Which chaos legions should get a supplement

[Nehekhare]

heldrakes!

[Prot]

heldrakes!

 

Yea, Heldrakes as troops would pretty much fix a lot of things for me. lol

 

Now which Legion would that be? :P

[Kol Saresk]

I'd imagine the Iron Warriors since they use so many daemon engines.

[Smurfalypse]

I think one for all of the Legions would be fine. Since we can intermix as it is there is no need to separate them all into different supplements. Basically one book for all the "ancient" legion men who are still fighting from the beginning.

 

This would obviously have things we all missed with this dex:

1. Cult Terminators

2. Variant Land Raiders

3. Legion Specific Rules (minor themes, ala 3.5)

4. Some more Dark Mechanicus stuffz

5. More Daemon Weapons

 

My two cents.

[darknightdrako]

I just have a feeling that if a supplement comes out its gonna be the legions that do not have demon weapons in the current codex.

[Brother Ambroz]

Uh, why not just a Legions supplement. One special character per army that gives a veteran skill and something along the lines of if a jump pack/bike is taken X/Y become troops. Solves alot of problems, sure its definitely not perfect but it'd be a helluvalot better than what we have and have had.

[JeffJedi]

2 Books: Chaos Cults and Chaos Legions

 

The Cults cover the 4 Gods Cult Legions and the Chaos Legions Cover the 4 Undivided other than Black Legion.

 

Each book if broken into 4 parts. Each Legion gets a Character Upgrade or HQ if they lack one already. Each Legion gets a signature Squad type. Each get a few pieces of wargear and a tweaked FOC.

[daveNYC]

The 3.5 book managed to make people somewhat happy with just three pages for the cult legions (one page each of art, fluff, and crunch) and one page each for the undivideds.  That was going off of a main codex that hadn't been lombotomized though.

 

The big issue for me is that I don't think that GW is that into us.  The current codex just doesn't seem like there was that much effort put into it.  Especially when comparing the psyker powers between CSM and Eldar.  Then there's the fact that if GW really cared that much about CSM and the Legions, how exactly did they manage to put out the codex we have?  It's got new units that few if any were interested in having (dinobots, and the fact that they did mutilators instead of cult termis is just fuuuu), and the obvious stuff that Legion fans were asking for (cult termis, havoks, and dreads; special characters that lay out an armywide USR for undivided armies) wasn't even considered.  Add in that 1k Sons managed to get worse, Plagues got better ('cause they needed that boost), and 'zerkers seem to have been a dry run for Banshees, and all I can say is that while I'm hopeful that there will be Legion supplements that make us happy campers, I'm not sure that that will happen.  I'm not sure that GW is willing to put the effort into producing a supplement, and unless they've hired someone new (or someone old, hint), I don't think they have a vision of what they want CSM to be (other than a vehicle for Baledrake sales) nor do they have anyone there that interested in developing a vision for the army.

[Iron_Within]

I'm not going to derail the thread completely, but yes our codex seems like a lazy codex when compared to later codex's, but isn't that always the way? The first codex in each edition usually ends up losing out to later ones. Also, why Mutilators over cult Terminators? GW is a miniatures company that want to sell new and exciting products, cult terminators are not different enough from regular terminators, mutilators are. Mutilators are a case in point of a mess of production, terrible miniature, no though, obvious very bad cut and paste of previous model (obliterators). In my own industry I've seen it happen; bad management, cockups lead to cutting key area's of development and what you have is a mess of a product (like a software produced to replace the old one a few years ago that just didn't work and they still went and produced it). What happens is the following ones avoid these mistakes, but the error remains in our little hobby. It is quite robust in that way unfortunately, GW can afford to make such cockups and get away with it.

