not a necessity.

 

 

So I take back my turn 2 statement, I'll probably get that Libby turn 1!

Nope, still turn 2.  We're 24" apart to start, the libby is behind a land raider that is fully inside my deployment zone, and I'm taking the bottom of the turn :-P

 

 

Dude, fire warriors are super cheap and if you're not taking a minimum of 4 squads with an Ethereal (to help steady the back end), you're doing something wrong.

As you said, everything in C:T is dirt cheap.  And the prejudice against the lowly shas persists, at least in my area.  I love showing up with 72 FW, but I'm the only one, and it's funny to see the same @#$%&^ who talks smack about how FW are the worst infantry in the game then calls "cheese" when I spam them.

 

 

I can grab almost any of the white dwarfs I got (roughly #250-300), find a typical battle report, and expect to see the point totals being 1.5k.

Odd...the two most recent ones in my library are January and February of this year.  The 40k batrep in January had NO points value (and didn't have even points on each side), and the February one had no 40k batrep...all of which is beside the point.  The point is that your argument is a complete non sequitur.  "I often see 1.5k batreps in WD" in no way establishes 1.5k games as a global standard, even if the batreps in WD were at some point in the past uniformly 1500 points.  Having played in eleven of the fifty United States plus Cologne and Tokyo in the last 10 years, I can count the number of 1500 point games I've played without taking my socks off.

 

 

Pretty certain that Lemariont almost won a (local?) tournament with shooty DW, all footsloggers. Barely any hammer in sight from what I recall.

Pretty certain that a single half-remembered data point from God knows what edition provides precious little support to your thesis that footslogging terminators are the way forward for 6th edition pure DW lists.

 

I'm not saying that DW are the shizznet and all else is suxorz, I just responded to the suggestion by the OP that DW are the weakest of the three DA flavors in the current meta by describing the success that I've had with them, and this flamestorm of hating on DW errupted.  golly gee happened?  DW used to be revered for being a really tough army to win with (albiet less sucky than green or black DA), now they're hated...for being a really tough army to win with??!?

[elphilo]

I'm not saying that DW are the shizznet and all else is suxorz, I just responded to the suggestion by the OP that DW are the weakest of the three DA flavors in the current meta by describing the success that I've had with them, and this flamestorm of hating on DW errupted.  golly gee happened?  DW used to be revered for being a really tough army to win with (albiet less sucky than green or black DA), now they're hated...for being a really tough army to win with??!?

Its not that they're hated because they aren't easy to win with, hell thats what attracted me to them in the first place. Its that they are probably the weakest "pure" army in our codex because of their points cost and the increase of mass shooting. This edition really emphasises quantity over quality, especially in the shooting phase. Like I said, I think your dual Land Raider list is probably in the best position to take in a competitive environment because of the lack of anti heavy tank on the table. But I think you're going to run into a few TAC lists that will give you a run for your money, which will be Tau. So the meta will see a rise of Tau and then a rise of Daemons (flying circus most likely), because they're the hard counter to Tau. What does that mean to Deathwing? It'll be twice as hard to win because Deathwing emphasises quality over quantity.

[march10k]

I respect what you're saying, I'm just not sure how much it means. I wouldn't call a battle company list a "pure list," even if it happens not to have any DW or RW units, it's kind of the standard from which you deviate when you go for a "pure" RW or DW list. So to me it sounds like you're saying that "between DW and RW, DW has been surpassed by RW as the more ("most" implies more than two choices) powerful alternative to the baseline list." I couldn't agree more, RW got a MASSIVE boost. But I don't think DW is worse than before in any absolute sense, it's only "as compared to the other flavor" that it's now "worse" than before.

 

I know that torrenting is a problem in 6th...it was getting to be one towards the end of 5th. But it's no more or less a problem now than it was before the new DA codex dropped, except in the fact that tau and eldar basic troops have gotten cheaper. The fact is, however, that DA players were talking bad about DW immediately after C: DA dropped, before tau and eldar did, so you can't really attribute the bad feelings about DW to fire warriors and guardians. DW got better with the new codex, yet people's opinion of them got worse. The only explanation is that they are being evaluated in comparison to RW, not in an independent objective way. Saying "you shouldn't play DW because RW are better" is like saying "you shouldn't play DW because nidzilla is better." It's the wrong answer to the wrong question. The question shouldn't ever be "is DW the most competitive army in the 40k system?" The answer to that has never been "yes," The proper question is "Can DW be competitive?"

