Flamers

[montegue]

Greetings, 

 

I've been thinking about my grey hunter loadouts. I'm struggling to find reasons not to take flamers in basically every group. Plasma hurts you, melta has a short range and is good for armor, but we have anti armor in our Long Fangs, and they're better at it. 

Flamers make charging us that much more risky. Flamers are assault. They cause many autohits on the turn just before we charge. They ignore cover. They're strong enough to threaten things like Tau, and force saves on MEQ models. Lots of saves, before we ever pull the trigger on a bolt pistol. 

They don't work against AV10 models like Plasma and Melta do, I'll grant. But our bolters work on those. 

I lost against an Ork army tonight, and his combi burners kept my TWC from charging his bike death star. Just the threat of them. In retrospect, I should have charged anyway and delt with the D3 hits instead of his template placements. That being said, they were an amazing threat and produced excellent results for him. 

I'm thinking my drop wolves will have flamers from now on, as will 3/5 terminators I drop in their backfield. I can't think of a better solution for  tau Pathfinders, nasty DE jetbikes, and other cover-using models. 

[skeletoro]

Hmm. Flamers are good if you're going up against a lot of lightly armoured infantry. The problem is, they're not particularly good against anything else. Yep, they're assault, which is certainly nice. Are you planning on always charging? Presumably not if  you're drop podding, given that you can't charge first turn. Against MEQ, 2 plasma shots kills 20/18 marines. Hitting 6 marines with fire will kill the same number.

 

I'm not sure how reliably you'll be able to hit 6 guys with your template upon landing. But add the next turn, before a charge, and yeah. Over 2 turns, up close, you might easily  outperform a plasma if you can hit 4+ guys with each template, and if you are planning on charging (due to the plasma being rapid fire). I guess the issue here is that wounds caused sooner are much better than wounds caused later.

 

If you land and get charged, the plasmas get about an extra third (but with 100% more gets hot! results) - that is, about 1.5 models. Instead of 2 templates (in the charging scenario), the flamers are downgraded to 1 template (on your turn) +1d3 hits. If 4-5 hits with a flamer template is a reasonable expectation, you're looking at about 6 including the d3 - 1 marine. So in this context, the plasma will actually cause more death (to you, also). Over 1 round, with 1 rapid fire and receiving the charge once, a plasma gun actually kills more marines than a flamer (assuming the template hits 4-5 guys or so).

So interestingly, although flamers are great vs. light infantry and solid at receiving the charge, plasma is arguably better for grey hunters rapid firing + counterattacking against marines. Even with those overwatch shots. But if you're planning on charging at the first opportunity you get, the usefulness of plasma dwindles.

It's not that easy a choice, because it depends on meta to a great extent. As several recently updated armies use a fair few cover saves and plenty of light infantry, flamers may see an increase in usefulness...

 

I didn't even get onto meltas, did I?

[hendrik]

tools for the job mate, tools for the job... this isn't the guard where you can afford to wast an entire unit. personally i think all 3 special weapons should be represented.

 

on a sidenote, i've had people argue that if they take the flamer as the first special weapon they can get the plasma as a second one for free if the pack numbers 10 men

[Robert2004]

Seriously thinking of altering my 10m assault squad with two plasma pistols and using at least one, maybe two flamers? Meta has a lot of tau and orks at the moment and I've had my fair share of deaths over the gets hot rule, where the flamer is instant hit and can be useful to whittle down numbers before the assault?

 

Whats your thoughts on this guys?

[WolfLordSam]

It depends on the role of the pack, IMO. For a mid-range fire support pack, plasma all the way. For a podding or outflanking (via Wolf Priest) pack, I would take a flamer/melta mix.

[skeletoro]

Personally I wouldn't mix within units because it means your units aren't specialized for any particular role. One of the benefits of drop pods is that you can dispose of your units in a very tactical manner. Lots of armour on one half of the board? Send your melta there. Lots of infantry on the other side? Send your flamers there. Grey hunters can't split fire. So I think it's best to double up on the same special weapon in a 10 man unit.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Ya, generally, it is best to keep your packs having the same weaponry, though I do it for redundancy. I hate rolling a single die to kill something big, so having that extra melta or plasma or what-have-you makes it far more likely for my attack to be successful and do damage. Plus, it is less likely my special weapons will be killed outright. 

[Grimtooth]

I push for redundancy builds all the time and refuse to accept that a combi-weapon on a WGPL is a sufficient substitute.  I never settle for my Grey Hunter packs to be content with only going after one unit and then being done.  Which when you think about it, past the initial single shot of a combi-weapon, the pack is left basically hoping for no misses on that single special weapon.

