Deathwing Knights gaining viability?

[L30n1d4s]

So, with the last two codexes released (Tau, Eldar), is there an emerging trend in which DW Knights are becoming more and more viable for competitive play?

 

The biggest complaint people have about them is their lack of AP3 or better weapons (except for one round of combat), but I think the new trends might be starting to make this less of a factor.

 

What DW Knights bring to the table are:

-Very high durability (T5 when BTB, 2+/3++ saves) which are not dependent on cover saves. Given how these new books have multiple ways to ignore cover (Tau MLs, Tau Commander MSS, Eldar psychic abilities, Dark Reaper rangefinders to ginore Jink, etc.), a unit that has strong survivability without them is going to be quite valuable. Even the new "bladestorm" ability on Shuriken weapons, DW Knights are very hard to take down... 2/3 to hit on BS4, 1/6 to "quasi-rend", 1/3 to faill 3++ .... that's 27 shots to kill a single DW knight, or about double the number of shots to kill a normal terminator.

 

-Reliable, controllable DSing.... being able to choose the time (turn 1 or 2, guaranteed) means you can potentially out maneuver the slippery xenos forces and come in when and where they don't expect or are not ready for you. Combine this with either Belial (for no scatter) or RW Teleporter Homers and you can bring that DW Knight unit in exactly where you want it and where the Eldar/Tau player does not. Nothing ruins a Tau gun line set-up quicker than a group of angry space warrior monks with giant maces, energy shields, and tactical dreadnought armor landing 2" behind their backline Missileside team with attached Neurtide chip Commander.... all those S7 AP4 shots aren't going to do much for them now, are they?! ;)

 

Similarly, if mobility is the Eldar center of gravity, you can kick the legs out from underneath their chair by precisely dropping a team of DW Knights right in front of that War Walker Squadron that is packing 24 scatter laser shots... no amount of running around is going to hamper the terminators from charging that unit down.

 

-Fearless and Precision Strikes -- Despite all the Xenos firepower and potential mobility, DW Knights will never run due to Inner Circle, making them even more of a Relentless threat, and when they do come to grips with the enemy, they can allocate enough precision attacks to rip down the key character holding a unit together (i.e. Warlock, Farseer, Tau Commander, Ethereal, etc.). These two elements have a direct effect in game, but perhaps even more importantly, they have a pyschological impact on your opponent.... not being able to break your morale or slip his characters away means he will have to spend excess energy/anxiety worried about the DW Termies that just dropped in his face.

 

-Close combat....since DW Terminators are at a disadvantage against MEQs (except for CSM, of couse), many consider them less than optimal in close combat. Well, against pretty much all Eldar CC units, their ability to be S10 AP2 one turn, while still having a 2+/3++, is more than enough to crush them down, eve including the new Wraithblades. Against Tau, or any non-CC oriented Xenos troops, it is not even a contest, whether the DW Knights use their Smite ability that turn or not. S6 AP4 will tear through the majority of competitive units in either codex, particullarly since they strike at WS5 and initiative 4. Also, given that the Knight Master has an AP3 weapon, even those Xenos leaders with a 3+ save (Exarch, Crises Suits, Wraithguard, etc) will go down quickly. Finally, all of the weapons are Concussive, so Eldar/Tau characters that suffer a wound will be striking at I1 next turn, making the DW Knights even more effective in close combat as they fight progresses.

 

 

Now, I am not saying that DW Knights are the next deathstar unit or that they have completely changed, but I sense that the meta-game is chaning with these new codexes and I wonder if, over time, we done't see more and more DA players using them in competitive, all-comers lists.

 

Thoughts?

[jeremy1391]

All valid points I would say.

[Pbenner]

I was thinking along the same line.  Someone else with similar thoughts means either we're both crazy, or... well...

 

I'm going to have to get mine painted now.  I wasn't planning on doing them for the ETL, but they may hit the painting board.  

[Interrogator Stobz]

You didn't factor in the Tau volume of S5 fire(or I didn't notice), while we have great at 2+ we will start to roll ones and will get torrented off the paddock as always.
Also don't forget they have unit(s?) with Interceptor to really bug the hell out of our DWA.
The Tau player I face has all his infantry units in transports with 4+ cover saves and they are harder to open up than you'd think, DWK are pretty good; resiliant and facepunchie to anything they catch, but there is the problem...catching something worthwhile.
I use DW and RW deathstars to lure the squishy contents out of transports for my Whirlwinds to cull, seems to work much of the time but eventually my opponents will figure it out

s

Edit: another problem with charging Tau is every unit within 6" will overwatch you to death as well. Better off shooting the Buggers.