 

To bring this back to the topic. I get the feeling, and this includes myself, that a supplement codex, legions or cults or whatever would rectify the mistakes of the main codex; it won't. If you look at the Iyanden Codex, there are no new miniatures exclusive to Iyanden, it is flavour that changes the dynamic of the existing miniatures interaction placing a greater emphasis on Wraith units, there is nothing stopping a Uthwe player using this list other than our own interpretation on what is right and wrong. With that in mind you can see the model GW would want to use. There would be a few changes to special rules, there would be NO units that cannot be taken because that restricts options, there would unlikely be any special characters as that model is as likely to sell as Abaddon and co. What you would get is a new warlord table, a few unique special rules (such as the Wraithlords and Knights being able to be your Warlord and moving them to troops), and some replacement special equipment (most likely replacing the daemon weapons and the like, of course GW wouldn't want to replace the Juggernaut etc. as this would be restrictive). This of course is all theoretical as we've heard absolutely nothing about supplement codex's or even if Iyanden was a test or a one off, one does why the hell Biel-tan's swordwind wasn't represented, but I digress. Anyway you could possibly see something like this in the way army jiggery (note this is my own ideas):

 

AL: 

Warlord focussing on infiltrate and misdirection (e.g. remove a unit after deployment and deploy via outflank, Questionable Loyalties: Lord can inflict -1 Ld on one enemy unit, DS units do not scatter if in 6" of the Warlord)

Taking Marine Aspiring Champs for cultists.

Equipment focussing on nasty misdirection, perhaps similar to always on target deepstrikes ala ambushes. Icon of the Alpha Legion perhaps granting infiltrate.

IW:

Warpsmiths up powered

Ability to take Hellbrutes as Warlord.

Warlord traits focussing on tank hunting (the Lord and his unit gain armour bane once per game), blast weaponry (Blast weaponry can re-roll scatter dice if targeting same unit as Warlord, Once per game the Warlord can bring down a S8 AP3 large blast within LOS, full scatter) to into the breach type stuff (e.g. once per game +1 attack for everyone in  x inches/unit)

Equipment; Servo arms/mechandrites generally available and some other stuff. Icon of the Iron warriors may give a bonus to shooting (units firing together on the same unit gain preferred enemy - represents firepatterns).

NL:

Warlord Traits focussing on fear (Causes fear), nightfighting (can make it nightfighting the whole game), and speed (Gains scout), morale damaging stuff (-1 to all morale tests within x inches or for every model that the Warlord kills causes an additional -1), or CC gruesomeness (once per game all models have the Shred USR for CC). 

Equipment focussing on making fear tests harder, providing extra negatives to morale tests, e.g. torture racks. Maybe similar vehicle upgrades, NL Icon could give Fear and Night vision.

X number of Raptors troops.

WB:

Up powered Dark Apostle

Warlord Traits focussing on morale, religious stuff (e.g. once per game for every model the Warlord and unit kills creates a daemon  in it's place/ the Warlord may sacrifice a friendly model to the gods to regain a wound/roll on the boon table)

Equipment themed on religion, generating various focusses, could be more powerful than others but very double edged. e.g. Book of Lorgar allowing you to mimic a mark of Chaos each turn but risks the wrath of the gods each time you change (e.g. roll a D6 on a 1 or 2 you're spawned), Icon of WB while I'd like to say could give Zealot that would be way too powerful, I would say Crusader.

 

Those are just a few ideas I came up with off the fly. Hell I'd be tempted to write one myself.

[Smurfalypse]

lol no one would ever, even in fluffy games, use an item that has a 1/3rd chance of outright killing you. . . Not trying to be rude, but really glad they have their own devs cause stuff like that would have people swapping armies in a heartbeat.

[Fibonacci]

 A rhuberic rule that somehow makes 1ksons and their ilk worthwhile (reroll failed saves, more wounds, reanimation.. something) {snip} And please, NO MORE AV12 WALKERS!!

There is not really a person inside the armor.  It is a construct with dust inside.  A golem.  Make them AV 9 walkers, 1 HP, ignores glances (you have to actually poke a hole in the armor for the dust to be released.  5++ save but any unsaved penitrating hit is an automatic wreaked result.

 

Standard bolters would need 6's to penitrate but 1/3 would be negated.  They would be immune to posion, lasguns, standard human ccw.  Power fists, axes and mauls would cut them to pieces as would plasma, melta and krak missiles.  This way they would be easy enough to counter but still be terrifying to most rank and file troops; even tactical marines would try to avoid them.

 

Keep them in the same FOC slot.  Elite, Troop if you have a MoT lord.  Non-scoreing because they would be vehicles but the scorcerer would still be scoring.

[Ammonius]

Another good thing about Fibonacci's idea is that it would allow Rubrics to fire overwatch. I like it.

