Sooooo..... Anyone played Eldar yet?

[Tiger9gamer]

has anyone played them yet? Saw a game where they annihilated a space wolf drop pod army, and kinda wondering how the DA would do. 

[Pyro X]

I think DA would have a better time vs eldar than SW would, as we have more things to save us from AP 2 spam. Ravenwing have jinx and movement over them (unless its Saim Hann). Deathwing don't really have movement and the invul save is still not to good, so I think deathwing would be at less than favorable odds. greenwing, I think, I would do good with dakka banner + black knights because of insta death. just my 2 cents.

[marvmoogy]

ive had a look at the codex briefly and I'm worried.

 

The thing that hits me is a Wraithwing army. Taking Wraithguard and Wraithblades as troops is a daunting prospect especially with Wraithlords and the evil Wraithknight....especially with its str6 or 8 ap2 suncannon....

 

The lords and knights are also really strong and really hight toughness. and the knight can get an inv just for good measure.......so I'm thinking of taking a GK detachment with a Vindicare assassin. Shieldbreaker ammo? yes please! Then, with the inv popped....charge in my deathwing knights and activate smite which should give enough attacks to get rid of the 6 (YES 6!!!!) wounds!

[jeremy1391]

Remember the troops they have are still weak! 5+ and 4+ saves are meh, unless they take a wraith wing but then they will have less toys. Kill the troops and hold down an objective and you will win.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

nope, my brother collects Eldar, so, will be playing them a lot soon...which means I shall become and expert on slaughtering them!

[Gillyfish]

Haven't seen the list in action yet, but if you're talking about a traditional Eldar list, then that relies on speed and the ability to put the right units in the right places. If that can be taken away then a traditional Eldar list will struggle. So you want mismatches where you have the advantage. We have the advantage there with Ravenwing, which have even greater speed than Eldar infantry and can run away from his counter units. Add in de-buff units like Black Knights and the Talon, and you should be okay. A wraith army is a different proposition, from the sound of it. It's less likely to have speed on its side but will have heavy hitters. Think of it a bit like a DW list, but with generally better guns and a big, scary Wraithknight. There, shooting would probably work. Again note, that the units are usually specialised - shooting or cc, so you can counter accordingly. Plus you might have speed on your side against that list and will need to use it.

 

This is just theory of course, but generally speaking, good Eldar players need to be able to implement their plan and use the best tools for the job. Anything you can do to break that plan will work in your favour.

[elphilo]

Don't forget about their Troop grav bikes. T4 3+ that get a 2d6 move in the assault phase if they don't charge is super fast and great last minute objective grabbers. Though they are so cheap that you might see them being taken more than the other Troop options.

Wraith armies scare the crap out of me mainly because of how Tough they are and their firepower, something the Deathwing Knights will make priority numero uno

[Kajae]

A good friend of mine es a very competitive eldar player, and he's worried that eldar got the really short end of the stick:

 

"What they got were a few minor buffs a few minor point reductions and a whole of golly gee nerfs. Random power table for ALL seers, to include far, spirit (new HQ choice, unlocks wraiths as troops) and even warlocks. Dire avengers can't bladestorm anymore, but all shuriken weapons now have the keyword bladestorm. It gives them a rend that only affects infantry. Neat. All infantry can now run/shoot or shoot run, but warp spiders can't jump in the assault phase. War walkers doubled in cost and are open topped again. Banshees are still useless (due to lack of delivery system). The list goes on."

 

It sounds like a wraith army may be the only good thing to come out of the codex, hence the Iyanden digital supplement.

That said, as many of us field deathwing, we know how easily an army with a very small number of models can be torn apart, and so how to beat it. I'm not very worried.

[Aegnor]

That might be an overly pessimistic assessment. More accessible wraithguard troops, the wraithknight, better jetbikes, guardians and Dark Reapers are all pretty handy. War Walkers are now BS4 and the laser lock thing on Scatter Lasers is pretty handy. I'm excited to try Fire Prisms again, and for games against non-MEQ, the Nightspinner given the slight buff to monofilament.

 

I think a lot of the previously 'reliable' win options have been altered, which will no doubt irk those who have honed their army around exploiting them.

 

I was disappointed that there was no option to give Banshees and to a lesser extent Harlequins an assault vehicle - they seem likely to remain too frail to walk up or transport, disembark, stand around, then assault. That said, they still have Battle Focus and Fleet, which helps a very small amount.