[jeremy1391]

Stobz I also have to take into account the shield wall, being wounded on 4+ is a lot better than 3+ from pulse weapons, and eldar and marines need 5+ to wound with standard weapons :)

[Dirrain]

@Stobz - Agree with you that mech lists are one of the worst match ups for DW.Since the ruling that says you can't split fire and blow the transport and then shoot the troops that spill out, if your opponent starts in a fully mech list, we're in trouble. However, I disagree that shooting Tau is better then charging them. Trying to outshoot THE shooty army is insane! DWKs are more survivable then normal terminators, the T5 indeed helps a lot. Plus you'll have thinned out the FW squads (hopefully) from the rest of your army anyway. Overwatch from 3 half strength squads isn't as scary as you'd think.

[Tiger9gamer]

So today at my GW, a guy was going on and on about the Wraithknight. So I decided to do something.

 

He and I got some proxies and set them on the table, him a vanilla wraithnight, and me 5 knights. I won inititive roll, I moved forward and survived it's overwatch. I charged, took no wounds from his attacks, and smited the damnned thing off the board.

 

 

"I could have jumped away" he wined. 

 

I only smiled.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah, I haven't played against Eldar yet but Tau overwatching with three 12 man squads and some battlesuit units should be able to neuter most assaults from DW units in general. I agree that one on one the DWK will mop up but the synergy and defensive tool the Tau now bring are mighty formidable. I'm not running off crying broken but assault units such as DWK can really struggle against a canny Tau opponent. Shooting them from close range is also risky but for me so far has shown better results.

Edit: I got halfway through typing that response when RL interrupted and two more replies got added , mostly it still stands though.

DWK are great against many units/armies but I'm not a fan of asaulting massed Tau.

Obviously everyones milage will vary

[Dirrain]

No argument from me that if you assault massed Tau, you're going to have a bad day...

[oldmanlee]

ive said from day one they are better than people think. im now trying to fit them in my ravenwing force. as my black knights have done jack in the ten games ive used them just not sure if i want to put them in a land raider or deep strike them? 

[elphilo]

I love my Deathwing Knights. Though, just like all other Terminators, they die to volume of firep and that T5 doesn't help too much when staring at a blob squad of IG/Tau overwatch. But I still love them and use them in every DA list I write.

As to Deep Strike or Land Raider? If you have the points, Land Raider. People aren't taking melta spam in this edition and the vehicle rules have really helped the Land Raider be more sturdy. Huzzah no more glancing explosions! In every edition since 3rd my Land Raiders have blown up Turn 1 due to a glancing hit. Every. Single. Game. But now in 6th edition with Hull Points I don't have to worry about that

[Dillithium]

I think the biggest problem with DWK is getting them in their first combat. Once they're in their first combat they can kill, consolidate, charge again, rinse and repeat. But with DWA they're subject to a 100 shots before you can even move. The best way is probably a land raider. But you want 6 knights(or more, depending on the type of LR) inside that thing to make it viable. Guess what your opponent will want to blow up first. The 500+ point meatcarrier that's impossible to miss.

 

I love them, but you need balls to put them on the table. They might not always make combat, which is something you need to consider when selecting the rest of your army.

in 1500 points I wouldn't use them, 1999+1 is probably the only real point number where you can try using a land raider full of them competitively. Because you'll still have 13-1400 points of Deathwing left to fight with if all goes to hell in turn one/two.

[facmanpob]

Now that my DWK are finally painted I'm planning to take them in my next game.....which will be using Ravenwing with DWK support. I like the idea of going 2nd, and bringing them via DWA on the bottom of turn 2, by which time my RW should have thinned the enemy ranks a bit, hopefully preventing the "everyone fire at the DWK" scenario. I mainly play against CSM, so the DWK go from being very good to awesome.....AP3 on all weapons (AP2 on the flail), with rerolls due to Preferred Enemy

[Dirrain]

Sometimes you might consider the sheer amount of fire they draw as worth the 235 points you pay for them. I've played games where the opponent uses his entire turn shooting 5 knights with everything he's got while the rest of my DWTs shred his stuff. 5 DWKs are incredibly resilient to template weaponry. (They still die pretty fast to mass torrent fire though)

 

Good luck with fielding the knights in your next game facmanpob! Knights are ridiculous against CSMs. I've taken down a Khorne lord + Chaos Terminator retinue with 3 smiting knights before. Sadly the 2 surviving knights died to 40 cultists. Oh well. The VP from slay the warlord won me the game 5-4 so I can't really complain. 

[Isiah]

It's a toss-up whether DWKs or RWBKs are the best new units to come out of the DA codex - depending on your army build of course. DWKs would get my vote.

 

Just a shame a special character can't modify them to make them scoring.