[Iron_Within]

lol no one would ever, even in fluffy games, use an item that has a 1/3rd chance of outright killing you. . . Not trying to be rude, but really glad they have their own devs cause stuff like that would have people swapping armies in a heartbeat.

You mean like the Dimensional Key and the Champion of Chaos rule?

I see your point though it is a little harsh considering I spent less than 3 seconds thinking something up only as an example rather than a final rule. Personally, I would say it should apply for the character and the unit he's with and perhaps only a roll of a 1 (also, I think you missed that it was only when you changed, not every turn, so if you stayed nurgle for the game it wouldn't kill you, that combined with Terminators or huge Marine blobs would be nasty and risky should you want a resilient T5 blob that charged with rage). Anyways, it was a suggestion for idea's more than anything else because I was bored.

I do like the idea of the Rubrics but I think it turns on it's head existing rules, and overrights the main codex. While personally I think that would be a good thing (because they are rubbish and not in keeping with what rubrics should in fluff), it's not going to happen. I always thought they were good when they were 2 wounds and immune to any shooting weapon S4 or weaker.

[arkagl]

4 Gods only, the others dont need one exept maybe night lords and that one is easy Raptors count as troops. The Iron Warriors can get their stuff from Allying with IG, Word Bearers get their stuff from Allying with Daemons. Alpha legion doesnt really need one and Black Legion is pretty much the main codex itself. I would say the 4 gods and their special equipment and stuff would be the only one needing a supplement. There isn't any other reason to do any undivided legions.

 

No reason for traitor guard you have IG make it part of their supplement.

[Kol Saresk]

EDIT: Not important.

 

Something sort of hit me. Weren't the IA articles a form of supplements? As well as 3.5 itself, after a fashion?

[Prot]

4 Gods only, the others dont need one exept maybe night lords and that one is easy Raptors count as troops. The Iron Warriors can get their stuff from Allying with IG, Word Bearers get their stuff from Allying with Daemons. Alpha legion doesnt really need one and Black Legion is pretty much the main codex itself. I would say the 4 gods and their special equipment and stuff would be the only one needing a supplement. There isn't any other reason to do any undivided legions.

 

No reason for traitor guard you have IG make it part of their supplement.

 

No offense meant by this but I think you're missing the point. "There isn't any other reason to day any undivided legions" is a short sighted comment though. There are a great deal of reasons to do any undivided legion, BUT the most important one has to be financial or else let's be honest here, we won't get one otherwise.

 

Conversely with your frame of mind we could literally apply that to any offshoot army in the game: Black Templars? No reason, just give them 20 man close combat scouts as troops. Blood Angels? No reason, give them a squad with feel no pain. This could go on and on which leads us to what we have right now.... A rather 'vanilla' codex representing all possible factions and military styles.

[arkagl]

Knowing GW through it'll prob be something stupid like just one chapter and it'll be Huron's Chapter.

 

Prot - give me a reason why any undivided legions should when space marines only get the rare outcasts of the Chapters like Blood Angels and Space Wolves pretty much equaled to the Chaos Gods. The undivided legions have their codex its the main codex.

 

Since Codex 3.5 they've given every undivided chapter what they were missing:

 

Word Bearers have a dark apostle and in the fluff the can summon a ton of daemons which they can with Allies.

 

Iron Warriors are machine and tech heavy a play can take Obliterators at full 3 units with no 0-1 limit and can ally with IG to get their Basilisks. They will never just give you a basilisk in a chaos army that would require 2 codexes. You can also take fortifications which to me is toward the iron warrior side of the codex.

 

Alpha Legion had cultists which they introduced in this codex. (maybe add them to the supplement to give them infiltrate)

 

Night Lords have Raptors and now have Warp Talons with no 0-1 limit. Black Legion doesnt need one bc your chosen become troops. (maybe add them to the supplement and give them raptors as troops)

 

The 4 god chapters are what have been given nothing since then.

 

On a side note, I havent read the Eldar supplement, but I'd just say why not make one supplement and make it more organize and make it similar to how the 3.5 back of the book is. Just 2-4 page description for each chapter and have 1 supplement. It would just add more options and wargear for units. I mean at 4 pages thats only 16 for the big 4 so prob 20 pages would due and it would have all the extras fluff stuff.