 

GH x2 plasma

GH x2 melta

GH x2 flamer

 

That pretty much sums up the builds I believe in with my concept of close support.

[maverik_girl]

...I'm cruel to the fact that I'd rather have my enemies burn and suffer a slow death compared to the two other special weapons.

[Lord Ragnarok]

tools for the job mate, tools for the job... this isn't the guard where you can afford to wast an entire unit. personally i think all 3 special weapons should be represented.

 

on a sidenote, i've had people argue that if they take the flamer as the first special weapon they can get the plasma as a second one for free if the pack numbers 10 men

Yeah, I'm trying to make sure these are all covered as well. Maybe not in my GH packs but to ensure that I have each somewhere in my DP force whether it is GH packs or WG Terminator packs. I'm debating a suicide pack of WG with three combi flamers (3xWG) to burn flamer vulnerable units in good cover.

[skeletoro]

 

tools for the job mate, tools for the job... this isn't the guard where you can afford to wast an entire unit. personally i think all 3 special weapons should be represented.

 

on a sidenote, i've had people argue that if they take the flamer as the first special weapon they can get the plasma as a second one for free if the pack numbers 10 men

Yeah, I'm trying to make sure these are all covered as well. Maybe not in my GH packs but to ensure that I have each somewhere in my DP force whether it is GH packs or WG Terminator packs. I'm debating a suicide pack of WG with three combi flamers (3xWG) to burn flamer vulnerable units in good cover.

I think that could work if your local meta has lots of such units. I think if you're going to do this, it CAN'T be a suicide unit, though. Those bodies aren't really worth throwing away for a few extra guardsmen killed, IMO. So... 69 points of wolf guard and a drop pod? Maybe it's worth doing that kind of thing with melta, but I don't really think it's worth suiciding guys for flamer shots (perhaps not worth it for plasma either).

 

So I'd suggest you consider upping the unit to say, 4-5 terminators. After they've expended combi flamers (not necessarily worth taking 5. Maybe go 3 combi flamers + WC, and 2 WC + PF. Perhaps slip a heavy flamer in there) ... they're still 4-5 terminators. Who are in your enemy's deployment zone. And tear stuff up in CC.

[pedrogzc]

I find working in pairs a good option:

 

It could be done with rhinos or razorbacks (in this case with combi wolf guard, of course).

 

You take two units, one with  2 melta/plasma and other with 2 flamer unit both with transports. Plasma / melta unit will push the enemy to stack in cover, then you just have to burn them without mercy.

 

I have tried 5 wolf guard in droppod with 5 combiflamers and they slain as much as plasma even against sv2+ if the enemy unit is suficiently stacked.

[Lord Ragnarok]

 

 

tools for the job mate, tools for the job... this isn't the guard where you can afford to wast an entire unit. personally i think all 3 special weapons should be represented.

 

on a sidenote, i've had people argue that if they take the flamer as the first special weapon they can get the plasma as a second one for free if the pack numbers 10 men

Yeah, I'm trying to make sure these are all covered as well. Maybe not in my GH packs but to ensure that I have each somewhere in my DP force whether it is GH packs or WG Terminator packs. I'm debating a suicide pack of WG with three combi flamers (3xWG) to burn flamer vulnerable units in good cover.

I think that could work if your local meta has lots of such units. I think if you're going to do this, it CAN'T be a suicide unit, though. Those bodies aren't really worth throwing away for a few extra guardsmen killed, IMO. So... 69 points of wolf guard and a drop pod? Maybe it's worth doing that kind of thing with melta, but I don't really think it's worth suiciding guys for flamer shots (perhaps not worth it for plasma either).

 

So I'd suggest you consider upping the unit to say, 4-5 terminators. After they've expended combi flamers (not necessarily worth taking 5. Maybe go 3 combi flamers + WC, and 2 WC + PF. Perhaps slip a heavy flamer in there) ... they're still 4-5 terminators. Who are in your enemy's deployment zone. And tear stuff up in CC.

Good points. I think I will try them in three's and see how it works. I've configed my list so that two packs have the same load out (Gh pack with flamers and WG with heavy flamer, to compliment WG with combi flamers. Same for meltas.)

[skeletoro]

Another thing: if you're buying a unit a dedicated drop pod (pretty much the only kind there is) then you'll be able to capitalize on that flexibility that much more if it's a troops choice.