 

And the answer to that has not changed in any meaningful way. You still have to identify and eliminate the 1-2 critical units that make the enemy army work, then hang on to 1-2 OBJs for dear life while trying to contest enough other OBJs to eke out a win. You'll never table anyone playing DW, and you'll rarely own more than three OBJs. You'll always wreck face in melee, and always cringe at the start of the enemy shooting phase. So you'll always be looking for ways to get stuck in sooner and minimize enemy shooting.

 

Sure, there are more enemy small arms out there tossing out bucketloads of dice in the shooting phase than there were a few years ago. At the same time, you get a few offsets. You can DWA half of your army on turn one with twinlinked shooting, and you can split off your heavies to a separate target. That makes for one hell of an alpha strike. You can even drop one unit of ten scoring terminators with two heavy weapons anywhere you want with impunity. You also laugh at power weapons in an environment where people are afraid to take powerfists for fear of facing a power sword in a challenge. You can do as I do, and field damnably hard to kill crusaders to deliver your melee termies un-shot-at on turn two, and get the best of both worlds by deciding to have your tactical terminators arrive on that same turn two...make it the bottom, so fully one third of the enemy's opportunity to torrent you goes by the wayside.

 

Honestly, doesn't denying the enemy the first two turns of anti-infantry shooting more than offset any reduction in the price of basic (torrenting) infantry? Assuming that turn one shooting and turn five shooting are equally valuable (they aren't!), you'd need to get 50% more torrenty infantry for the same points just to catch up to the amount of "opportunity to kill" that my tactic denies...and that doesn't even take into account that some of your units won't be there any more when you finally do get to torrent me, on turn 3. All else being equal, you'd have to cut fire warriors to 5 points per model to offset my shenanigans. Does that make me auto-win? Of course not, it's still an uphill "I don't have enough models on the board" battle, but it's a lot less hard than it used to be.

 

Yes, RW is now better than DW in a lot of ways. But DW didn't get bad, it got better. Just not by as huge an amount as RW did.

 

/edit/

 

PS: Don't think I'm anti-bike...just look at my avatar.

[elphilo]

While I agree that the Deathwing have gotten better (and how can they not with all those nice new rules they got), we're going to have to agree to disagree on their viability in a competitive environment. Their points went up for abilities they can only use against a certain army (which is being taken more and more as an ally instead of a main detachment) and if you don't deep strike you're wasting a few points there as well. And in the age of dirt cheap everything, you really can't bring something to a competitive environment that isn't really points efficient. And unfortunately that is where the Deathwing sit at the moment.

 

When the new codex first came out I thought Deathwing would be really viable, like they have been in the past. Yes you were going to have an uphill battle from the start, but you were going to fight for that W, which is half the fun. Then the next few codices were released, and they were the ones to change my mind on them in the current meta. Dirt cheap fast Daemons, dirt cheap dakkaing Tau and now to add to that list dirt cheap fast dakkaing Eldar. Yes it'll be hard to win just like in the previous editions, but some of these are borderlining on the impossible. If your aim in a tournament is to roll some dice and have a few games, then Deathwing will be viable. But if your aim is to actually win the majority of these games, you might want to look elsewhere, thats all I'm saying.

 

This codex really should have been called Codex: Ravenwing with the buffs that they got, which they needed. Last edition they were extremely points heavy for what they did. Looking at forum's Army Lists reviews (like Dakka Dakka) you'll see a plethora of Ravenwing/Crusader lists and in almost every Deathwing list you'll see something along the lines of "this list will just really give your opponent a W, why not take Ravenwing instead?" As a Deathwing player it frustrates me to no end that this is the current state of the Deathwing.

 

[[TA]Typher]

With all due respect I don't think the Deathwing have gotten better in this edition.

 

What new things have they acquired?

 

Vengeance Strike? Hardly overpowering, with the small amount of shooting a DW army has. Couple this with the necessity to sometimes mix in a Storm-shield here and there to save you from Low AP guns and it's effectiveness gets worse. Plus lets not forget that a DW Term with CC weapons gains zero benefit from it even though they paid for it.

 

Inner Circle? Again hardly useful. Sure if the only opponent you play is Chaos Marines this will be amazing. Sadly this isn't the case for 99% of the people that play DW. This ability hardly makes this edition better than the last.

 

DWA? After the 50% ruling this isn't really better than the last edition at all. Sure you can come in on Turn 2 instead of just turn 1, which is helpful, but with the 50% rule still in place it's usefullness is NOT better then 5th Edition. DS your whole Army was much better IMHO.