[Hellios]

As an Eldar player I'm not convinced that Spirit Hosts (Wraithwing) will be that good. Your troops have a very short range (12 inches or templates), melee Wraiths have inv saves. You can't attach Warlocks to the squads anymore. I imagine a squad of AP2 flamers in a wave serpent will be nasty, but coming in at 325pts or more it should be nasty. However 2 of those and a Spiritseer is a lot of point and no Inv save. Like DW... Not enough models...

 

I would say random psychic powers (and non-auto cast LD8 powers on Warlocks) is the biggest problem with the new Eldar codex, but it isn't a surprise.

 

Some of the other stuff is better due to rules changes or points drop.

 

Don't rely on your Jinx save... Eldar have a unit that can ignore it... and that unit puts out strength 5/8 shots with AP3. Oh... and it is posssible that they will remove your shrouded (or is it stealth they can remove?) if you are trying that.

 

A lot of the good eldar units, are the units that were good before. Most have been improved. Some have become more expensive, but that just means they are no longer a no-brainer.

 

Howling Banshees are trash... A shame I have 60 of them XD.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gentlemen, thread is to discuss how to beat Eldar, not how Eldar were nerfed (or improved). 

[Hellios]

Gentlemen, thread is to discuss how to beat Eldar, not how Eldar were nerfed (or improved). 

 

You need to know what is good, what is bad, and how everything works before you can come up with a plan to beat it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

Gentlemen, thread is to discuss how to beat Eldar, not how Eldar were nerfed (or improved). 

 

You need to know what is good, what is bad, and how everything works before you can come up with a plan to beat it.

 

Granted, but there are ways of redacting a text saying what's good and whats bad, more Marine friendly and board appropriate than others. 

Saying stuff like: Im excited to testdrive the new improved wraithguard" doesn't really help marine players beat Eldar, does it?

[bystrom]

A good friend of mine es a very competitive eldar player, and he's worried that eldar got the really short end of the stick:

 

"What they got were a few minor buffs a few minor point reductions and a whole of golly gee nerfs. Random power table for ALL seers, to include far, spirit (new HQ choice, unlocks wraiths as troops) and even warlocks. Dire avengers can't bladestorm anymore, but all shuriken weapons now have the keyword bladestorm. It gives them a rend that only affects infantry. Neat. All infantry can now run/shoot or shoot run, but warp spiders can't jump in the assault phase. War walkers doubled in cost and are open topped again. Banshees are still useless (due to lack of delivery system). The list goes on."

 

It sounds like a wraith army may be the only good thing to come out of the codex, hence the Iyanden digital supplement.

 

That said, as many of us field deathwing, we know how easily an army with a very small number of models can be torn apart, and so how to beat it. I'm not very worried.

I believe warp spiders still can jump in the assault phase, as they are now jet infantry, not jump infantry (i.e. like crisis suits). The random psyker table will make it hard to predict much before the game; the army really needs to be built to consider as many of the powers as possible, or just take the normal rulebook powers. Till then, I think eldar will have problems working with psychic powers. Eldar fast attack and bikes seem to be alright choices.

[Gillyfish]

I will just echo Lucifer on this - this thread needs to be about how to beat the Eldar, not just what they got or didn't get. So it's fine to say that certain units are now viable (or not) but then you should say what that means for us opponents to the Eldar. Does fewer Spiders and Banshees give the DA an advantage? Is an improved War Walker something we need to be worried about? Hellios mentioned that we may not get the kink save and/or stealth/shrouding. Which is and how should we counter it if we're running RW?

[Tiger9gamer]

I'm thinking that Devastation Ravenwing can outshoot most of it's infantry and wipe out squads with all it's fire. Pathfinders, though.... instant kill all the banners.

[jeremy1391]

Hide you banners inside land raiders or have a PFG character attached

[marvmoogy]

the troops wont be the problem...the armour will be and the random psychic powers.

 

The Eldar have got some really threatening new bits in it.  High strength guns with AP2 will be really hard on us.  When you look in our armoury, what do we have that can take out a toughness 8, 6 wound monstrous creature with an inv save and possible upgrades giving it rerolls to save and giving us rerolls to wound?  Add that that the fact that it is less than 300 points...we'd struggle to kill it off with double that points but if we ignore it, we'll be done for.

