Isiah Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Eh what --- into Chamber 42 for you Cactus --- to realign your loyalties :). Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfBAAL Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 ooooook i just started fielding a 2000 point all deathwing list with one crusader and a mortis dread and im SERIOUSLY worried abbout everything ive read here alls i have are reagualer deathwing besides the vehicles and my army is geared towards shooting. what should i do to counter the abbundance of Eldar high power that they are going to have. not many eldar players in my area but there are enough to worry me because i still wanna remain a respectable player and be able to give them a challenge and hopefully get a win should i add some Black knights???? some Deatwing Knights and hopefully be able to assault on the durn i deepstrike in or is that not allowed??? ......Help!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I agree that our big hitting units will serve well at knocking over Eldar toughies, combo RWBKs and other units of choice and they will go down. Drop T8 to T7 and hit it with a few Plasma talons and a bit of typhoon support and it's a by-by. One unit in our dex that is really beginning to shine for me is the uber cheap Whirlwind, three for 195 points is an absolute steal and S5 AP4 will shred dismounted xenos and S4 AP5 ignores cover will remove pesky Pathfinders no problems at all. I haven't played against Eldar but without much in the HS FoC to challenge them at the price they rule. YMMV s EDIT: KnightOfBAAL: RWBK or the RWCS are brilliant against most foes and should be taken en-masse whenever possible , the DWK are great against some targets but as you suspect cannot charge after DS and will have to soak up an armies worth of fire until the next round. As some brothers here have discussed the amount of fire they can absorb is awesome and will help to protect the rest of your army for a turn but they do become very limited against mobile armies unless in a LRC or similar (with the obvious risk of eggs in baskets etc). I guess your playstyle and army will adapt to your own environment/meta so enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 One unit in our dex that is really beginning to shine for me is the uber cheap Whirlwind, three for 195 points is an absolute steal and S5 AP4 will shred dismounted xenos and S4 AP5 ignores cover will remove pesky Pathfinders no problems at all. I haven't played against Eldar but without much in the HS FoC to challenge them at the price they rule. YMMV s Yep, the Whirlwind is actually shaping up to be the all star in our Codex this edition. Its one of those things that is good versus almost everyone no matter what. And at how cheap they are, they should be taken in pairs for Vindicator goodness in the last heavy spot. Or in triplets for super death from above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 As a DW player though I am rather worried about the pesudo rending (guardians beat my terminators what?!) and the serpent shield thingie. And Fire Dragons. Also rather worried about the rising prevalence of monstrous creatures nowadays. DW uses knights to end MCs, but what about green/ravenwing? How do we deal with MCs using bolters? Shooting them til they die and hoping they die before they touch us? Um, you do know that Guardians and Dragons only have 12" range, don't you? Compared with our 24" range? Even the Avengers are 6" short of bolter/Storm Bolter range, so it ought to be manageable to keep them at arm's length even with their move, run, shoot ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I think we'll need to keep an eye out for War Walkers as well. I think a Scatter Laser/Star Cannon combo will be pretty horrible, especially against Deathwing. The Scatter Lasers will make you take a lot of saves and when they hit, the AP2 starcannons will count as twin linked. The 36" range for both, combined with battle focus will make catching them a pain as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirrain Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 @ BigGumbo - Short range won't matter if they ride in on a wave serpent which takes forever to kill due to the new shields, disembark, fire everything which ignores armor save on a 6 at 5 measly terminators, and battle focus and run back behind their wave serpent. 12 models with assault 2 = 24 shuriken shots. Statistically, 4 shots will ignore armor. Haven't even taken into account the other 20 shots (how many 2+ can you roll before you fail?) and the wave serpent's guns yet. Let's not even get started on what happens with 10 melta shots from dragons or perhaps multiple guardian squads engaging one or two DWTs. The eldar are a highly mobile army. That hasn't changed in the new codex. In fact thanks to battle focus they're more mobile then before. Yeah, we out range them. So what? They are more then capable of closing the gap and drowning our terminators in shots. Torrent fire is the worst thing for DW. EDIT - Battle focus and not battle trance. Oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Of course, they do have to hit with those 24 shots. 16 of 24 shots hit. 8 of those shots wound, 1.33 of those will be AP2 (Bladestorm kicks in on a 6 to wound, not to hit). So on average around 2 wounds will be inflicted. No need to catastrophise it. They're nasty for Terminators, but they always have been. With Bladestorm going from an extra shot to a mini-rend, Dire Avengers have probably stayed even in terms of how deadly their shooting is. (In fact, it was around 2 wounds inflicted in the old codex as well - 36 shots because of old Bladestorm, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 2 missed saves). The tougher Wave Serpent and Battle Focus do however make it easier for them to get off their shots at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Look, it's all well and good to moan about the potential for an eldar army to be packed with AP2 killiness...but is that really a competitive eldar army in an all-comers environment? They'd be laughed off the table by anything with more than 60 models. I'm sure that there will be a (as in one) unit of dedicated termie-killers and probably a wraithknight (cause it's cool) in most armies. And we'll deal with the AP2-ness the same way we've always dealt with it...charge from outside its shooting range. So, to me, the only real "new" threat is the wraithknight. It requires a tag-team. smiting knights won't cut the mustard, they only get