 

Lack of Sgt Lout outs hurts us in this edition. HAving a SGT with a SS/TH would be much better for Duels.

 

TH/SS option was FREE. As it stands now we pay for skills that CC terms don't benefit from.

 

The only really winner here is split fire, which, while not overpowering does help with the lack of firepower in our units. Shooting armor with a CML while mowing down infantry really helps.

 

Plus you have to factor in the meta in 5th edition was much more favorable to the DW.

 

In short, although we might have gotten a few minor boosts to the DW it didn't match the boost that 6th ED rules and other codex's received, which would clearly make the last edition DW more competitive and better for it's meta. With all that said I will continue playing the DW because I love them. I will however, sadly, turn away some matches with certain armies, just because getting slaughtered with little to no chance doesn't make for a very fun time. I don't play tourneys and often make sure games are close just to add suspense and enjoyment to both parties. It sounds horrible to say it, but I play for fun and watching armies crush me due to bolstered game mechanics and rules that they received and I didn't

[march10k]

 

Vengeance Strike? Hardly overpowering, with the small amount of shooting a DW army has.

 

Ah, that depends on perspective.  It's not intended to magically morph DW into the premier shooting army of 40k or anything.  But, carefully applied, it does provide temporary,   local fire superiority.  It's up to you to make it suffice.  It's certainly not an "easy button," but it does, along with the power sword nerf, make tactical terminators relevant again.  As long as the enemy doesn't have the interceptor rule, it lets you get one really heavy round of shooting in without the risk of being shot at first.  I combine two VS assault cannons and 8 VS stormbolters with two crusaders for "enough" firepower in support of my first charge.

 

 

Plus lets not forget that a DW Term with CC weapons gains zero benefit from it even though they paid for it.

 

That's not quite honest.  At the individual model level, it's true...but at the squad level?  That DW termie with CC weapons almost certainly has a squadmate with a CML or AC.  The model with the heavy weapon didn't pay a point more for VS than a stormbolter model did.  I think that twinlinking your heavy weapon justifies the points cost (assuming you can tell me how many points VS costs?) for the entire squad, especially with split fire.

 

 

TH/SS option was FREE.

 

Are you suggesting that that was fair??!?  It was cheese.  There's a very good reason that people built entire armies of thundernators.

 

 

 

Plus you have to factor in the meta in 5th edition was much more favorable to the DW.

 

In what way?  In 5th edition, everything that moved was bristling with melta weapons and power swords.  That's not particularly favorable! 

 

 

You're also forgetting a few things.  The BGB changed almost simultaneously, so you can't really count melee weapons having an AP as an "old book" thing, for example.  The relative nerf that everyone who doesn't have an assault ramp got (pretty much rendering transports useless) makes us one of VERY few viable melee armies in a game where melee armies were the rule.  That's actually the reason for the trend towards shooting, by the way.  It's not that people like it, it's that taking two turns to get out of a transport makes assault armies not an option for some codexes. 

 

So instead, they take shooty infantry, which (even before GW figured out that lowering the points per model results in more sales) is cheaper than assaulty infantry, which means more bodies with crappier offense, which then feeds on itself till it becomes a contest of who can bring the most models to the table (guard wins, flat out.  Nine griffons for 675 points to remove job lots of enemy hordes, then ungodly numbers of flashlights fortified with FRFSRF to drag down anything that laughs at AP4, plus a vendetta to pop tanks).  That's fine, as far as it goes, but it reduces two things.  In an environment where everybody's doing that, and where HP make most vehicles unuseable, people are less and less prepared with each passing day to deal with my pair of crusaders, at least in my meta.  They're also not prepared to handle melee combat, smugly confident that they have enough small arms to torrent multiwound TEQs off the board the instant they break cover. 

 

Sure, I could go with the dakkapole list instead.  It looks better on paper, given the meta.  The problem is that other armies do that list better, AND it's what they expect, and therefore have a plan to defeat.  But combining the tank they can't kill (fast enough) with the melee unit they have no plan to defeat, it's the perfect asymetric threat.  DA can't win the "hordes of cheap bodies" game no matter how many tactical marines we field.  Instead of trying to match enemy strengths, we should play to our own, which are speed (RW) and power (DW).  If you prefer the ravenwing route, by all means go that way.  But no list we build will change the fundamental fact that (nearly?) every non-MEQ codex is going to be able to generate more bodies and more guns than us, so chasing after that is a lost cause.