 

Also the psychic powers.  We can't plan a counter as they are based on a random dice roll.  Personally, I love how GW thought that the oldest, most psychically adept race wouldnt be able to control what they want to do, but heyho....

 

what counters do you guys see for these 2 issues?

[BigGumbo]

I'd see DWKs and BKs as counters to the high T, multi-wound MC issue. My regular Eldar opponent certainly does;-). Even regular termies in CC have the tools to take them down. The odd Lascannon dread or Godhammer land raider might help, too.

 

As for random psychic powers: eventually everyone's going to have these. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. He's got to do the same for yours, after all. If you really want to be sure of a hard counter to every unit your opponent could deploy, you want to be playing Apocalypse not 40k. Personally I'm quite looking forward to the possibility that the next Farseer I face might not have Doom AND Guide AND Fortune...

[Dirrain]

I see Illic Nightspear as being one of THE most annoying things to hit us DA players. Of all our HQs, only Sammael has Eternal Warrior. Nightspear has BS 9 (!), Instant Deaths on a 6, can't "look out sir" his shots... Ugh. 

 

Not too worried about the vaunted battle trance, as most likely before or after shooting us (assuming the tactical/RW squad doesn't get wiped by pesudo rending) they'll probably be in 24" salvo 4 range. 20+ bolter shots will shred guardians or whatever. 

 

As a DW player though I am rather worried about the pesudo rending (guardians beat my terminators what?!) and the serpent shield thingie. And Fire Dragons. Also rather worried about the rising prevalence of monstrous creatures nowadays. DW uses knights to end MCs, but what about green/ravenwing? How do we deal with MCs using bolters? Shooting them til they die and hoping they die before they touch us?

[Tiger9gamer]

Black knights Radding them, then hitting them with plasma/ missiles/lascannons? once they are T7, our bolters can at least scratch their armor on 6's, so we can still put shots on them.

[Dirrain]

Ah. Totally forgot we had black knights and dark talons and nasty, nasty -T bombs. Seems like a lot of work to synchronise BKs/DTs with heavy fire when you can just use knights :P

 

DW's solution to MCs is as elegant as it is simple. 

 

(Activate Smite mode) REPENT!!! *SMASH*

[Tiger9gamer]

You don't have to use the Talon, maybe just a lot of typhoon speeders  and melta all shooting at these guys.

 

S8 wounding on a 3+ instead of a 4+, and str7 on a 4+ instead of a 5+

[RayJ]

The worrysome units from Eldar will be the following:

 

Wave Serpent

Fire Prism

Night Spinner

Guardian Defenders

Warp Spiders

Wraithknight

Avatar

Wraithguard

 

The Wave Serpent throws out so much fire power with the Scatter Laser + Cannon setup that 4-6 of these will win the attrition war against almost any enemy. We will need to increase our S7+ shooting to deal with the mech wall.

 

Fire Prisms can totally butcher land raiders, bike squads, and terminator squads with ease, and the Night Spinner can make any unit in cover regret showing up (and it inflicts decent damage on the way in)

 

Guardian Defenders just shred MEQs and seriously hurt TEQs. Fortunately they are Armor 5, but Battle Focus makes them very scary when used correctly.

 

Warp Spiders are the most mobile shooting platform in the game. 6+2d6 move in the movement phase, d6 in the shooting phase, and 2d6 in the assault phase. You will see them pop out from behind things, shred units, and walk away. They obliterate transports because their weapons are S7 vs pretty much any vehicle that isn't a walker.

 

Wraithknights and Wraithguard will ID our bike ICs and demolish land raiders with ease, and the AP2 flamer available can put some serious hurt on everything. Fortunately, they won't come in large squads, but T6 is hard to manage outside of Deathwing.

 

Avatar is a challenge beast, and with fast shot has 2 meltagun shots at BS10. This guy will kill whatever he touches. Fortuantely he's down to 5+ invulnerable, but he has an extra wound.

 

Overall, we need more High-Strength shooting to deal with Eldar, where we've been using a lot of boltgun shots in the past. Our all-star unit is really going to be Black Knights I think.

[Cactus]

I have an eldar army too so this is all useful information. Good discussion, keep 'em coming.