Having Logan means you can have multiple specialist combi weapons teams, each of which is capable of taking and holding objectives. Of course, Logan doesn't come cheap. He's a strong melee character, has strong buffs, and having your DPing wolf guard able to take and contest is a BIG deal. But. It doesn't come cheap at all.

Sure, take those 3 models you mentioned. But I think you'll get more out of 3 TDAWG. 45 points extra and you make each of them about twice as tough (the unit is about as tough as a razorback pack now) and actually fairly good on the assault, at a pinch. 3 power weapons is nothing to laugh at. Still, it's a slippery slope. At that point I'd really be tempted to go for 5 and the heavy weapon

I mean, if you were just paying ~70 points to deliver those 3 flamer templates on turn one, it might be worth it. But you're paying for the drop pod too. That's over 100 points. If the unit basically just lies down and dies after firing their flamers... what are the odds they'll ever actually pay their points back. That said, I guess there's a difference between lying down and dying, and being 100% wiped out by an enemy unit's fire. If that unit's fire might have been directed elsewhere, and especially if they OVERkill your unit, I guess you're getting more out of your ~100 points than 3 flamer templates. I'd be interested to hear how it works for you, though!

Alternatively, grey hunters with 2 flamers in a drop pod... I mean, 2 flamers isn't 5. But it's going to be enough (in combination with rapid firing bolt guns - cover or no cover) to do the job, 8 times out of ten. You're not usually going to need to focus fire a single infantry unit with 5 flamers. And at the end of the day, you've got a very capable unit that is able to contest objectives. Aaaand, why not take 2 such units of grey hunters? That way, if you REALLY need to focus fire a super-nasty infantry unit that is hunkered down, you can just have both packs gang up on it.

[eyeslikethunder]

The space wolves list that won the australian masters had a tda combiflamer squad( as well as a melta and plasma squads) in pods

i think the rising number of stealth/high cover save units make this increasingly useful

[Lord Ragnarok]

The space wolves list that won the australian masters had a tda combiflamer squad( as well as a melta and plasma squads) in pods

i think the rising number of stealth/high cover save units make this increasingly useful

Yeah, I sensed this based on recent discussions on the nets. This is why I figured it would be good to diversify my armaments and add flamers and heavy flamer

[Valerian]

The calculus on Flamers has changed a bit in 6e, with the advent of the rules allowing Snap Fire shots against charging units; this makes it much more likely that you'll actually get some use from your Flamers (with the huge assumption that the enemy units actually want to Assault your Grey Hunters, and not just stand and try to Rapid Fire them down).

 

In 5e, I would never, ever put a Flamer on any unit that didn't have significant Tactical Mobility: Bikes, Jump Infantry, Speeders, etc. Otherwise it was more likely than not that the Flamer would never get any real use, and would be, therefore, a poor option compared to the always useful Plasmagun and Meltagun that it'd be substituting for.

 

Also, I'd consider what you get out of a Flamer vice your stock Boltguns/Bolt Pistols; they're all S4 and AP5. The only thing you're getting is a few more potential hits per shot, and ignore cover saves; that's not really a huge advantage against many enemy types (particularly other MEQ) although its nice against basic Orks, IG, and Guardians, etc.

 

V

[Lord Ragnarok]

The calculus on Flamers has changed a bit in 6e, with the advent of the rules allowing Snap Fire shots against charging units; this makes it much more likely that you'll actually get some use from your Flamers (with the huge assumption that the enemy units actually want to Assault your Grey Hunters, and not just stand and try to Rapid Fire them down).

 

In 5e, I would never, ever put a Flamer on any unit that didn't have significant Tactical Mobility: Bikes, Jump Infantry, Speeders, etc. Otherwise it was more likely than not that the Flamer would never get any real use, and would be, therefore, a poor option compared to the always useful Plasmagun and Meltagun that it'd be substituting for.

 

Also, I'd consider what you get out of a Flamer vice your stock Boltguns/Bolt Pistols; they're all S4 and AP5. The only thing you're getting is a few more potential hits per shot, and ignore cover saves; that's not really a huge advantage against many enemy types (particularly other MEQ) although its nice against basic Orks, IG, and Guardians, etc.

 

V

And Tau right? They were an army I was considering when adding more "flambé" to my packs.

[Valerian]

Well yes, Tau are in that "etc." part, but most Tau units pretty much fold when you get within Flamer range anyway, don't they? They certainly aren't going to be charging you - not Fire Warriors, anyway.

 

V