[Azrael Turnbull]

In my opinion, March10k is speaking directly to the point. The double Land Raider with Power Generator list intrigued me, so I gave it a few game tests. It feels very 'tough' for a Deathwing list, at least until you unload. However, as March10k said, by then, it's usually too late.

 

The advantage I feel the Dakka Pole lists have is that they can go up against any other list. It's not absolutely guaranteed to be the stronger army, but I feel safe fielding it agains Nids, Orks, Marines, Tau... No matter the game plan my opponent is using. At least with my Dakka Pole list, anyway; hence my current 11 game winning sreak. However, it could be that my usual opponents are simply bad at adapting.

 

March10k, your Deathwing list is strong, but do you have tactical advice for when the army you're up again plays your game better than you do? I.e. You're against an elitist Swarmlord, Prime, Shrikes & Genestealer Tyranid list, or you're against another Terminator army (Deathwing or Space Wolves) that have twice the amount of units as you? Do you have a new formation and approach for thse opponents, or do you accept that they have the upper hand and stick to your original plan and aim to just have fun?

[Hellios]

March. I'm not sure I've described what I intended to do very well. I didn't really intend to castle at all. In fact my whole plan was to use the Eldar's superior mobility to split you or pincer you. I get how your list works. I would hate to face it on a 4X4, but with Eldar or Dark Eldar (assuming I have a mobile list) on a 6X4 I think the various Eldar would have an advantage if both players are at the same level. Dark Eldar might be more numerous and have more sacrifice units, but they would also be far more vulnerable to your ranged weapons.

[BigGumbo]

With all due respect I don't think the Deathwing have gotten better in this edition.

 

...

 

In short, although we might have gotten a few minor boosts to the DW it didn't match the boost that 6th ED rules and other codex's received, which would clearly make the last edition DW more competitive and better for it's meta. With all that said I will continue playing the DW because I love them. I will however, sadly, turn away some matches with certain armies, just because getting slaughtered with little to no chance doesn't make for a very fun time. I don't play tourneys and often make sure games are close just to add suspense and enjoyment to both parties. It sounds horrible to say it, but I play for fun and watching armies crush me due to bolstered game mechanics and rules that they received and I didn't

I just want to clarify something: is your issue that the new-Codex DW don't seem to be worth the 1 point per model increase over the old-Codex DW; that DW don't seem to be worth the 4 points per model premium over Codex:SM termies; or both? 

 

To me, it's the latter question that's the more important as the old codex is dead and gone: there's no point dwelling on the past.

 

So we have to ask ourselves the following: is the addition of Fearless, Preferred Enemy: CSM; Vengeful Strike; Deathwing Assault; Split Fire; and the flexibility to mix ranged and CC weapons in the same squad worth 4 points per model? I agree that some of these are situational in terms of their absolute effectiveness but options do have a value in and of themselves - you might choose not to exercise those options, or choose to use them in a different way from the next guy, but that doesn't negate the inherent value that they have.

 

Personally I think it's a no-brainer that the suite of special rules that we get is worth the extra points over vanilla Termies. A number of my friends play SM from time to time and every one of them is envious of Fearless terminators, to add a turn of twin-linked shooting, the ability to choose when some or all of your Deep Strikers arrive with certainty and the ability to shoot tanks and infantry with the same squad in the same turn to the base benefit of Fearless makes our Termies a steal. Enough to overcome the model-count disadvantage that a pure DW army faces? Probably not, but in my view that's the wrong question to be asking. It's unreasonable to expect any possible army build to be competitive against any possible opponent. A DW army is a highly specialised beast, to be played for the challenge, the fluff and the fun of it, not because it's an auto-win.

 

I haven't seen (although that may be because I haven't been looking in the right place, so am happy to be set straight) any Daemon players crying that their codex is rubbish because, say, a pure Khorne army isn't as competitive against all-comers as it used to be and that's the same sort of thing that we're talking about here: one specific build, not any build at all.

 

Also, the 50% reserves point needs to be taken in context: firstly, no-one can 100% reserve any more, so to complain that the DW have got worse in the new Codex because we can't have an all-DS army is just wrong; secondly, the fact that we can DWA 100% of our reserved DW units means that you can still DWA exactly the same proportion of your army in this edition, with the new Codex, as you could in the last edition, with the old codex. Plus you get a choice of when this happens: how is that not an absolute improvement to Deathwing Assault?