[Brother Ambroz]

Arkagl, that's a very narrow minded view of what the undivided legions should look like. Every one of those legions can be interpreted very differently, the Alpha Legion and Night Lords are easier to point out. Jumppack does not equal Night Lord, fear veteran skills should equal a Night Lord but even that's open to interpretation. To say that Alpha Legion equals cultists is pretty bad too, cultists are much fluffier for Word Bearers than Alpha Legion. Alpha Legion is all about covert/spec ops, using highly trained mortals to perform various tasks, attacking from all sorts of different angles etc. Iron Warriors are much better represented than almost every other chaotic force in this codex. Word Bearers, eh, they've got cultists and ways to get a 4++ save, a good daemon weapon.....only thing that could be better represented is their crazed devotion to the dark gods.

 

Sure, the various subfactions of C:SM could be better represented, but you've also got what....3 other codex books you could choose from for SM? Three codex books to choose from without people balking at you and laughing (as someone might if you were playing World Eaters with C:SW). You've even got some special characters that give you x, y or z if you take them.

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, not important.

[Vesper]

 

fear veteran skills should equal a Night Lord

And night vision.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

fear veteran skills should equal a Night Lord

And night vision.

 

 

Eh, it's sort of secondary. If they had a way of forcing Night Fighting, it might be worth worrying about. But as a Night Lords player, I'd want to focus on Fear, Outflank, Infiltrate/Stealth, and if we can force Night Fighting, Night Vision as well. Maybe the ideal would be Fear, Outflank and Stealth, with a secondary rule where we have to roll a D6 before the game(not sure if before or after deployment would be better) and if we get 4+, we can force Night Fighting and gain Infiltrate on all Infantry units that are deployed in the first turn or something like that.

 

For Alpha Legion, some way to upgrade the Cultists into "operatives", like maybe limit their numbers but in a tradeoff, gain access to better/more upgrades. Infiltrate can still be a thing, but it shouldn't be the focus. They also need something to show that they aren't always playing CIA/Ninjutsu, even they take to the field of battle proper once in a while and they should have that too.

 

Word Bearers, again not sure what to do with these guys. Need a Word Bearers' players opinion on that one. Maybe they can rack in some buffs for the Possessed and Warp Talons for something like a Gal Vorbak army. Maybe some sort of "Prayer" or "Hymn" upgrades to replace Marks and Icons. If we're going to go "Legion", then we need something to represent the Legions, including something more than "They all have daemonic shock troops" when part of the background is "Every Host is different depending on the wishes of their Dark Apostles". So ideas from the Word Bearers would be welcome on this part.

 

Iron Warriors, they should be more than just an option to get Basilisks and Obliterators, even if artillery and siege warfare is their signature. Maybe some option to have upgrades for Spawn to turn them into mini-Maulers as well as soon buffs for the Walkers. Bionics again maybe something to make the Mutilators better, something to show a "Heavy Infantry/Armor" theme, not "Tech and Siege". Any ideas on how to bring out a Dark Mechanicus theme?

 

Black Legion. Toughie. The mainstream Codex pretty much hits the fact that they have unlimited access to all Cult Units, and the mainstream Black Legionnaire is either a veteran of the very worst(or very best, depending on your point of view) of the Legion Wars, or they are someone who Abaddon is willing to trust to get the job done, even if it is kamikaze style. They need something to show that beyond "Oh you get scoring Chosen". Maybe Vesper can help out on that front.

 

And there should be more for the Cult Legions than "Oh yeah, you're entire army is now a step above Mark. You graduated kiddie school. Congratulations."

 

Still, the point stands that the Night Lords are more than just "Raptors". Just like the Iron Warriors are more than just "Obliterators". And the Alpha Legion is more than just "Infiltrate". And the Word Bearers are more than just "Daemons" and so on so forth. But if one unit is all that's needed to represent an entire faction, then hey, this Codex is perfect since even the Cult Legions have their "signature" units.

[Nehekhare]

wishlisting is boring.

[Kol Saresk]

Not important.

[minigun762]

Has this thread run it's course?

Has all that needs to be said been said?

[zyl-]

I would think that putting out good legion rules would sell itself. If someone decides to go IW because the new rules are interesting, that's going to be sales happening because now they probably will get more interested in painting some IW. Of course more use for some units would help.. seems like a good business idea to me. Of course everyone can't be satisfied, but I think the company can satisfy enough people to satisfy their wallets.