one turn of awesomesauce. They need to be the coup de gras. So torrent it with autocannons or charge it with thundernators to whittle it down. It's an army's centerpiece, so I don't want to hear about how many thundernators will die. They have a 3++ and they wound it on 4+. They should be able to strip some pretty serious wounds off of it, then have the knights charge in a turn later for the finish. What else are you going to do with your hammernators and knights, anyway? These are space elves. Your good stuff is overkill against their T and save. So you might as well let the good stuff expend itself killing off the big nasty that took 40 hours to paint while the tactical terminators and the crusaders wipe the field with the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 March10k's mention of tag-team killing put me in mind of something I've been mulling over for a while now, which is that singlewing DA armies are looking less useful when compared with armies with an element of dual/multiwing..... It occurs to me that Deathwing armies will benefit from the presence of Black Knights, and Ravenwing armies (which will already have the BKs in) will benefit from the presence of DWK.....its almost as if Mr Vetock wanted it that way...... Should we, therefore, when list designing, essentially be automatically including a unit of DWK and a unit of BK (either straight BK or as a RWCS)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirrain Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Sorry guys. Wasn't my intention to sound like "Oh dear one squad of guardians will wipe my termies GG". Guess I did come off that way. Apologies! I wanted to point out that yeah, storm bolters outrange the shuriken catapult. But eldar have more then enough mobility to get within range and unload everything on us. I can't speak to the effectiveness of eldar against RW (stripping shrouding sounds nasty though) or multi/greenwing as I play only DW, but their mobility and specialization would probably still end up being quite the challenge. Around my meta, most players aren't getting the wraithknight. Either that or they aren't fielding it. I see lots of people snatching up wraithguard though. Would Wraithwing armies pose a challenge to us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I agree with March10k, we need to think about eldar armies in general meta, not "if I had to play eldar what species army list would I play against DA?" That's not how it works. However RWBK seems again to be our Swiss knife solution. Fast, manoeuvrable, their weapons can easily take care of any wraith thingy. The more codex are released, the more I think DA are meant to be played with a HQ on bike to get 3x RWBK squadrons with a nephilim...(though illric seems reeeeeeally dangerous beside an Icarus) They need to be the coup de gras.Side note : the good expression is "coup de grâce" which can be hardly word for word translated like "Mercy-full hit". What you've written means "fat-full hit" which is a lil' different ;-)[/French mode off] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 It occurs to me that Deathwing armies will benefit from the presence of Black Knights, and Ravenwing armies (which will already have the BKs in) will benefit from the presence of DWK.....its almost as if Mr Vetock wanted it that way...... Nail, head It does seem that the synergistic, multi-wing DA list is the way to go and I think we're all the better for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 @ BigGumbo - Short range won't matter if they ride in on a wave serpent which takes forever to kill due to the new shields, disembark, fire everything which ignores armor save on a 6 at 5 measly terminators, and battle focus and run back behind their wave serpent. 12 models with assault 2 = 24 shuriken shots. Statistically, 4 shots will ignore armor. Haven't even taken into account the other 20 shots (how many 2+ can you roll before you fail?) and the wave serpent's guns yet. And that won't matter if your termies are riding in a Land Raider that most Wave Serpent weapons can't touch. I'm not trying to belittle the challenge that the Eldar pose (having bought the dex yesterday, strictly for research purposes) but it does seem like the immediate online reaction to every new codex release is "Oh no, they can kill termies too! We're doomed.", which might be a tiny bit over the top. Perhaps. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 It occurs to me that Deathwing armies will benefit from the presence of Black Knights, and Ravenwing armies (which will already have the BKs in) will benefit from the presence of DWK.....its almost as if Mr Vetock wanted it that way...... Should we, therefore, when list designing, essentially be automatically including a unit of DWK and a unit of BK (either straight BK or as a RWCS)? Everytime I run the Knights, Raven & Deathwing variants, I'm always impressed with what they do. Personally I think the Black Knights are the best unit in our codex and will always have at least 6 of them in any list I run. So yeah, I think when developing lists one should consider putting some Black Knights in their list. Their speed, toughness and killingness (melee & shooting) is something that no Dark Angels army should leave home without, that and whirlwinds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirrain Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I personally don't use LRs as every time I've tried, they've died by turn 2. I've successfully charged out of a LR once. Maybe our big lovable boxes hate me? I dunno. Point is I don't use LRCs. I field Dread firebase and DS all my terminators. Our terminators traditional weaknesses are AP2 weaponry (mitigated by TH/SS), torrent fire (mitigated by positioning), tarpit fearless hordes. I might be wrong on this, feel free to enlighten me. But the codex releases so far except daemons, they kinda fell under the radar, has torrent fire (looking at tau) or pesudo rending thing with lots and lots of ap2 starcannons or what have you. The eldar's mobility also doesn't help at all. Playing DW, with LRs or no, we can't afford to trade squads with anyone. Eldar guardians are cheap and (somewhat) effective at taking out our terminators. So are Tau firewarriors. for 460-480 points I have 2 fully kitted out 5 man DWT squads. How many squads and how many guns does that same pointage allow them to throw at us? As for sounding "a bit over the top", I said in my original post I was rather worried about guardians/dragons. Rather worried. If that's over the top to you, I'm sorry. I didn't go "OMG HAX IGNORE ARMOR ON 6 GG!!!". But I don't believe that just saying oh its fine we outrange them is a solution, especially given their mobility. I can't afford to lose even the 2 terminators that 24 shots, on average will kill despite our SBs being double their range. EDIT - Yeah I know if I wanna be competitive I should go for multiwing lists, but I like my pure DW. And I just can't seem to paint bikers. Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfBAAL Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 im just going to stay as deathwing as possible while still remaining competitive. I need DWK but they have 0 mobility so i go for RWBK and use them like a glass hammer unit to kill the big baddie and ill make whatever changes i need to to keep my army competitive remember we are the First Legion and the sons of the Lion who was a master tactician if we are to stuck in our ways and decide to waste first company veterans because of that than may the warp take us for we are unfit to lead. lol all that aside the Eldar are a synergy army and use a variety of tactics to take down targets if we can take out a piece of the machine then the machine doesn't work so well and if synergy is the new way to play then by all means we should easily adapt. How do you break their vehicles is the biggest question that i have??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Same way we kill all vehicles. Massed missile or lascannon fire, fast moving melta, or shots to rear armour from deep strikers/bikes. That will kill their vehicles, even the Wave Serpent. Its shield lets it turn penetrating hits to front/side to glances on 2+, but it only has 3 HP. Otherwise, DW crunch them with powerfists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 If I'm honest as an Eldar and DW player... I've never had any problems killing Land Raiders with my Eldar armies (and I think the Eldar have just gotten better at busting tanks)... Hell take 3, it makes my life easier. DA force fields make it tougher compared to normal marine armies... So that could be a problem. Against Eldar I think the size of the table will be important. I think DA will have an easier time against most Eldar armies on a 4x4 table, while 6x4 will put things in favor of the Eldar. Will Eldar have lots of stuff that can kill terminators in a competitive list? Probably... Fire Dragons have been very popular for a while... They cost more (even as an Eldar player I wanted them to go up in price, many of my other wishes didn't come true), but they are also a little better. Power Fists that strike at initiative could also hurt terminators. In fact in a competative list I don't think Eldar will have a problem killing terminators while still having enough fire power to shoot other things that need to be shot. Storm shields will make a difference. Be it hammernators or DW knights... I will need to torrent that stuff... Which depending on your army structure (and my army structure) may damage the effectiveness of my armies overall dakka factor. I certainly think mixed-wing forces can produce stronger lists, but I play DW for the cool factor! I'm just sad that I can no longer DS my entire army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 @Dirrain: the "over the top" bit wasn't specifically or solely aimed at you, sorry if it came across that way. I just feel a little bit of my soul depart every time I see a discussion of how a three day old codex has rendered our own shiny toys irrelevant, before anyone has had a realistic chance to actually see for themselves how these new units/new rules perform on the battlefield. As a wider point, none of these things exists in a vacuum and there will always be "what-ifs" around. Is Bladestorm a new threat for us? Or course it is. Is it a game changer? Who knows - maybe, maybe not. Will the new Eldar rules force us to rethink our approach? Probably ... but that's no bad thing. The game is evolving and we should have to change with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 @Dirrain: the "over the top" bit wasn't specifically or solely aimed at you, sorry if it came across that way. I just feel a little bit of my soul depart every time I see a discussion of how a three day old codex has rendered our own shiny toys irrelevant, before anyone has had a realistic chance to actually see for themselves how these new units/new rules perform on the battlefield.Hehe! That happens when every new codex comes out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirrain Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 @BigGumbo - I have to apologise too if I seemed a bit snarky. Exams tmr and I'm still here... Heh. But you are totally justified in the whole "internet jumping on codex" thing. The riptide was heralded as the most imba thing after heldrake. Now..... Still scary but no where as OP as the interwebs claim. Same thing goes for the wraithknight. Also, like you said, the codex has been out for... almost a week now? I mean I'd love to just play 40k every day but commitments get in the way. In absence of any actual field test we just have to settle for armchair theorizing. Just take it with a bit of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfBAAL Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 we just got a new codex right so we arent up for update for a long time??? because it seems like GW boosted up the ravenwing but kinda left DW without an major must take units or any other really cool choices how about a DEathwing StrormRaven or something like that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 we just got a new codex right so we arent up for update for a long time??? because it seems like GW boosted up the ravenwing but kinda left DW without an major must take units or any other really cool choices how about a DEathwing StrormRaven or something like that.... shooosh... take a chill pill, man. If you don't have a chill pill, take one of those chill strips. put it on your tongue and it dissolves... Chill. We can have some FW stuff if we so desire. The Cassus assault ram can hold 10 terminators, and our knights can smash any dang thing we touch. We have hammers, plasma cannons and what not. If we don't have that, We can ally people in. say, space marines or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I would say we gained a heavy hitter in the form of deathwing knights and venerable land raiders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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